SWINLEY FOREST - Odds n' Sods

[Sean_A]

I have made no bones about Swinley.  I think the course is over-rated, but still plenty crafty enough to make it probably the one club I would like to join in London.  I have just begun reading Swinley Special and thus far it is tremendously well written and entertaining.  The author allows the story to unfold without throwing numbers and statistics out. 

Anyway, in addition to the photo of the 4th hole showing sand down a pit - which is nothing like what the bunkers look like today, I saw an old pic of #5 alongside a relatively new pic.  It is astonishing the amount of width that has been lost to trees.  The hole used to swing gently to the right, but now plays essentially straight.  The current bunkers on the right side of the driving zone were fully in the centre of the fairway back in the day.  There must be 30 yards of fairway/light rough lost on the right.   

The difference in the shape of the 5th got me to look at the yardages.  Astonishingly, the course is now (from the back tees) some 200+ yards less than it was when built!   However, and perhaps more astonishingly, some of Colt's measurements must have been miles out.  For instance, the 3rd hole was measured at 335.  The old tee was further up and along the tree line creating an awkward drive down a slight ridge falling left the entire length of the hole.  Now the tee is behind the 2nd, yet it is measured at 290 yards and a bit less from the tee to the right of the 2nd green.  This discrepency in yardage is hard to explain unless Colt gave the members a "6100 yard course". 

I shall read on with anticipation.

I would appreciate if folks could add photos to this thread - especially the 3rd & 5th for now.  I am hoping we can stretch this thing along and try to get some cool info out.

Ciao

[Andrew Hastie]

Sean,Is this good!



3rd Hole





3rd Hole Back Tee

[Andrew Hastie]

2nd shot  3rd



Tee shot 5th



2nd shot 5th

[ChipOat]

Excellent pictures; they clearly didn't name it Swinley FOREST for nothing!

[Sean_A]

Zowie Andrew!  That pic of 5 illustrates the point brilliantly.  Do you see the low bush area coming out from the right?  The fairway used to go around this area.  Those trees down the right have all grown in.  It seems a pity since Colt would have had to tear trees out to build the course and afford interior vistas.  I think something like 2300 sellable trees were originally marked for removal, but 10X that went in the end.  That bush in front of the tee is between the old men's tee and the forward tee.  I am sure I didn't play from the tees in this pic. Is there a tee over by the mower?


This pic really shows how different the 3rd would play with a tee over by the right tree line.  While driving the hole is very difficult today, imagine having to cut a ball back against the mini ridge and between the bunkers.  The hole is clearly shorter from the right because that tree line is interupted by the 2nd fairway. 


Thanks Andrew!

Ciao

[Sean_A]

Before we kick on any further, it is already apparent that Swinley has been altered quite a bit in detail, but perhaps not so much in spirit.  Reading on, I find the #1 was altered.  The entire hole was shoved closer to #18 - almost forming a double fairway.  In fact, its so close I don't know why they don't just commit to it.  The green was also further left.  I can only assume the shift was to stop too many balls crashing onto the RR line. 

An interesting note about the newish pond at #5.  It may be that Colt intended to build a pond as the nearby drainage lines all lead in this direction.  Personally, I am not sold on the pond, but I expect it may have been cheaper than creating better drainage.  Who knows.

Ciao

[David_Tepper]

Sean -

Does Swinley Forest allow unaccompanied guest play?

As I recall, there is fairly one well-known club in the Surrey/Berkshire area that does not allow unaccompanied guest play, but I cannot recall if SF is the one.

DT

[Chris Kane]

David,

Officially it doesn't, but they've let a number of my friends on who demonstrated a particular interest in the architecture.  Very classy place.

[Lynn_Shackelford]

It is my understanding that there have been some changes recently.  I think the 2nd tee was moved because someone got hit by a skulled shot coming in from the 1st fairway.  I think this change resulted in a shorter 2nd hole.  The 4th, a famous par 3, was rebuilt a few years back and more attention was paid to drainage than restoring it.  But still what a collection of great Colt par 3s.  I only played once, but I do not remember trees being in play.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Sean I'm just getting into it.  The one thing that bothers me so far is the attempt to give credit for the main driving force to Colt. The author was in property so he must understand who holds the reins in this kind of deal.  It read like an attempt to replace one legend with another rather than facts.

I found the section on developing the course excellent but I'd like to know more about where his info on the amount of time Colt spent there preparing his plans comes from.


Also had anyone else heard about Colt spending a week on the site of Toronto in a tent before?

Overall good book and a good read.

[Mark Pearce]

Zowie Andrew!  That pic of 5 illustrates the point brilliantly.  Do you see the low bush area coming out from the right?  The fairway used to go around this area.  Those trees down the right have all grown in.  It seems a pity since Colt would have had to tear trees out to build the course and afford interior vistas.  I think something like 2300 sellable trees were originally marked for removal, but 10X that went in the end.  That bush in front of the tee is between the old men's tee and the forward tee.  I am sure I didn't play from the tees in this pic. Is there a tee over by the mower?

