East Lake - The new greens

[BCrosby]

For you turfheads out there, EL sprigged its new Bermuda greens one month ago. They started cutting them late last week. Talk about your fast grow-in.

People at EL seem to be confident that by the time of the Tour Championship in late September, their greens will be well established and fast as hell.

I am amazed at how quickly you can convert to Bermuda greens. The stuff gallops across properly prepared dirt.

Bob 

[Bill_McBride]

Bob, did they plant the Champion variety?  That is some great grass and from what little I've seen, does grow in very quickly.

From what I've heard the drawback is very high maintenance, which shouldn't be a problem a East Lake.

Did they rip out the zoysia fairways too?

[Chris Cupit]

mini verde I believe.

[Bryan_Pennington]

Does anyone have a good cost estimate (either per average size green or per square foot) of the cost to convert from bent to the new bermuda grasses (not rebuild the greens, just switch-out the grasses).  Also, what is the anticipated down time from gassing the greens to having playable surfaces assuming you are in the South (North Carolina).

[JMEvensky]

We re-grassed our greens in Memphis from Penncross to Champion 2 years ago.The greens were gassed on 5 July and we opened back up on Labor Day.

I can't remember our square footage,but the greens are "large-ish".All in,the cost was ~ $110,000 for 20 greens.

[Tom_Doak]

JM:  It can happen that fast but no greenkeeper would volunteer such a timetable ... giving it less than 3 or 4 months to mature is asking for trouble from traffic wear the first season.  It's five months for bentgrass.

[Don_Mahaffey]

It's not at all unusual to start cutting grass three weeks after sprigging. You want to get on them as soon as you can as mowing helps trains the plant to grow horizontally instead of vertically.
No till bermuda conversions can go quick because the soil/sand is firmer then a new green meaning you can start rolling soon after planting and the rootzone already has the organics that retains water and nutrients. I have no ideal if East lake went with a no till but I wouldn't be surprised if they did, especially if they wanted to save the green contours.

It is my belief that in the south it takes one full growing season before the turf is "grown-in". Sure you can get it covered in a month and you can play on it shortly after. We always hear stories how some course grew-in in 40 days...but being 100% covered and forming a high quality sward of turf are two different things.

With almost 4 months of growing season I have no doubt at all that the greens at East Lake will be great for the tour. That's plenty of time to get them ready.

In JM's case 60 days is pushing it and lots of things have to go right, especially the weather as just one heavy thunderstorm during establishment can really set back your time table.

[BCrosby]

We did a study at my club in ATL on converting. The costs of installing Bermuda can be recouped in maintenance savings in about two years. I thought that was stunning. Even assuming our super was being too optimistic, three years would be terrific.

The issue we are debating now is the winter-kill threat. We are being told that any time the temp drops below 23 degrees, we'll need to take steps to cover greens.

Is that the consensus view?

Bob

[JMEvensky]

JM:  It can happen that fast but no greenkeeper would volunteer such a timetable ... giving it less than 3 or 4 months to mature is asking for trouble from traffic wear the first season.  It's five months for bentgrass.

I didn't mean to imply that we were at 100% on Labor Day,just that we could play on them without harm.The greens were very shaggy and bumpy until the following mid-summer.It's only now,2 years into the process,that our greens are "perfect".

Don Mahaffey,you're 100% correct.Our's was a "no-till" and the weather was perfect for the re-grassing-hot as hell and very little rain.The stars lined up perfectly for us.

BCrosby,the maintenance dividend is mostly a myth.My guess is it's being pushed by those in favor of re-grassing.We haven't found much,if any,reduced costs nor has anyone else in town.Seems like it's more of a shifting of costs from summer to winter.

The above said,I'm told Atlanta is actually very different from Memphis weather-wise.So,YMMV.

[Brent Hutto]

BCrosby,the maintenance dividend is mostly a myth.My guess is it's being pushed by those in favor of re-grassing.We haven't found much,if any,reduced costs nor has anyone else in town.Seems like it's more of a shifting of costs from summer to winter.

