LedgeRock, Mohnton, Pa

[Bob Harris]

I am curious to get some opinions of others who have played LedgeRock.  I had the opportunity to do the course rating and play there today.

[Tom_Doak]

Bob:  A friend of ours (the project manager for Stonewall) spent two years as project manager for LedgeRock, but they still hadn't started (!) when he came over to take the job at Sebonack.

He showed me a routing plan for the course, I'm curious to hear what you thought of the finished product.  It looked like a tough site on the map ...

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Bob

Here's a prior thread:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,30310.0.html

From what I've heard, the course is unwalkable which is strange given who the developers are.

[Bob Harris]

It certainly must have been a difficult site, with the elevation changes and wetlands to work around.  They obviously moved a lot of dirt.  It is in great condition, especially when you consider that  they got 6 inches of rain in the last few days.

My basic objection (other than you can't walk it) is that it's just too hard for most players.  There are a number of forced carries that most players won't be able to handle.  If the forced carry is from the tee, the golfer can often move up a tee or two, but at LedgeRock many of the carries are second or third shots that can't be avoided.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Bob,

How would you compare LedgeRock with my former club, Commonwealth, another difficult local course built on a less demanding,relatively flat, site. If I recall correctly, Commonwealth has 14 forced carries with many on second or third shots because of the wetlands running through the course. Commonwealth is rated at:

Black  74.7/152 7084y
Blue   73.3/148 6743y
White 71.4/138 6301y
Yellow69.6/131 5738y

[Dan Herrmann]

I've only seen it from the area around the clubhouse, and it just "looked" to be very hard, and not a heck of a lot of fun.  I watched two twosomes play into a green with water nearby, and 3 out of 4 found the water hazard.

They have a fitness center and (I think) overnight lodging.

I honestly don't understand the economics of the club - fairly expensive equity membership in rural Berks County.

[Bob Harris]

Bob,

How would you compare LedgeRock with my former club, Commonwealth, another difficult local course built on a less demanding,relatively flat, site. If I recall correctly, Commonwealth has 14 forced carries with many on second or third shots because of the wetlands running through the course. Commonwealth is rated at:

Black  74.7/152 7084y
Blue   73.3/148 6743y
White 71.4/138 6301y
Yellow69.6/131 5738y

Steve,

One of my rating team members is from Commonwealth and we were having that discussion yesterday.

We both prefer Commonwealth.  First of all, you can walk. 
Even though the ratings/slopes are higher at Commonwealth, I think it's more playable. (except for 18, which I've never played well). 

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Bob,

Your remark about 18 at Commonwealth brings up the topic of most difficult finishing hole in the area- Commonwealth, Lookaway, Cricket Flourtown or Merion? What say you?

In my 10 years at Commonwealth, I birdied 18 once. Par is an outstanding score there and so is bogey. 

[Powell Arms]

Bob,

Your remark about 18 at Commonwealth brings up the topic of most difficult finishing hole in the area- Commonwealth, Lookaway, Cricket Flourtown or Merion? What say you?

In my 10 years at Commonwealth, I birdied 18 once. Par is an outstanding score there and so is bogey. 

one vote, I think the 18th at commerwealth is the most difficult if you consider players of all levels.  The 18th at Cricket can be managed for bogey, as can the 18th at Merion (assuming you're playing from the appropriate tee)  The 18th at Commonwealth is tough to manage as a par five because the trouble and forced carry is the second shot, and it's a pretty hefty carry and rather tight.  That's not to say it's the best 18th of those - just the most difficult.

[Michael Blake]

Granted it is a difficult site and there were some carries, but to say it was not fun because of the design or the site betrays you as biased or unsuitable for the sport.

Kelly,

Are you saying that a golfer can't blame/question the design or the site if their round isn't fun?

At LedgeRock only?  Or at all courses?

[Kyle Harris]

Bob,

Your remark about 18 at Commonwealth brings up the topic of most difficult finishing hole in the area- Commonwealth, Lookaway, Cricket Flourtown or Merion? What say you?

In my 10 years at Commonwealth, I birdied 18 once. Par is an outstanding score there and so is bogey. 

The 18th at Lookaway, while visually intimidating - is a pushover. The fairways is generous and rarely does one have longer than 7-iron into the green if played from the appropriate tee.

[Bob Harris]

Haven't played Merion, but of the other three, I think Commonwealth's 18th is the hardest.

[Michael Blake]

Kelly,

I played Lederach this morning, and while I didn't play well, I had lots of FUN.  The variety of holes, angles and the different options around the greens made it FUN.  (By the way--$30 before 8am on weekdays is a steal)

I've played a handful of courses  where most holes were dead straight and tree-lined.... Boring and NOT FUN, regardless of my score.

One can certainly blame the design for an unfun round, but I agree with you that they shouldn't blame the design if they don't score well, which I think was your point in your last post.



....sorry for the thread hijack

[Mike_Cirba]

LedgeRock is a very hard golf course for a person who can't carry the ball very far.

It is very scenic, but also an extremely difficult property.

There are some very good holes that at their best reminded me of my favorite Rees Jones course, Olde Kinderhook.   There is also a terrific short par four on the back that is actually incredibly subtle and non-obvious in it's challenge, which is very unusual for Rees.

Unfortunately, there are also a handful of atrocious holes, largely caused by negotiating the extremes of the property.   