I think that mower is on the 4th green.  I don't recall any other set of tees than the ones in the picture.

This pic really shows how different the 3rd would play with a tee over by the left tree line.  While driving the hole is very difficult today, imagine having to cut a ball back against the mini ridge and between the bunkers.  The hole is clearly shorter from the left because that tree line is interupted by the 2nd fairway. 

Do you mean a tee by the right tree line?  I can't see a tee being any closer to the left tree line.  I agree that might make a better hole.  I like the third but it reminds me a lot of the second on the Blue course at the Berkshire which I think is a better hole.

I like Swinley a lot but like you don't love it in the way I like the two courses at the Berkshire which are less celebrated.

[Tim Gavrich]

That view of the 3rd from the back tee looks extremely similar to the view of #2 at Sunningdale-Old from the tee.  I've never played Swinley.  Do the two holes play similarly?

[Sean_A]

Zowie Andrew!  That pic of 5 illustrates the point brilliantly.  Do you see the low bush area coming out from the right?  The fairway used to go around this area.  Those trees down the right have all grown in.  It seems a pity since Colt would have had to tear trees out to build the course and afford interior vistas.  I think something like 2300 sellable trees were originally marked for removal, but 10X that went in the end.  That bush in front of the tee is between the old men's tee and the forward tee.  I am sure I didn't play from the tees in this pic. Is there a tee over by the mower?

I think that mower is on the 4th green.  I don't recall any other set of tees than the ones in the picture.

This pic really shows how different the 3rd would play with a tee over by the left tree line.  While driving the hole is very difficult today, imagine having to cut a ball back against the mini ridge and between the bunkers.  The hole is clearly shorter from the left because that tree line is interupted by the 2nd fairway. 

Do you mean a tee by the right tree line?  I can't see a tee being any closer to the left tree line.  I agree that might make a better hole.  I like the third but it reminds me a lot of the second on the Blue course at the Berkshire which I think is a better hole.

I like Swinley a lot but like you don't love it in the way I like the two courses at the Berkshire which are less celebrated.

Mark

You are right, I meant to say right tree line for the 3rd hole. 

Tony

It must be your read, I don't get the impression that the author wants to bestow all credit for the project on Colt.  Clearly, money and a drive for membership, two important aspects of the club development, were not in Colt's domain.  IMO the author is only trying to give credit where credit is due and he seems to think the golf course is all credit to Colt. 

I don't worry about the time on site issues.  It is clear Colt had ample opportunity to be on site, but does it really matter if he was off on other jobs whilst leaving instructions?  I don't think it does. 

Lynn

Yes, the 4th has been fooled with a few years back and I do think drainage was the issue.  What really surprised me was seeing an old pic of the front right bunker there.  It doesn't look anything like today.  Its more or less a hole with a sloped grass face.  No evidence of flash at all.

There is also an interesting bit about the size of the tees.  Apparently, Colt didn't think there was much call for decent size tee areas because of the size and type of membership.  The old Colt tee in front of the current 5th tee is meant to be fairly representative of the size of tees.  Remarkably small!



Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

On the plus side Swinley is a wonderful place to play golf.  Perhaps its best hole is the long par 4 12th (I think, no doubt I'll be corrected if I'm one) which may well be one of the greatest holes I have ever played.  A tricky angle for the drive with a perfectly placed large fairway bunker on the left which pushes the drive right.  Even a good drive leaves a tricky approach to an angled green.  Does anyone have any photos of that hole?

[Thomas MacWood]

Also had anyone else heard about Colt spending a week on the site of Toronto in a tent before?

Tony
I haven't heard that one before. There has been a story floating around that Colt camped out at Pine Valley - unlikely since Colt was travelling with his wife.

[Chris Kane]

On the plus side Swinley is a wonderful place to play golf.  Perhaps its best hole is the long par 4 12th (I think, no doubt I'll be corrected if I'm one) which may well be one of the greatest holes I have ever played.  A tricky angle for the drive with a perfectly placed large fairway bunker on the left which pushes the drive right.  Even a good drive leaves a tricky approach to an angled green.  Does anyone have any photos of that hole?

This one?

[Mark Pearce]

On the plus side Swinley is a wonderful place to play golf.  Perhaps its best hole is the long par 4 12th (I think, no doubt I'll be corrected if I'm one) which may well be one of the greatest holes I have ever played.  A tricky angle for the drive with a perfectly placed large fairway bunker on the left which pushes the drive right.  Even a good drive leaves a tricky approach to an angled green.  Does anyone have any photos of that hole?

This one?

That's it.  The left side fairway bunker can just be made out in your first picture beghind the last trees on the left.  The best drive is as close as you can get to that bunker.

[Sean_A]

An interesting tidbit about the clubhouse - and remember who we are talking about - some of the best connected and wealthiest folks in the UK.  In 1910 the committee decided the original plans were too grandiose and sent the archie back to make new plans.  Three months later a new set of plans was accepted with alterations.  When the committtee discovered it would cost £4700 it sought out another contractor which came in at under £4000 (~£340,000).  While the clubhouse cannot be considered lavish, it is very comfortable and attractive.  I believe that most visitors are more than satisfied with clubhouse - I like it a load precisely because it isn't golfy.  It makes me wonder why  more clubs the stature of Swinley aren't a bit frugal with their money. 

