Updated Prairie Dunes profile is posted

[Sean Leary]

Loren Roberts shot 62 from the White tees in the US Senior Open.  Much more fun from there doing that.

Sean:

The course was listed as playing at 6646 the day Roberts shot his 62.

Phil,

They didn't play it anywhere near that length (ala the US Open this year at Torrey) ...I am guessing it was 63-6400 tops..

[brad_miller]

Tom Paul, I tend to agree that certain hole corridor fairway cuts could be wider (the same thing could be said for that wonderful CB MacDonald course in Philly ) But given that the club (both clubs) has been committed to hosting USGA events every 6-7 years it may not be realistic. That said the following holes could be candidates.

#5-maybe both sides, although in both cases this would not provide better attack angles
#6**-always have felt the big dune on the right about 230 out off the back tee should have more right fairway, this would provide a better angle of attack.
#11-Slightly more room on the right although this doesn't create better angle.
#17**-Wonderful short par 5 with hogs backed shaped fairway, very difficult to hold, some more width on both sides might make sense, although given the length of the hole...

This all being said sometimes the slightly larger first cut actually prevents some balls from ending up in the real bad stuff. Maybe Ran can ask Bill about this??

[Tony_Chapman]

Tom, I tend to agree that certain hole corridor fairway cuts could be wider (the same thing could be said for that wonderful CB MacDonald course in Philly ) But given that the club (both clubs) has been committed to hosting USGA events every 6-7 years it may not be realistic. That said the following holes could be candidates.

#5-maybe both sides, although in both cases this would not provide better attack angles
#6**-always have felt the big dune on the right about 230 out off the back tee should have more right fairway, this would provide a better angle of attack.
#11-Slightly more room on the right although this doesn't create better angle.
#17**-Wonderful short par 5 with hogs backed shaped fairway, very difficult to hold, some more width on both sides might make sense, although given the length of the hole...

This all being said sometimes the slightly larger first cut actually prevents some balls from ending up in the real bad stuff. Maybe Ran can ask Bill about this??

Huck -- I'd tend to agree with Brad on most of this; particularly the 5th and 17th as they most always play directly into the prevailing south Kansas wind. Five really makes one concentrate on the tee shot as the dune on the left is close and it's garbage on the right side. I think it's one of the better Perry holes.

[Sean Leary]

Tom Paul, I tend to agree that certain hole corridor fairway cuts could be wider (the same thing could be said for that wonderful CB MacDonald course in Philly ) But given that the club (both clubs) has been committed to hosting USGA events every 6-7 years it may not be realistic. That said the following holes could be candidates.

#5-maybe both sides, although in both cases this would not provide better attack angles
#6**-always have felt the big dune on the right about 230 out off the back tee should have more right fairway, this would provide a better angle of attack.
#11-Slightly more room on the right although this doesn't create better angle.
#17**-Wonderful short par 5 with hogs backed shaped fairway, very difficult to hold, some more width on both sides might make sense, although given the length of the hole...

This all being said sometimes the slightly larger first cut actually prevents some balls from ending up in the real bad stuff. Maybe Ran can ask Bill about this??

Brad,  I said the same thing as your last statement here on a thread a few weeks back. I do believe that it does that and helps the  keep it in play. 

[Phil McDade]

Loren Roberts shot 62 from the White tees in the US Senior Open.  Much more fun from there doing that.

Sean:

The course was listed as playing at 6646 the day Roberts shot his 62.

Phil,

They didn't play it anywhere near that length (ala the US Open this year at Torrey) ...I am guessing it was 63-6400 tops..

Sean:

That would require the USGA to shorten every single hole at PD by 15-20 yards on average. Do you really think they did that? Either that, or they shortened significantly -- at least 30-40 yards -- roughly half of the holes played. I don't think they did that, either.

The USGA at TPines really only significantly shortened three holes -- the par 4 on the back nine that went down to @ 270, the par 5 where they didn't use the newly created, back-back tees that created more of a diagonal tee shot, and the front nine par 3 that was played a couple of times at @ 150 yds.

