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Richard Hetzel

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Re: Landfill Golf Courses
« Reply #25 on: July 13, 2008, 11:23:29 PM »
I was speaking more to the landfill variety since I played The Phoenix (BTW Tim, nice course). It seems that there are many variables involved that occur due to the settling. Very intersting from an engineering standpoint. Didn't they have a collapse there at the Phoenix and if so, how was it repaired?
 
I hope to get over to play Twisted Gun in West Virginia next month.That was a mining site that had to be either returned to it's original form or into usuable green space, hence the golf course. I can't wait, it could be the highlight of my summer, more so than Forest Dunes or the Gailes which I play next week in Michigan.
Best Played So Far This Season:
Crystal Downs CC (MI), The Bridge (NY), Canterbury GC (OH), Lakota Links (CO), Montauk Downs (NY), Sedge Valley (WI)

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Landfill Golf Courses
« Reply #26 on: July 14, 2008, 03:10:11 AM »
Adrain,

Earlier you described a landfill course as

"It is inert landfill though, subsoils dug from another site, which we use to model the dull land to form the course."

Was the soils contaminated?  Where you allowed to excavate?

That sounds like a typical golf course project in Florida!  You dig ponds to generate dirt to build features. 

Black Rock in Hingham, MA was built with soil from the Boston's Big Dig tunnel project.  Excavation was by blasting that generated crushed rock for the highway project.       
Tim- Inert Landfill is non contaminated, normally it is excess spoil from housing projects, road constructions and can be anything from clay through to rock. On a number of occasions the money generated from receiving the 'fill' is enough to build the course, sometimes there is even enough for the clubhouse build too.... that means a cheap course and not always a bad one. 
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

W.H. Cosgrove

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Re: Landfill Golf Courses
« Reply #27 on: July 14, 2008, 09:31:29 AM »
Newcastle, just outside of Seattle is a Coal mine, turned landfill(including the I-90 bridge, that sunk into Lake Washington), turned 36 hole layout by R. Cupp. 

The golf isn't tremendous but the views are awesome.

John Moore II

Re: Landfill Golf Courses
« Reply #28 on: July 14, 2008, 09:54:43 AM »
I hinted at this before, but I would assume that the initial purchase price of say 100 acres of landfill (or mine or other brownfield) would be somewhat cheaper than the same size of normal land? That would seem to offset some, if not most, of the costs associated with the fill necessary to construct the course. I would think a landfill or other 'useless' land site would be a fair place to build a course from a land cost perspective.

Lester George

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Re: Landfill Golf Courses
« Reply #29 on: July 14, 2008, 10:52:45 AM »
Lamberts Point Golf Course, Norfolk, Virginia

Check out this short video.

Lester

http://www.lambertspointgolf.com/video/lpoint.avi


Doug Ralston

Re: Landfill Golf Courses
« Reply #30 on: July 14, 2008, 11:27:26 AM »
I was speaking more to the landfill variety since I played The Phoenix (BTW Tim, nice course). It seems that there are many variables involved that occur due to the settling. Very intersting from an engineering standpoint. Didn't they have a collapse there at the Phoenix and if so, how was it repaired?
 
I hope to get over to play Twisted Gun in West Virginia next month.That was a mining site that had to be either returned to it's original form or into usuable green space, hence the golf course. I can't wait, it could be the highlight of my summer, more so than Forest Dunes or the Gailes which I play next week in Michigan.


Rich;

Twisted Gun is fun, and the site is incredibly remote. But for a far better remake of a strip mined site, go to Prestonsburg, KY and play Stonecrest. I liked the views at TG only slightly better [both are WOW!], but Stonecrest is far better golfwise.

For a view look at the picture on this thread:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=35471.0

Doug









 
 
 









Chris_Blakely

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Re: Landfill Golf Courses
« Reply #31 on: July 14, 2008, 12:04:06 PM »
Lamberts Point Golf Course, Norfolk, Virginia

Check out this short video.

