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Thomas MacWood

Another Merion thread
« on: July 12, 2008, 11:24:10 AM »
I found this little blurb by Verdant Greene in the Phildelphia Inquirer (11/15/1914):

"Herbert Barker, who planned the Mayfield course at Cleveland, which just now disputes first honors with the Detroit Country Club and who has acted in an advistory capacity in the laying out and remodeling of at least three courses around Philadelphia, within a half dozen years, besides a host of others, has had enough of being a professional in what some people proudly call the 'Land of the Free'. He goes back to England soon, where it is assumed he will apply for reinstatement to the amateur ranks. That Yorkshireman, who less than a decade ago, won the Irish amateur title, fancied he could capitlaize his ability by coming to the States and turning professional. Garden City, which just then had a hankering for anything English, made him an offer and he accpeted. Mr. Barker, who is of sensative type, has always held his peace, but if he wished could write a volume upon being excluded from the company of gentlemen, so to speak. Barker never won a competition of note on this side, owing parly to poor health for a time, but soon developed striking ability as a links architect. Indeed, only one other man has laid out more courses in this country."

This is a fascinating account on many levels.

What are the three courses in Philadelphia? Perhaps our Philly experts can chime in.

The insight into the professional's life. It really sounds like they were treated as second class citizens.

Who is the other prolific architect? Bendelow? What is remarkable about Barker he only came over in late 1907. That is a lot of activity in a relatively short period. The other interesting thing about Barker, he was mostly involved with high profile clubs (within the given city).
« Last Edit: July 17, 2008, 05:51:20 PM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re: Herbert Barker
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2008, 11:31:32 AM »
I'll certainly weigh in on this later. At the moment I've got to go over to Gulph Mills and meet that peripatetic expatriate American from Scotland, Rich Goodale, and his youngest daughter.

Thanks for the thread, Tom MacWood. I hope it can be a productive discussion this time!   ;)

Phil_the_Author

Re: Herbert Barker
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2008, 03:17:38 PM »
Tom,

If and when did Barker go back to England?

One of the members of the Capital City CC in Tallahassee, Florida, works for
the Florida Division of Historical Resources as a Hitoric Preservationist. Needless to say he enjoys golf course research and has been spending time looking into those in Florida.

He now believes that Capital City's original nine holes was most likely designed by barker in 1915-16. He hopes to have this established soon. If this is true, doesn't it call into question "Verdant Greene's" statement that "He goes back to England soon, where it is assumed he will apply for reinstatement to the amateur ranks..."?

Could it be that in this case, Mr. Greene was actually simply doing a case of sensationalistic reporting similar to what is common today?

Before you ask, I am not challenging the "three courses" as factual nor his description of Barker as a person, but rather solely based upon the idea that Barker may have designed Capital City in that time-frame, wondering aloud how to make sense of statement versus reality.

So did, and if so, when did Barker go back to England?
 

TEPaul

Re: Herbert Barker
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2008, 04:04:09 PM »
"Who is the other prolific architect? Bendelow?"

It seem like just by a rather simple process of elimination the only candidates who could compete with that kind of quantity in that very early era were definitely Tom Benedlow but also Alex Findlay and perhaps John Duncan Dunn. All of them at one time or another laid out courses for either the railroads or sporting good companies primarily up and down the East Coast. Some of those may lack attribution since they were apparently pretty quick and pretty rudimentary. 

TEPaul

Re: Herbert Barker
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2008, 04:24:16 PM »
This is from David Moriarty's essay "The Missing Faces of Merion."

"Barker’s design career was cut short when he returned to England in 1915 to join the Royal Air Force.  Prior to that, he may have been the best-known professional golf course architect regularly practicing in America, and was probably second only to C.B. Macdonald among both amateurs and professionals.  At the time he planned the course for Merion, Barker claimed to have already planned upwards of 20 courses.  In the July 1914 issue of Outing magazine, the great British champion Harry Vardon wrote that Barker’s Mayfield Country Club in Ohio was the best course in America."


