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John_Conley

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Newspaper Article on Golf Course Rankings
« on: July 09, 2008, 04:26:56 PM »
This ran in today's Orlando Sentinel

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GOLF CONFIDENTIAL

Online course rankings set stage for great golf debate
Jeremy Fowler | Golf Confidential
July 9, 2008
WINTER GARDEN

The list of nationally adored and universally known golf courses is short.

Augusta National.

Bethpage.

Pebble Beach.

And, of course, Stoneybrook West.

If one of these seems out of place, you're right. Augusta National is waaaay out of its league here

In reality, Stoneybrook West is a quaint, respectable little golf course in Winter Garden off State Road 429. It's a place where Central Florida residents can pay as low as $32 for a weekday round.

It's also the 27th-best golf course in the country, according to Golflink.com.

Welcome to the world of unpredictable online rankings of golf courses, where the underdog can outdistance TPC at Sawgrass. That's what Stoneybrook West did in Golflink's 2008 rankings. Sawgrass was No. 42. Even Pebble Beach somehow landed on No. 81 through a ranking system that might seem less predictable than a 5-year-old playing darts.

The only Central Florida course to top Stoneybrook was the Bay Hill Club and Lodge, fueled by Arnold Palmer's star power and Tiger Woods at the Arnold Palmer Invitational.

You've got to love that through the power of user-driven golf sites, golfers can generate a voice in an otherwise smug world of golf course design. No offense to Stoneybrook, but it probably wouldn't sniff the top 100 on a Golf Digest ranking.

Even General Manager Jeff Andrews knows that. But thanks to online voters who gave Stoneybrook a "5 out of 5" overall rating, here we are.

Sawgrass, which hosts the PGA Tour's Players Championship -- you know, stadium course, that water-logged 17th hole, maybe you've heard of it? -- posted a 3.5 in the value category compared to Stoneybrook's 5.

"In reality, we're not in the same category as some of those courses," Andrews said. "But at the end of the day, we'll embrace a ranking like this because it only helps the marketing of your golf club. Plus we feel we provide a great experience for our visitors, so we can give legitimacy to awards."

Andrews even received a certificate of authenticity from Golflink, which calculates the list based partly on "the preferences of up to a million or more visitors to our site every month." The Sentinel left messages at Golflink's main offices.

Regular customers have taken notice and mentioned the ranking to employees, Andrews said. Business has been booming at Stoneybrook.

No. 77 Torrey Pines might have had a historic 19-hole playoff and a hobbled Woods at last month's U.S. Open, but Stoneybrook has star power, too. " Bart Bryant comes out here in the evenings," said Jon Andal, an assistant pro at Stoneybrook. "He loves our Tif Eagle greens."

You heard it here first, folks. Stoneybrook West is PGA Tour approved. Maybe more golfing stars will visit the storied fairways of Stoneybrook West now that it has graced Golflink's list.

Take that, Stoneybrook East.

"We might have to bring that [certificate] to our next meeting to show it off," Andrews said.

West and East, which is closer to UCF, are owned by Kitson & Partners.

Bill Shiles, the director of golf for Stoneybrook East, said his course is more happy for its counterpart than jealous. But is West better? Shiles must disagree with Golflink, saying the two at least share a tie. "From a competition standpoint, if they are 27th, we might be 26th," Shiles said.

Soon enough, the rest of Florida will feel the wrath of Stoneybrook West. Watch out, Arnie. The pride of Winter Garden golf is coming after your course and its No. 12 ranking.

Where these two will be ranked in 2009 is anybody's guess.


Read Jeremy Fowler's blog at OrlandoSentinel.com/roughingit or e-mail him at jfowler@orlandosentinel.com.


Kalen Braley

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Re: Newspaper Article on Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2008, 04:41:08 PM »
This sounds like a potential problem with the voting process.  Any hack with a bit of programming skills can create a bot to go online and cast a vote for something like this over and over again.

It'd be interesting to see what Golflink has done, if anything, on its side to prevent these sorts of things. 

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Newspaper Article on Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2008, 04:43:39 PM »
The problem with any online poll is that you have to wonder whether they do anything to stop people from stuffing the ballot box.

Years ago, when GOLFWEEK was primarily a Florida publication, they used to have a reader poll on the 50 best courses in Florida.  A club called Bloomingdale Golfers' Club used to get every one of their members to fill out the ballot and rate their own course #1 ... so it always finished ahead of Seminole, which was about #9 or something.

John Kavanaugh

Re: Newspaper Article on Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2008, 04:46:45 PM »
It is no different than letting raters vote on courses where they are members.  The sample is so small that it still skews the vote.  I value no one golfers opinion over anothers and enjoy this type of system.