Lester

http://www.lambertspointgolf.com/video/lpoint.avi



Lester,

Funny you should mention this course as I just played it this weekend.  Absolutely loved it, I took a ton of photos and I will post them on this site later.  One of the best 9 hole courses I have ever played.  Very scenic course on the Elizabeth River.

Chris

Scott Weersing

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Re: Landfill Golf Courses
« Reply #32 on: July 14, 2008, 12:34:46 PM »
Another landfill course is River Ridge Golf Course in Oxnard, CA. It was built in 1986 and had 13 of the 18 holes atop a landfill. The course was redone from 1996 to 1998. And then they expanded to 36 holes this year when they added more holes to an adjacent landfill.

To avoid the problems of top soil, they were able to add 14 feet of topsoil to the landfill. Where did they get so much soil? They were building a new harbor just down the road and so all the soil was dumped next to the landfill. Then for six months, they trucked the soil up to the top of the landfill.

I have not played the new courses as they have taken holes from the old course and added it to the new course. The views from the landfill are nice and the ocean breezes make an impact.


Ian Larson

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Re: Landfill Golf Courses
« Reply #33 on: July 14, 2008, 12:59:30 PM »
I was on a D6 and excavator at Bayonne Golf Club during the capping and construction. A very expensive and interesting project. It was initially rough shaped with the garbage, then roughed shaped even more with dredgings from the New York Harbor. Methane collection system put in and then capped with topsoil. Drainage and irrigation followed the final shaping. This turned out to be a great course but I dont have fond memories of working on that site due to the dredge and garbage.

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re: Landfill Golf Courses
« Reply #34 on: July 14, 2008, 01:48:15 PM »
I believe that Stockley Park near Heathrow Airport is built on a former rubbish dump. It's one of the very few (3 if you include his contribution to Celtic Manor) Robert Trent Jones Senior courses in the UK and I have to say that I think it is a good course.

There's a course on a former rubbish tip just outside Sandbach, Cheshire, called Malkins Bank. I believe that Hawtree had something to do with it, but it's a municipal and kept in very poor condition. Most of it is unmemorable but there are two utterly eccentric holes on the back nine that I cannot believe anyone ever designed. But it is cheap and therefore gets many people playing that would have no chance on private courses.

John Foley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Landfill Golf Courses
« Reply #35 on: July 14, 2008, 02:06:06 PM »
What about Santa Clara CA Municipal?
Integrity in the moment of choice

tlavin

Re: Landfill Golf Courses
« Reply #36 on: July 14, 2008, 02:07:13 PM »
We could come up with a list of courses that would be better as landfills.

Lester George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Landfill Golf Courses
« Reply #37 on: July 14, 2008, 02:31:22 PM »
Chris,

Thanks for the comments.  I look forward to your pictures.  Please e-mail them to me at: lester@georgegolfdesign.com

I was there a month ago and I was really pleased at how they were maintaining it.

Lester

Chris_Blakely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Landfill Golf Courses
« Reply #38 on: July 14, 2008, 03:18:39 PM »
Chris,

Thanks for the comments.  I look forward to your pictures.  Please e-mail them to me at: lester@georgegolfdesign.com

I was there a month ago and I was really pleased at how they were maintaining it.

Lester

Lester,

I will send them to you.  There are a lot.  I will not post all of them, just a selection.  I thought the routing was terrific and  great for that site.  Not many courses have that many holes along the water (Elizabeth River).  I read that the par 5 third is considered one of the best holes in the Hampton Roads area:

http://hamptonroads.com/node/67731

Here are three pictures from Lamberts Point GC (Norfolk, VA):

Par 5 - 3rd Hole:



Green on the driveable par 4 - 5th Hole:



Looking back on par 4 - 6th Hole:



I will start a separate thread later,

Chris

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Landfill Golf Courses
« Reply #39 on: July 14, 2008, 04:40:48 PM »
I can name quite a few that should be made a landfill....... ;D
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Jay Flemma

Re: Landfill Golf Courses
« Reply #40 on: July 14, 2008, 05:24:46 PM »
Nobody has mentioned Bayonne Golf Club in this thread, perhaps the most highly praised and architecturally compelling of "landfill golf courses".