It's interesting that Barker is given design credit for Mayfield GC in Ohio by Vardon or whatever because at least one source claims Bert Way was the architect of Mayfield GC perhaps with Barker in some capacity.

Bert Way's apparent connection to John D. Rockefeller who owned the land the membership of Mayfield was previously on (Euclid GC) is quite interesting. It sounds like Bert Way taught JDR golf.

But I'm just still really trying to figure out how even remotely cogent logic gets from a newspaper article from Philadelphia mentioning Barker to the claim in a recent essay on here that H.H. Barker was the second best known architect in America, amateur or professional, right behind C.B. Macdonald in 1910.   ???

Honestly, SO FAR this has just got to be out of the school of architectural research known as the  "Throw Some Spaghetti Against the Wall To See if It Sticks."
« Last Edit: July 12, 2008, 04:34:01 PM by TEPaul »

Thomas MacWood

Re: Herbert Barker
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2008, 04:36:03 PM »
Phil
Barker returned to England in 1915. Capital City was planned by Barker in 1910 or 1911.

TE
In 1913 the Chicago Tribune claimed Bendelow had laid out 500 golf courses. That seems a bit high to me, but I think he was probably the most prolific by a good distance.

Barker designed Mayfield, Bert Way constructed it.

Thomas MacWood

Re: Herbert Barker
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2008, 04:37:26 PM »
TE
What three courses in Philadelphia was Barker involved with?

TEPaul

Re: Herbert Barker
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2008, 04:47:24 PM »
"Barker designed Mayfield, Bert Way constructed it."

Tom MacWood:

Interesting to hear that but what have you got to prove that?

As far as courses Barker designed in Philadelphia, I just don't know. Frankly, Mike Cirba is a lot better than I am with that early era around Eastern Pa with those types of early architects. Maybe he knows something about what Barker may've done around here. Perhaps Barker even told someone that he designed Merion East and that sure as shootin' is not the case, that's for damn sure! It seems to me that the Merion Site Search Committee considered the Connell generated plan for Merion by Barker for about less than a day and then turned right to C.B. Macdonald for advice on the future of their Ardmore project. That would certainly fit the timeline and the fact the Merion board minutes never mentioned anything about Barker again after July 1, 1910. At that point they were over six months away from generating any specific design plans for the course. At least that's what the Merion Board minutes say but perhaps you still feel it's appropriate to ask what the hell they knew about the Ardmore project!   ::)
« Last Edit: July 12, 2008, 04:51:27 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: Herbert Barker
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2008, 05:08:01 PM »
"The insight into the professional's life. It really sounds like they were treated as second class citizens."

Tom MacWood:

In many ways they most certainly were. That was not endemic to America at that time it was pretty much the same everywhere. I wouldn't exactly say they were treated as second class citizens in every way but in the world of sport and the so-called "amateur/sportsmen" ethos they sure were. That culture pretty much felt a true "amateur/sportsman" was never inclined to profit from the game in any way at all. Right around the mid-teens that ethos was particularly strong and stringent, particularly over here.

You might also be interested to know that the club that felt it just might be the best representation there was in this country at that time of that true "amateur/sportsman" ethos and culture was a prominent Philadelphia club known as Merion Cricket Club (MCC), the club that moved their golf course from Haverford to Ardmore in 1911-13!

It is really clear via some documentation that they felt they did not need to go the professional architect route with their new courses, and that they could very well do it themselves basically using the modus operandi and a bit of advice from their friend C.B. Macdonald who was doing the same thing himself with an "amateur/sportsman" committee at NGLA, led by Macdonald.

Thomas MacWood

Re: Herbert Barker
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2008, 05:37:10 PM »
TE
Barker advertised he designed Mayfield. Greene gives him credit, as does Walter Travis. George Thomas lists the course as Barker & Way.