John_Conley

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Re: Newspaper Article on Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2008, 04:53:25 PM »
Years ago, when GOLFWEEK was primarily a Florida publication, they used to have a reader poll on the 50 best courses in Florida.  A club called Bloomingdale Golfers' Club used to get every one of their members to fill out the ballot and rate their own course #1 ... so it always finished ahead of Seminole, which was about #9 or something.

Bingo.

And after Charley Stine sold GOLFWEEK to Rance Crain he started a similar regional/state publication and did the same thing.  High-profile PGA Tour courses like Innisbrook-Copperhead, Doral, the TPC Stadium, and Bay Hill always finished in the Top 5.  Virtually every reader had seen them and most had played these.  A great private course like Jupiter Hills or Indian Creek was seen so many fewer times that readers didn't name them. 

Where do you think Mountain Lake finished on Stine's lists?

In a state with roughly a thousand courses it never made the Top 100. 

I have no problem with such a list because I know what I'm looking at.  However, it is erroneous to conclude that Bay Hill is a better course than John's Island-West.

John Kavanaugh

Re: Newspaper Article on Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2008, 04:58:07 PM »

However, it is erroneous to conclude that Bay Hill is a better course than John's Island-West.


Says you.  My parents live in Vero Beach and I would much prefer to play Bay Hill.  The list has some great features and interesting questions.  For example, how or why would the kinds of people that get invited to Chicago Golf Club go on this site and rate the course?

The complete list... http://www.golflink.com/top-golf-courses/

Jason Connor

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Re: Newspaper Article on Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2008, 04:58:26 PM »
The key is to use technology to get personalized ratings.

For example, there is probably a golfer with tastes very similar to mine who has played far more courses than me, or at least a somewhat different set of courses.  I value his opinion / list more than any magazine or website's list (even a well thought out and well executed one).

For example, anyone who has Netflix knows that you see the overall average ranking and the ranking of "People like you."  That's the ranking that really matters and I've been pretty fortunate using it as a guide to pick movies.

It's the same as having a friend with similar tastes in music.  When he says "You've got to hear this new band" you trust him far more than the reviews in Rolling Stone.

So ideally there would be a website where we can all rate courses and it would be smart enough to find raters whose ratings correlate to our own and then provide us with personalized rankings "For Architecture Snobs Like You."






We discovered that in good company there is no such thing as a bad golf course.  - James Dodson

John_Conley

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Re: Newspaper Article on Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2008, 05:03:46 PM »
It is no different than letting raters vote on courses where they are members.  The sample is so small that it still skews the vote.  I value no one golfers opinion over anothers and enjoy this type of system.

Top 100 United States Golf CoursesThe GolfLink Top 100 United States Golf Courses lists the best golf courses out of more than 20,000 public and private golf courses across the country. Where most golf magazines rate golf courses based soley on the subjective views and limited experience of a handful of editors, our list is calculated from a more objective range of factors, including the preferences of up to a million or more visitors to our web site every month. This makes our Top 100 United States Golf Courses list the definitive online guide to the best U.S. golf courses, and a great resource for figuring out where to play.

Jaka, I'm not sure about your math here.  Using GOLFWEEK as an example, let's say Victoria National has been seen by 40 panelists (I don't know the actual number) and 3 members are casting a vote for their home course.  Is that 'skewing the data' much?  Not really.

You're point would be valid if 10 members were comprising the bulk of the 12 ratings on a course, but that isn't happening.

I went to golflink.com after reading Fowler's article.  That list has been posted here before.  "limited experience of a handful of editors"?  Which publication is that?  Not Golf Magazine, GOLFWEEK, or Golf Digest.

I'm glad you like the Golflink approach.  No kidding, I've never even heard of many courses they cite.

(FWIW, I like Stoneybrook West just fine.  An Art Hills course, much of the work was probably done by Mike Dasher from this site.  A good course.  It might even be Top 200 in Florida.  Top 30 in the US?  Prolly not.  Unless a whole lot of courses closed last month.)

John_Conley

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Re: Newspaper Article on Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2008, 05:12:57 PM »
The list has some great features and interesting questions. 

Yes, there are a lot of questions.

Kearney Hill Links? (#4)
Baywood Greens? (#10)
Glen Mills? (#11)
GC of South Georgia - Sunsweet Hills? (#13)
Pennsauken? (#18)
Dauphin Highlands? (#19)
Eagle Point? (#33)
Mountain Ranch? (#35)
Eaglebrook? (#56)
Shingle Creek? (#59)

Shingle Creek isn't the 59th best out of the 100 courses that are closest to it.

I think the best question is who will be the first person to play all of the Top 100 on this list.  Guys have done it for the GD list and Golf Mag Top 100 in the World.  Anyone do it yet for the Golflink list?