Personally, I would have loved to see how a guy like Kelly or Doak would have routed it, because I suspect it would be quite a different golf course.   Of course, I also suspect that Doak would have walked, but after playing Morgan Hill, I think Kelly would have taken it on and come up with something more balanced.

[Tom_Doak]

Kelly:

So how is the big name working out for them?

[Dan Herrmann]

Kelly,
I sure don't have any idea how Ledgerock plays, and I only judged it on its apparent "fun" factor as seen from a couple of spots around the parking lot and fitness center.    Honestly, I tried to get on (I'm always up for playing any new course), but the employees I talked with in person at the club, let's just say, weren't having a good day.   Surprised me, becuase we'd be thrilled to show anybody around our place.

But you're right now playing a tougher course makes you a better player if you have enough patience.

PS -  the conditioning, at least that which I could see, looked fantastic.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I played LedgeRock yesterday in the Shivas Irons Society event. Due to an afternoon storm while my group was on the 7th hole play was delayed about 2 hours. I went back out after the storm cleared and played through the 13th hole. My group started playing from the green tees(6396y) but after a few holes moved up to the whites(6117y)

As Bob Harris noted in his post above, the course is too hard for most players. However, given the membership will play the course on a frequent basis, with proper course management the course can be learned. I would not suggest anyone whose handicap is above a 10 play from anywhere other than the white tees. The scorecard, however, suggests the white tees for 21+ handicaps and the green tees for 11-20 handicaps. This is insane IMO.


Here are the ratings/slopes:

Rock 7241y 75.1/155
Blue 6735y 73.0/152
Green  6366y 71.3/148
White 6117y 69.8/140

I would like to see what Jim Engh would have done here given the mountainous nature of the site.

I'll be back here again for another masochistic play in the GAP Member Play Day next Tuesday. Maybe i'll take some pictures.

The club lacks a clubhouse but the locker room and pro shop /dining buildings are very impressive as is the driving range with 4 indoor indooor stalls.

[D_Malley]

Your remark about 18 at Commonwealth brings up the topic of most difficult finishing hole in the area- Commonwealth, Lookaway, Cricket Flourtown or Merion? What say you?

In my 10 years at Commonwealth, I birdied 18 once. Par is an outstanding score there and so is bogey.

what about #18 @ Paxon Hollow?

[D_Malley]

Played Ledgerock about three weeks ago and liked it.
I would probably prefer it on a day 2 day basis over Commonwealth.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

D Malley

Aren't you a pro?  LedgeRock is a course for low handicappers IMO. 140 slope from 6100y tees is not an everyday course for me.

I've only played PH twice and haven't birdied 18.

Right now I'd play Commonwealth 9-1 over LR. #1 It's easier to walk. LR is non walkable. #2 I can manage my game at Commonwealth. Perhaps if I played LR frequently my verdict would be different. Out of the 13 holes I played, I did par 4 holes but I was in my pocket on 2 holes. I did like the ambiance at LR.  Very nice locker room building.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Well...I returned to play LR yesterday for the GAP Member Play Day. The Senior group played from the white tees. In my foursome was a 5 handicapper from Running Deer. He had a great day and shot a 77.  The rest of us,all mid handicappers, struggled to say the least. We did play all 18 holes as the thunderstorms never materialized.

As Tom Doak mentined above, it is a tough site, not only from a map but from actual play. It is unwalkable. There are forced carries of substance galore.

Here is my take on the holes:

The par 3s- 2 & 4 are very similar. Both forced carries. 10 is a good drop shot. 16 is nothing special-just a lake on the left side below a steep slope. Just stay right.

The par5s- 7 requires a forced carry on the 3rd shot to the green so the first 2 shots are very important.The layup area has a sharp drop to the wetlands area creating an awkward lie if your layup goes too far.

More to follow.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Par5s- cont'd- 8 is long par4 for big knockers. For mid handicappers it's another 3 shot. Not overly difficult. 13 is another long one with the second shot over wetlands and many large bunkers on the left. Keep the second shot right and you're ok. 18 features an elevated tee shot with  great views and a third shot over more wetlands.

Par4s-

1 is a difficult but solid opener.
3 features a blind tee shot over wetlands
5    "
6   "
9 similar to 1
11 dogleg right cape,probably the best par4 on the course
12 short,possibly driveable, keep it right
15 very long,may require lay up on second
17 reminds me of Rees' 18 at Lookaway in Bucks county, if you hit a good drive the second shot is uphill and long over 3 large cross bunkers,very difficult hole

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Take a tour of the course and see for yourself:

http://www.ledgerockgolfcourse.com/guests/course_layout.php

Here are some videos:

http://www.youtube.com/user/ledgerockgolf

Difficult does not make it good. That being said, I'd like to return in the fall on a nice sunny crisp day and enjoy the scenery. The summer humidity knocks me out. The greens were in excellent condition. By the way, it was a 5 hour round.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I received an email from a friend as follows:

"I have now played Ledge Rock 5 times and it becomes painful, more painful every time."

This is not a fun course IMO unless you play the right tees and are a single digit handicapper. No one in my group wanted to go out for 9 more...not even the guy who shot a 77.

[Joel Zuckerman]

As Tom Doak mentined above, it is a tough site, not only from a map but from actual play. It is unwalkable. There are forced carries of substance galore.

I respectfully disagree.  I walked/carried there last summer, then played again that afternoon (walking with caddie) at Lancaster CC.  Then we walked (either carrying or with caddies) 72 more holes the next two days at some of Philly's finest.

LedgeRock isn't easy to walk, but it's not impossible.