"Perhaps Barker even told someone that he designed Merion East and that sure as shootin' is not the case, that's for damn sure!"

That seems pretty far fetched. Do you think Verdant Greene was that gullible or out of touch with what was going on in Philadelphia? Maybe Mike C or Joe B might have some idea.

Who do you think advised Lloyd to seek the advice of Barker in 1910?

 
« Last Edit: July 12, 2008, 05:40:36 PM by Tom MacWood »

Phil_the_Author

Re: Herbert Barker
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2008, 08:15:40 PM »
Tom,

Can you send along the info on Barker at capital City in 1910/11? I want to pass it along as they will definitely appreciate it.

Thanks,

Thomas MacWood

Re: Herbert Barker
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2008, 08:34:38 PM »
Phil
I'll see what I can dig up, there is a lot of info in American Golfer, but the club was called Brookhaven at the time. The 1915-16 date may be when the name was changed to Capital City.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Herbert Barker
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2008, 10:33:02 PM »
Tom,

We know Springhaven was one of the three. 

Unfortunately, I haven't seen his name mentioned with any others of that time period near Philly.   More unfortunately is that so many of those earliest courses and clubs, (particuarly in surrounding Delaware County) are now defunct, (i.e., Lansdowne) so unless our buddy Joe comes across something mentioning Barker we may never know.

He was certainly much more prolific than I ever knew, and given his close association with Travis, and the fallout between Travis and Macdonald around that time, I'm wondering if that isn't part of the reason that his plan for Merion didn't seem to get off the ground once Charley got involved in the project.

Phil_the_Author

Re: Herbert Barker
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2008, 11:18:55 PM »
Thanks Tom...

TEPaul

Re: Herbert Barker
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2008, 12:06:38 AM »
"TE
Barker advertised he designed Mayfield. Greene gives him credit, as does Walter Travis. George Thomas lists the course as Barker & Way."


Tom MacWood:

Although it's pretty sketchy there seems like there is a sort of unmistakable connection between H.H. Barker, Bert Way and Willie Dunn Jr for a lot of interesting reasons to do with Long Island and some pretty powerful people such as W.K. Vanderbilt, John D. Rockefeller and others that sort of connected Way and Barker in Ohio possibly through Way's and Dunn's close friendship and those big timers. Way was the pro for the membership from Euclid G.C., Cleveland Ohio from 1900, a course Way apparently designed. The land was owned by Rockefeller. Previous to that Way had laid out some courses in Detroit after moving there from the pro job at Meadowbrook Hunt Club which is in Westbury L.I. which is not ten miles from GCGC. At this time Willie Dunn Jr was at Shinnecock. Way had worked for Dunn at Biarritz G.C. in France. Willie Dunn Jr must have been some interesting guy as it appears he had some really powerful friends including Rockefeller and Vanderbilt, Stewart Maiden, John L. Sullivan, Zane Grey, Teddy Roosevelt etc. It looks like Dunn made and lost a lot of money a couple of times which isn't exactly something one did as a pro, greenkeeper, designer in that day and age. Way was the pro for over fifty years for the Euclid/Mayfield GCs which was the same memberships which just moved the site of their course. If you ask me those three were close and buddies from the old country and through Long Island connections and they probably helped each other out and tried to share the wealth in what they did design-wise which had to be pretty part time since all of them were always club professionals somewhere throughout their extended careers in America.

It seems like that was a world that most of us today don't understand that well in how small and interconnected it was in various ways with guys like Barker, Dunn and Way. It was probably about as different from the world of professional golf course architects in our era as night and day. It looks to me like Way may've just brought Barker into Mayfield to help out a friend. Way had been with that membership for the previous ten years, designed them their first course (Euclid) and he would be with them as their professional for the next forty years at Mayfield. Way also taught John D. Rockefeller the game. I don't see the club bringing in Barker out of the blue from New York to Ohio where Barker had not previously been when Way had been there all along and he was a known designer previous to that and for the Euclid/Mayfield membership. It looks like Way arranged to bring him in maybe at the behest of his old friend Willie Dunn Jr and his powerful personal connections.   