Ciao

[Lynn_Shackelford]

I think I was there in 2000.  The wooden floors in the clubhouse all had spike marks!  To say it was simply then is an understatement.  I loved it.  The locker room reminded me of Cypress Point.  It felt, looked and smelled like a locker room, not some rich man's home library.
The club secretary insisted my wife and I join him for lunch.  Some English finger sandwiches that made me desire Fatburger two hours later.
My wife continues to wonder about my golf.  Before Swinley, one day she read a book at Myopia Hunt Club in the women's locker room that had the greatest wooden screen doors.  Another hundred year old building.
It was pouring rain during my entire round. 

[Paul_Turner]

Gotta get this book.

From all the old pics I've seen, I don't think Swinley has been altered much at all, particularly not in comparison with other courses of about that age.

I wouldn't be surprised if Colt was involved in non-architectural organizational aspects of the club at Swinley, particularly in the early stages.  He wasn't a full time architect in 1910 and had lots of experience with setting up memberships etc as secretary at Sunningdale.

[Sean_A]

Gotta get this book.

From all the old pics I've seen, I don't think Swinley has been altered much at all, particularly not in comparison with other courses of about that age.

I wouldn't be surprised if Colt was involved in non-architectural organizational aspects of the club at Swinley, particularly in the early stages.  He wasn't a full time architect in 1910 and had lots of experience with setting up memberships etc as secretary at Sunningdale.

"...altered much..." I spose is relative.  So far, the 1st has been greatly altered including a new green - which I didn't know.  The 3rd has been radically altered by changing the angle of the tee shot - which I didn't know.  The 5th added a  pond.  There are many more trees on the course than originally.  Many tees have been altered.  As I say, the course seems to have been altered quite a bit in detail, but not so much in spirit. 

Ciao

[Richard Pennell]

Here's a few odds and sods of mine:

A rather distant view of the magnificent clubhouse, looking back from the 1st green



The 5th tee shot, pond on the right



The 5th hole with the pond in the foreground



12th tee



12th approach shot



and what awaits you if you miss short left



and my favourite hole (I think) in a great set of holes
the 9th tee shot



and the second up and round the hill, trouble left, not much to focus on, tough to judge the distance, what a hole. No bunkers required near the green, just a great natural hole



I love Swinley Forest

[Paul_Turner]

Gotta get this book.

From all the old pics I've seen, I don't think Swinley has been altered much at all, particularly not in comparison with other courses of about that age.

I wouldn't be surprised if Colt was involved in non-architectural organizational aspects of the club at Swinley, particularly in the early stages.  He wasn't a full time architect in 1910 and had lots of experience with setting up memberships etc as secretary at Sunningdale.

"...altered much..." I spose is relative.  So far, the 1st has been greatly altered including a new green - which I didn't know.  The 3rd has been radically altered by changing the angle of the tee shot - which I didn't know.  The 5th added a  pond.  There are many more trees on the course than originally.  Many tees have been altered.  As I say, the course seems to have been altered quite a bit in detail, but not so much in spirit. 

Ciao

Sean

Does the book state when the 1st green changed?

The 5th pond was added a few years back and there have been some bunkers added on 18 but these aren't all that significant in how the course plays or even looks.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Still enjoying it.

Another piece of news to me is that Colt serveved as their Secretary for the first few years, common knowledge?


Gib P is Quoted!!!

Finally it goes to some lengths to really explain the club culture.  You don't join to make friends, you join to play with friends.  With no competitons how do you meet others to play with? Simple you pre book games with those you already know and you never turn up on the off chance of picking up a game.
Still want to be a member Sean?   Memebership there is not for the likes of me.

Fascinating place.

[Sean_A]

Still enjoying it.

Another piece of news to me is that Colt serveved as their Secretary for the first few years, common knowledge?


Gib P is Quoted!!!

Finally it goes to some lengths to really explain the club culture.  You don't join to make friends, you join to play with friends.  With no competitons how do you meet others to play with? Simple you pre book games with those you already know and you never turn up on the off chance of picking up a game.
Still want to be a member Sean?   Memebership there is not for the likes of me.

Fascinating place.

Tony

Yes, I knew Swinley was the sort of place one brought his game to rather than finding a game while there.  That wouldn't bother me so much.  A place like Swinley seems quite congenial for the evening muck about with cigar in tow. 

Paul

No, the author is very lax on details of time scale for changes - the one great weakness of the book. 

I just found another change.  The 1st had its stream diverted by Colt (on orders) to run closer to the tee.  It is also evident from looking at a pic that the 1st & 18th were essentially joined fairways.  I don't see any bunkers where there are now handful on the 18th.  Mind you, one or two might be concealed in the fold of the hill.

Ciao