I believe BGC accepted contaminated New York Harbor dredgings as fill, for which the developer was paid.

Building these 100 ft tall dunes with clean fill would probably have made the cost prohibitively high.


As usual Voytek you're spot on and NYCentric to boot.  Bayonne is a triumph.  Run, dont walk...and see you on the first tee... ;D

Now if they'd just change the routing and start her at what is now number 14...

Scott Weersing

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Re: Landfill Golf Courses
« Reply #41 on: July 16, 2008, 03:15:14 PM »
I was wondering, what else can be built atop a former landfill and create revenue?

The city of West Covina realized that building a golf course atop their landfill would not be the best idea:

http://www.whittierdailynews.com/news/ci_9892915

West Covina shelves plan to build golf course
By Jennifer McLain, Staff Writer

WEST COVINA - City officials have shelved plans to transform portions of the former BKK landfill into an 18-hole public golf course.

The move came earlier this month after predictions that construction of the course would be another financial thorn in the city's already struggling budget.

"The fiscal impact to build it would result in a negative cashflow to the city," said Public Works Director Shannon Yauchzee. "When it was conceived five years ago, construction costs were half of what they are today, the economy was booming, and golf was more popular than ever."

The City Council on July 1 rejected a round of bids for the 18-hole course, with construction costs ranging from $32 million to $40 million.

Elsie Messman, who attended the meeting along with other residents in opposition to the course, said she would prefer to see nothing done with the land for now - especially since the city approved a budget last month with a $2 million deficit.

"We don't have the money," Messman said. "By the way, we have seven golf courses in the area. How many more do we need?"

One of the courses, Industry Hills, is located less than two miles south the proposed site.

Craig Kessler, executive director of the Public Links Golf Association of Southern California, said that the proximity to other golf courses isn't necessarily telling of the success of a course.

"Any facility which has a good value to price correlation can be successful," Kessler said.
But with construction costs of the course as high as they were projected for the West Covina course, greens fees in the range of $30 to $50 could be possible, Kessler said.

The concept for a golf course has long been part of the city's plans for development on the former landfill. It is the last phase of the West Covina Sportsplex.

"It has always been a component," said City Manager Andrew Pasmant. "But there are so many components to the project. We are slowly working our way up there toward the golf course."

Big League Dreams, a sports complex that contains four replica baseball fields, opened five months ago. It is also now awaiting the completion of the Heights, a shopping center that is expected to be completely open by the end of the year.

The entire facility required a $57 million bond.

City officials hope to generate significant sales tax revenue from the stores and from Big League Dreams, and have long believed that the golf course would provide a steady stream of income.

Some residents suggested that instead of spending $40 million to build a course, that the land be kept undeveloped.

But if the city wants to produce cash flow, its best option would be to use the land as a golf course, Kessler said.

"A golf course is one thing where you can make money, and provide the community with something valuable," Kessler said. "If they build open space, that does nothing but cost money."

Yauchzee said there are two portions of land that are being considered for a golf course. The top deck of the landfill is 100 acres, another section is 75 acres.

"On the top deck, it is fairly well limited to golf activity, we can't build structures there," Yauchzee said. "But the 75 acres of raw land is fairly open."

Other options that the city council could consider on the property is a nine-hole golf course and driving range.

Kessler warned that a nine-hole golf course, though half the size, is not usually half the price.

"The nine-hole golf courses in Altadena and Eaton Canyon (in Pasadena) are probably the only two courses in the San Gabriel Valley that are really financially struggling," Kessler said. "They are half the golf course, but cost considerably more than half to operate. They are the financial step-child in every system."