« Last Edit: July 13, 2008, 12:12:10 AM by TEPaul »

Phil_the_Author

Re: Herbert Barker
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2008, 12:37:17 AM »
Tom,

I think we both have a bit of homework to do.

You said, "I'll see what I can dig up, there is a lot of info in American Golfer, but the club was called Brookhaven at the time. The 1915-16 date may be when the name was changed to Capital City."

I believe you are mixing this up with the Capital City Country Club in Atlanta whose original course was at Brookhaven.

I was refering to the Capital City CC in Tallahassee Florida that Tilly redsigned it's original nine hole layout and added a second nine in 1936. It was originally opened as the Tallahassee CC and was bought by the city who hired Tilly to do the work.

Thomas MacWood

Re: Herbert Barker
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2008, 01:01:18 AM »
TE
Interesting theory. but there may be some lose strings. Way left Long Island for Detroit in 1898, nine years before Barker came to the States, and prior even to GCGC being born. Willie Dunn was run out of this country in 1907. Not only that but Travis, Barker's mentor in America, was no fan of Willie Dunn the golf architect. I seriously doubt HH would have a connection with Dunn.

Phil
My mistake, I'm not familar with Cap City in Florida. I do know Barker left the US in 1915. If it was designed in 1915, he may have been involved, if it was 1916 I doubt it.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2008, 01:06:30 AM by Tom MacWood »

Phil_the_Author

Re: Herbert Barker
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2008, 01:26:50 AM »
Tom,

No problem, I didn't even think at first myself when you said it.

The person who believes that Barker did it doesn't know when it was designed and they believe it was opened in either 1915 or 1916, so there is a good chance that Barker did the design in 1913 or 1914.

TEPaul

Re: Herbert Barker
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2008, 10:00:20 AM »
“Willie Dunn was run out of this country in 1907.”

Tom MacWood:

What do you mean by that? Run out of this country for what and for how long? Apparently Willie Dunn Jr had a number of ups and downs financially but it seems he basically remained in this country in various places until 1940 when he went back to his homeland for good and where he died in 1952.


“Not only that but Travis, Barker's mentor in America, was no fan of Willie Dunn the golf architect.”

What do you base that on?


“Who do you think advised Lloyd to seek the advice of Barker in 1910?”

I have no idea and I don't believe Lloyd did seek Barker's advice. Who do you think advised Lloyd to seek the advice of Barker in 1910? Do you think Walter Travis did? If so then why did Barker write a letter that included a ‘rough pencil layout’ dated June 10, 1910 to George Connell, a developer with no membership connection to MCC or the MCC Search Committee, instead of Lloyd who was on the MCC Search Committee?

Therefore, I can’t see that Lloyd did seek any advice from Barker. That would seem to be confirmed by the fact that seemingly within days of Connell’s submission to the MCC Search Committee of Barker’s correspondence to him (Connell), Rodman Griscom of the MCC Search Committee contacted C.B. Macdonald in the middle of June 1910, within days of the Connell/Barker correspondence. Macdonald’s subsequent letter to the Search Committee was addressed to Lloyd. Following the July 1, 1910 report the MCC Search Committee submitted to MCC’s board which included Barker’s correspondence with Connell, Barker’s name was never mentioned again in connection with the MCC move to Ardmore. Matter of fact, in that July 1, 1910 Search Committee report to the MCC board it included the fact that Connell had obtained Barker’s advice on his own account and not on MCC’s account.

Additionally, Alan Wilson’s 1926 report of the creation of the Merion courses makes specific mention that Merion never used the services of a professional architect.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2008, 10:44:09 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: Herbert Barker
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2008, 10:08:27 AM »
"Barker designed Mayfield, Bert Way constructed it."