Is part of the summer-to-winter cost shift due to overseeding? Because I certainly can't see how Bermuda plus a yearly overseed with Poa Triv or whatever could end up cheaper in total than the maintenance of bentgrass. OTOH, if you just let 'em go dormant and maybe put paint on them there's not a lot of winter maintenance involved.

Or maybe I misunderstand how it works with bentgrass in the winter...

[BCrosby]

As presented to us, the greens would be painted in winter. No over-seeding.

In terms of maintenance dividend, the pitch we heard was that you (i) eliminate fans (we have lots), (ii) eliminate hand watering in the heat of the day, and (iii) reduce the frequency of punching greens.

Help me get a handle on the increase in maintenance in the dormant months. Expenses of protecting greens from winter-kill will count. What else am I missing?

Bob

[Don_Mahaffey]

We did a study at my club in ATL on converting. The costs of installing Bermuda can be recouped in maintenance savings in about two years. I thought that was stunning. Even assuming our super was being too optimistic, three years would be terrific.

The issue we are debating now is the winter-kill threat. We are being told that any time the temp drops below 23 degrees, we'll need to take steps to cover greens.

Is that the consensus view?

Bob

Compared to bent in the south what the ultradwarfs give you is peace of mind in that you know you’re not going to ever lose your greens...at least that's the way I see it. Get a few tough summers in a row and it seems like you’re always in the recovery mode with bent. IMO, bent is tougher to manage because you get few second chances when the stress is on, but I don't see how the ultradwarfs are lower maintenance. Fewer chemicals, yes, less work, I don't think so. Lots of thatch management and they can be just as mean to you if you let them get away from you.

As far as winter kill, I've never worked east of TX, but my bermuda has come through single digit temps in both AZ and north TX. I think it takes a combination of weather factors before you get widespread winter kill. The occasional low temp in the teens is not going to be a problem. Throw in freezing precip or extended cold snaps with no warm up and you may have something to worry about. 

[JMEvensky]

We had fans and we hand watered the bent,as well.

So far,we've seen no decrease in chemical expenditures(price rise is probably a factor).As for labor,we now must keep enough people on-call during the winter to cover the greens in case the temps fall below ~ 25*(wait until you price the tarps).These things are thatch machines-I wish we could aerify 2x a summer.

For us,the deciding factor was that Champion provided the best surface during our peak golf season-June,July,August.While the bent was great during the spring and fall,summer was always a struggle to keep the greens just mediocre.

In Memphis,there's no perfect grass.Our temps are too extreme in each direction.So far,Champion seems to be the best compromise available at a cost we're willing to pay.

[BCrosby]

We had fans and we hand watered the bent,as well.

So far,we've seen no decrease in chemical expenditures(price rise is probably a factor).As for labor,we now must keep enough people on-call during the winter to cover the greens in case the temps fall below ~ 25*(wait until you price the tarps).These things are thatch machines-I wish we could aerify 2x a summer.

For us,the deciding factor was that Champion provided the best surface during our peak golf season-June,July,August.While the bent was great during the spring and fall,summer was always a struggle to keep the greens just mediocre.

In Memphis,there's no perfect grass.Our temps are too extreme in each direction.So far,Champion seems to be the best compromise available at a cost we're willing to pay.

Thanks JM. That is very helpful.

Bob

[Bill_McBride]

Bob, when we stopped overseeding at Pensacola CC, we talked about painting the greens. No need, everyone is happy with the dormant Tifdwarf, it's a great winter surface.

[BCrosby]

Bill -

I don't doubt the surface is great. Our members are worried about the dormant look. Did you guys get any push-back on that?

Bob

[Bill_McBride]

Bill -

I don't doubt the surface is great. Our members are worried about the dormant look. Did you guys get any push-back on that?

Bob

We didn't overseed two greens one winter, and did paint them.

Nobody liked the paint too much, while the lack of any transition problems (which we formerly had in abundance) made it easy to decide to forgo any overseeding.  No complaints since about the brown color of the dormant bermuda.  It really isn't that brown, still some sort of green color.

You are one climate zone north of us but I still think okay not overseeding.  We got good advice from the turf management guru at Mississippi State who said that we should not fret about losing the greens even if we got a freeze once in a while.