John Kavanaugh

Re: Newspaper Article on Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2008, 05:14:41 PM »
I really enjoy reading the individual reviews or each rater.  I wish the major publications would allow us to link to each individual rater report.  The thing I don't understand is how Bethpage is rated number one and it does not get all five star reviews.  I also could not find where Philip Young had voted 5000 times.

Mike Mosely

Re: Newspaper Article on Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2008, 06:30:20 PM »
thats why the zagats guide is such a mess...one year it had centennial as the number 11 course in the nation!

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Newspaper Article on Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2008, 07:59:45 PM »
What a mess - Audubon's Gen. Washington ranked higher than Overbrook in the Penn. ratings?

Glen Mills higher than Merion East??

And Columbia-Edgewater didn't even make Oregon's list.

Who are they trying to convince?

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Newspaper Article on Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2008, 08:19:58 PM »
These type of "ratings" are nothing more than popularity contests and make no differentiation between public and private. The GD Places to Play ratings(1-5 stars) are very similar and are ripe for ballot stuffing by owners. Their weight, in the greater scheme of things, is meaningless and not even worthy of discussion.

By the way, Gen'l Washington in Audubon, PA is now known as Shannondell.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Phil_the_Author

Re: Newspaper Article on Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2008, 08:27:15 PM »
With Bethpage Black ranked #1 you know that I have to believe it is the finest, most accurate and set the standards for any magazine, website or person who ranks golf courses!  ;D

John_Conley

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Re: Newspaper Article on Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2008, 08:37:17 PM »
Phil, by all accounts Bethpage is a wonderful golf course.  You admittedly don't play a lot now.  How many others have you played?  It isn't the only outstanding course in our country.

Sean Leary

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Re: Newspaper Article on Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2008, 09:20:33 PM »
A Kentucky Course finally gets some respect!!!!! Paging Doug Ralston ;D

These are hysterical.    I like how they call it the definitive list.

Phil_the_Author

Re: Newspaper Article on Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2008, 10:39:32 PM »
John,

I said that in jest... Even I wouldn't rank Bethpage as #1, though maybe 2 or 3...

As far as my playing... I'm aactually about to find myself with the opportunity to play a bit more often and am, to quote John Kavanaugh, open to invites!  ;D

JeffTodd

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Re: Newspaper Article on Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2008, 10:59:07 PM »
I've played soooo many more of the courses on this Top 100 list...

Tim Bert

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Re: Newspaper Article on Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2008, 11:12:22 PM »
A few random observations:

I bet the folks associated with Sand Hill are breathing a sigh of relief that they snuck onto the list at #100.

Cypress Point had a legitimate shot at #1 if the original rater didn't give it 1/2 star.  With only 8 votes total, that first one is a dream killer.

One rater gives Pinehurst #2 a 2-star rating and says "One of Ross's better courses."  I guess this person just doesn't like Ross or else doesn't understand the star system.


mike_beene

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Re: Newspaper Article on Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2008, 11:55:10 PM »
4 out of 5 dentists surveyed recommended trident for their patients who chew gum.

John_Conley

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Re: Newspaper Article on Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #20 on: July 10, 2008, 12:04:00 AM »
4 out of 5 dentists surveyed recommended trident for their patients who chew gum.

Seriously, one doctor in five recommends sugared gums?  That's a question I've always wanted answered.  I'll go to the dentist that's okay with me chomping on Bubble Yum and Big League Chew, thank you.

mike_beene

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Re: Newspaper Article on Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #21 on: July 10, 2008, 12:07:57 AM »
I am sure the one had many kids to put through college.Don't pick the cardiologist who says eat all the fries you want either.

Bob_Huntley

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Re: Newspaper Article on Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #22 on: July 10, 2008, 12:09:13 AM »
It would seem to me that just about all golf course ratings are mendacious at best.

Whereas a goodly number of golf magazine raters have  wangled there way on to some of the prestigious private clubs in the country,yet precious few have been invited to record their views at Augusta National.  AN gets into the top two or three every year. What, from seeing the Masters on the TV?

Bob

John_Conley

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Re: Newspaper Article on Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #23 on: July 10, 2008, 12:35:36 AM »
It would seem to me that just about all golf course ratings are mendacious at best.

Whereas a goodly number of golf magazine raters have  wangled there way on to some of the prestigious private clubs in the country,yet precious few have been invited to record their views at Augusta National.  AN gets into the top two or three every year. What, from seeing the Masters on the TV?

Bob

Bob, I'll look up mendacious.   I probably agree with you.

I assume people don't cast a vote unless they've played or walked the course in question. 

JWinick

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Re: Newspaper Article on Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #24 on: July 10, 2008, 12:55:42 AM »
These rankings are meaningless.  I just looked up IL and Chicago Golf Club was #1 with a total of 2 votes.