What do you base that on? Way had been the professional for the Euclid/Mayfield club and membership for ten years and he designed their Euclid course for them around 1900 on land owned by John D. Rockefeller who Way apparently introduced to golf and who apparently became a friend. Way remained at Mayfield as its professional until 1951. Way has been given design attribution with Barker for the Mayfield course. Why would the club bring in Barker to design their course when they had Way? It sounds to me like it was probably Way who was responsible for bringing Barker to Mayfield.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2008, 10:37:21 AM by TEPaul »

Thomas MacWood

Re: Herbert Barker
« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2008, 04:10:52 PM »
TE
I base that on the fact Barker advertised he designed Mayfield. Greene gave him credit, as did Walter Travis and George Thomas listed the course as Barker & Way, and reports that Way was supervising construction. Way's background was construction...beginning with Tom Dunn and Willie Dunn. As a design style the Dunn school was losing popularity in 1909-1910.

To my knowledge there is no connection between Way and Barker (other than their involvement at Mayfield). Mayfield wanted to build the best course in America ~ their moto was beat Myopia. Barker had been involved in the much publicized redesign of GCGC, turning the course into what many believed was the best course in America, along with the NGLA. Barker was the man who be able to deliver. That is most likely why Merion Cricket, Columbia and CC of Virginia also called his number. On a somewhat related note Barker remodeled Way's Detroit GC (a completely new modern bunkering scheme) in 1911 prior to the Western Am.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2008, 05:09:00 PM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re: Herbert Barker
« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2008, 04:33:53 PM »
Interesting speculation and conjecture. Nevertheless, Way and Barker are both given design credit for Mayfield. There's nothing I'm aware of that mentions Barker designed the course and Way only constructed it. Way designed the membership's previous course as well.

Merion Cricket Club did not call Barker's number, an independent real estate developer by the name of George Connell called Barker and paid for his service of a rough stick routing---MCC did call him and did not hire Barker to do anything and his name was never brought up again by MCC after June 1910 when Connell submitted Barker's letter (to Connell) and his "rough layout" to the MCC Search Committee. MCC records also indicate no design plans were done for Ardmore until 1911, six months later. No architectural fees were ever paid to anyone for either golf course at Ardmore.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2008, 04:42:20 PM by TEPaul »

Thomas MacWood

Re: Herbert Barker
« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2008, 05:05:50 PM »
TE
Who ever it was at Merion who called Barker, they should be commended. That person obviously knew what they were doing, because they were getting one of the hotest designers in the game.

In addition to Barker's connection with Travis and GCGC, there may have been some relationship with the USGA. The head honchos at Mayfield (Euclid), Merion, Columbia, Detroit, East Lake, Waverly historically have had a strong USGA association. I wonder if Findlay Douglas helped in this regard.

Another tie seems to be Carters Grass Seed, who was a very strong influence on golf course developments. Among Carters clients were GCGC, Columbia, Detroit, Merion, Mayfield, Winnetka and Skokie, all courses Barker was involved with. I wonder if Barker's collaboration with HS Colt in 1913 was arranged by Carters. Could PV be one of the three courses Barker was involved with in Philadelphia?

Thomas MacWood

Re: Herbert Barker
« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2008, 05:12:20 PM »
“Willie Dunn was run out of this country in 1907.”

Tom MacWood:

What do you mean by that? Run out of this country for what and for how long? Apparently Willie Dunn Jr had a number of ups and downs financially but it seems he basically remained in this country in various places until 1940 when he went back to his homeland for good and where he died in 1952.


“Not only that but Travis, Barker's mentor in America, was no fan of Willie Dunn the golf architect.”

What do you base that on?


“Who do you think advised Lloyd to seek the advice of Barker in 1910?”