[Brent Hutto]

A few miles east of you in Columbia, SC we don't overseed the greens but we do paint them. I hear an occasional complaint about them getting a little beat up by February/March (we get a good many rounds in the winter) but I think budget aside people appreciate the lack of transition problems that most clubs in town have, especially in the spring. But if we didn't paint I think there would be some complaints.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Bob,

Around DFW, they cover the greens any time the temps are projected near 32, not 23. Don't know if that is a typo on your part.  A few high end courses will even cover starting closer to 40 degrees just to be safe.

One super said chemical savings from bent to bermuda was at least $30K.  Electricity for fans, etc. hand labor, etc. all extra.

[BCrosby]

Jeff -

Interesting. Our experts said 23 degrees. From the posts above it sounds like the spread of temperatures calling for green coverage is pretty wide. Ranging from 40 degrees to single digits. Am thoroughly confused.

Bob

[JMEvensky]

Jeff -

Interesting. Our experts said 23 degrees. From the posts above it sounds like the spread of temperatures calling for green coverage is pretty wide. Ranging from 40 degrees to single digits. Am thoroughly confused.

Bob

A lot of the when-to-cover decision for us is a combination of safety first and the feeling that it's just not really worth the extra effort to placate a handful of members who want to play in <35* weather.Also,our greens are only in their second year and we didn't want to take any chances.As we learn a little more and the greens mature,my guess is we'll play a little looser with a danger zone temp.

[Brent Hutto]

I forget what hybrid our greens are but it's maybe TifDwarf or TifEagle. Anyway, I have never seen the greens covered and doubt that we own any tarps. With 27 greens and none of them particularly small I'd guess covers would cost a small fortune. Last year we did have a couple of unfortunate greens with small areas of what I heard referred to as "winter kill" but that was less than half a dozen greens and as far as I recall none of them had more than 10-15% of the green surface affected.

We usually get at least one cold spell per winter with a couple nights in a row down in the low to mid 20's (although typically getting above freezing during the day) and it is not unheard of to get an odd morning of 18-19 degrees in January or February. So that 23 degrees recommendation must be to stay away from even a chance of some patchy winter kill. Then again we don't get much ice, maybe one storm a year at most that would put down ice that doesn't melt off by the next afternoon, if that.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Covers are a major pain and if you’re in a windy area...forget about easily putting them down at the end of the day and then removing prior to play the next day.  I can only imagine the nightmare for courses with covers in DFW when a strong North wind blows in. I've seen a strong north wind blow off covers on new greens when the cover edges were buried in trenches. All it takes is a little wind getting under them and off they go. 

Courses that cover when temps get down close to freezing are not trying to protect against winter kill as much as they are trying to prevent the grass from going totally dormant...which IMO, is a losing battle in areas that get many frost days during the winter.

Protecting from winter kill and trying to prevent dormancy are two completely different issues. The bermudas are not that susceptible to winter kill, but they will go dormant during cold snaps.

[BCrosby]

Don -

Great stuff Don.

My guess is that preventing dormancy in Atlanta will be a losing battle. At 1000+ feet, we get lots of freezes. If you add the costs of applying and removing tarps any time its around freezing, that's a lot of man-hours for a very marginal benefit.

The 23 degree rule as a threshold for winterkill risk in our area is starting to sound like it makes sense. Disagree?

Bob

 

[Kris Spence]

Bob, Im currently working with the Memphis CC on restoration of their 1910 Ross designed course.  They have some of the finest Champion Bermuda greens, or any type green I have ever seen.  You should give Rod Lingle their supt a call about his programs, I know he hasn't lost any bermuda in 20 years, covers the greens with double tarps at 24 or 25 degrees(5 to 7 days this past winter I think) I cant remember which and was featured on the cover of the USGA Green Section for his technique of painting for winter color. 


My experience with Rod and the MCC has completely changed my approach to grass selection.  I believe we will see a major swing to Champion and possibly Mini Verde, TifEagle etc at more of the high end clubs throughout the Carolinas/SE in the years to come.

We are sprigging Champion at Furman University Golf Course next week in Greenville SC and I expect several others to follow suit.  Im fielding many inquiries from clients concerning the decision between bermuda and bent.

Good Luck