Ray Richard

Re: Landfill Golf Courses
« Reply #42 on: July 16, 2008, 03:19:20 PM »
The Quarry Hills project in Quincy and Milton Ma combined two existing landfills into 27 holes. Around 6 million cy of excavation from the Big Dig was used as a cap. The John Sanford design is hilly with outstanding views of Boston. A few quirky holes but fun to play on a non-windy day. It looks like John is going to take on the mother of all landfill courses-New York City-Fresh Kills.

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Landfill Golf Courses
« Reply #43 on: July 16, 2008, 06:10:01 PM »
To answer the original question about Landfill - not Brownfield,  they can cost more but then again, it depends on how creative you are.  Some, like Harborside are costly - but then again that inclused the cost of actually capping the landfill as part of the construction cost where others make use of previously capped landfills.  So it's hard to get  apples to apples.  That said, irrigation needs to be practically wall-to-wall.  Top Soils tend to be substandard if they exist at all.  Forrest may have it a bit easier out i the southwest where you can get bermuda to grow on just about anything.  Getting some type of Top Soil (or sand) if none exists is the biggest hurdle.  An irrigation resevoir is also another hurdle.  Fill dirt may actually, depending on the location be a source of off-setting revenue.  USGA greens would be a big No-No, so greens construction is cheaper.  Hard surface cart path is also problematic due to the shifting subsurface.  Irrigation has to be some sort of extremely strong or flexible pipe with intregral joints/connections.  Fuel storage, maintenance buildings and clubhouses are also problematic.  They can be located on the landfill but not utilizing normal building techniques. All earthwork is fill only, no cut.  So about 3x's the normal fill is required.  Also how that fillis placed and where will affect the underlying cap and hence cause future drainage problems that can't be just "piped away".  Add to that, if a methane collection system with it's associated network of gas wells and connecting piping are present, these have to be incorportated into the design as improperly placed fill can have disastorous effects on the systems functionality
Other than that, construction is pretty much the same as any terrafirma course.
PS. Every landfill is created differently, so what works on one may have no bearing on another.
As far as costs, I just finished a 9-hole and double-ended range, public course under a union contract for a little over $2 million. Rough grading, and topsoil provided by the municipality. - This is just GC, no clubhouse, maintenance building, etc.

I can't believe I spent thousands of dollars to take "Solid Waste Management" when I could have gotten the same info free on GCA.com! Of course, that was something like 5 years before GCA.com was born, there was a neat tour of a co-gen plant, and I did get a great job, albeit indirectly, due to that course.

I digress.

Terry and David, I once played a course that was in the process of being turned into a landfill.

Many of the holes worked around a closing open space, maybe a pit or a quarry in its prior and happier life, which was being filled with garbage.  It had gotten to the point where runaways from the growing pile, loose bags of garbage -- from a safe distance they looked sort of like giant children's blocks, playfully arranged, but up close reality assaulted the senses, this giant spoor of a malevolent spirit -- tumbled onto the margins of the "quarry" holes.

Fortunately it was March and cold.  But the gulls made a hell of a noise and bad as it was tacking around Mt. Trashmore, we further had to contend with leftover snowdrifts, iced and dirty, that gave up our golf balls only after a fierce hacking. 

I recall on one hole play had to be suspended for a garbage truck to trundle across the "fairway" to the pit / mountain.  Conscious of holding up groups behind us -- a busy day at the world's first co-gen course! -- it took a man's concentration to block out not only the beep beep beep but the anticipation of, the listening for, the loud roar must follow the beeping.

It was too much for a playing partner who started rolling his ball in the "fairway" for better lies.  "You're damaging the integrity of the game!" I shouted. "This golf course is damaging the integrity of the game!" he shot back.

He had a point and after that we played preferred lies.

Mark

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