I have no idea and I don't believe Lloyd did seek Barker's advice. Who do you think advised Lloyd to seek the advice of Barker in 1910? Do you think Walter Travis did? If so then why did Barker write a letter that included a ‘rough pencil layout’ dated June 10, 1910 to George Connell, a developer with no membership connection to MCC or the MCC Search Committee, instead of Lloyd who was on the MCC Search Committee?

Therefore, I can’t see that Lloyd did seek any advice from Barker. That would seem to be confirmed by the fact that seemingly within days of Connell’s submission to the MCC Search Committee of Barker’s correspondence to him (Connell), Rodman Griscom of the MCC Search Committee contacted C.B. Macdonald in the middle of June 1910, within days of the Connell/Barker correspondence. Macdonald’s subsequent letter to the Search Committee was addressed to Lloyd. Following the July 1, 1910 report the MCC Search Committee submitted to MCC’s board which included Barker’s correspondence with Connell, Barker’s name was never mentioned again in connection with the MCC move to Ardmore. Matter of fact, in that July 1, 1910 Search Committee report to the MCC board it included the fact that Connell had obtained Barker’s advice on his own account and not on MCC’s account.

Additionally, Alan Wilson’s 1926 report of the creation of the Merion courses makes specific mention that Merion never used the services of a professional architect.


TE
Did you get your Willie Dunn info from C&W?

The Phildelphia Inquirer reported that Lloyd sought the advice of Barker, Macdonald & Whigham.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2008, 05:17:23 PM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re: Herbert Barker
« Reply #24 on: July 13, 2008, 08:36:28 PM »
"TE
Did you get your Willie Dunn info from C&W?"

Some of it but certainly not all of it. I spoke to Mr Cornish about what's contained in the book about architectural attribution and explanation about clubs and he said obviously most of it comes from the clubs themselves. Maybe you think you know more about the history of golf clubs architecture then they do, including Mayfield, because you certainly try to challenge them enough, but from your particular vantage point I would seriously always doubt you know what they do or you will ever know what they do. Your information is almost always direct and information from clubs generally isn't. Information in newspaper accounts logically emanated from the golf clubs themselves contemporaneously.

 

"The Phildelphia Inquirer reported that Lloyd sought the advice of Barker, Macdonald & Whigham."



I would like to see the wording of that but nevertheless, I think a far more reliable source about what actually happened with a Barker would be the actual committee reports themselves, their reports to the club's board and the club's board minutes. There certainly is no newspaper accounts that ever knew more about what actually happened then the people and the committees and boards that were actually involved in the search for and creation of those courses.

If Lloyd actually sought the advice of Barker himself, I've seen no indication of that from the Merion records and even if he did seek Barker's advice, one really would wonder why Connell was the recipient of that advice and why he paid for it and not MCC. In any case, Barker's advice was not followed up on at all, according to Merion's records. Maybe you think some Philadelphia newspaper reporters knew more about what was going on with Merion's project than the Merion people doing it but that's a pretty astounding assumption to make.  ;)

MCC's record certainly never attemtped to hide their relationship and negotiations with The Haverford Development Co (Connell) but the record of the architectural development of the course is quite clear and it does not involve Barker in any way. The club records do mention, however, that the club did need to act cautiously about potential land they might want to buy, so as not to raise the sale price.

This whole thing with your fixation about Macdonald's involvement in Merion East began about five and a half years ago with an article or two you said you found from a Philadelphia newspaper or whatever. Of course the club has always had those newspaper accounts and we've been aware of them for years and they are of no difference when it comes to Macdonald than what is reflected in Merion's committee reports and board meetings from whence those newspaper accounts probably came.

Apparently you are on the same campaign with Barker and Mayfield----eg to challenge the Mayfield GC's architectural attribution. Unless you have something much more concrete and indicative about Barker than you've heretofore reported, I'm afraid you're just on another of your wild goose chases.

You are a good speculator on the architectural history or golf clubs and architects and there is a place for that, particularly in the beginning of a research project but not when one tries to pass it off as truth or fact.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2008, 08:56:32 PM by TEPaul »

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