Roberts 62 at PD, I'd argue, was less a result of a shortened course than a remarkable ball-striking and putting round. He hit 11/14 fairways/ 14/18 greens, and took 24 putts, which is pretty remarkable for those greens at decent speed (Roberts' greatness as a putter notwithstanding).

[brad_miller]

Don't forget the wind. I believe there were light winds during the entire Senior Open. The course plays significantly tougher (relative to most others) in 20 plus MPH (which is pretty typical) wind regardless of direction.

[Sean Leary]

Loren Roberts shot 62 from the White tees in the US Senior Open.  Much more fun from there doing that.

Sean:

The course was listed as playing at 6646 the day Roberts shot his 62.

Phil,

They didn't play it anywhere near that length (ala the US Open this year at Torrey) ...I am guessing it was 63-6400 tops..

Sean:

That would require the USGA to shorten every single hole at PD by 15-20 yards on average. Do you really think they did that? Either that, or they shortened significantly -- at least 30-40 yards -- roughly half of the holes played. I don't think they did that, either.

The USGA at TPines really only significantly shortened three holes -- the par 4 on the back nine that went down to @ 270, the par 5 where they didn't use the newly created, back-back tees that created more of a diagonal tee shot, and the front nine par 3 that was played a couple of times at @ 150 yds.

Roberts 62 at PD, I'd argue, was less a result of a shortened course than a remarkable ball-striking and putting round. He hit 11/14 fairways/ 14/18 greens, and took 24 putts, which is pretty remarkable for those greens at decent speed (Roberts' greatness as a putter notwithstanding).

Maybe you are right on the yardage.  What I did notice on TV was how many of the holes that they played up.  I believe at least 1,2,5,9,13,14,15, and 17 were all played up.  Holes like two were played close to 30 yards shorter to a front hole where everyone was scaring holes in ones all day.  Also as Brad said, there was almost no wind that day.  15-20 MPH on that course makes a big difference.

[John Kirk]

You could knock 150 yards off the distance by shortening 9 and 13 to more manageable distances.

[Phil McDade]

Sean:

Agreed about the wind and PD; I do think, from watching a fair amount of that tourney, that the seniors went lower than I would've expected. It played considerably tougher for the women a few years earlier at the Open (two players under par) in what I recall as tougher conditions.

John:

Would shortening 9 and 13 serve the overall purpose/flow of the course? Looking at Ran's reviews and other things I've read about PD, aren't those two holes meant to be really tough, long, par 4s that call for stern examinations of a golfer's ball-striking skills, both off the tee and into the green? PD strikes me as having a nice mix of par 4s, and a course of this caliber ought to have a pretty stern test of a par 4 among the mix, no?

[David Kelly]

For those of you who have played it this season, what do you think about the loss of trees on 6, 8, & 9 (and a few other areas) and the denuded trees throughout the course?

I was worried about it before I got there (especially the loss of the one on eight) but I really liked the new look.  Standing on the first tee you now get a terrific panoramic view of the course and can see every hole onh the front except 5.  I also liked the fact that #12 has been opened up.  A poor drive is still punished on 12 but a drive in the fairway is now more rewarded.  The only loss of trees that I lament are the two trees flanking the middle tee on #9.  Even though I rarely played that tee I like the look from the tee box.

The new back tee on #8 has been built and sodded.  It reaches almost as far back as the back tee box on #1.

Phil,

PD was played substantially up throughout the Senior Open.  Some examples, there was a grandstand erected on the back tee on #1, they played #2 from the white tee box and on one day (Friday?) they played #15 with 9 irons from what looked like the black tee box.

[Sean Leary]

David,

I miss the trees by the tee boxes on 6 and 8. I like 12 as well.

[Sean Leary]

Phil,

The back tees on 9 and 13 have been lengthened in recent years. I prefer 13 from one of the up tee boxes so you can challenge going over the left bunkers.

[Jeff Loh]

62? At Prairie Dunes?
Where is the plaque?
My guess is that most people who have 24 putts in a round are going to score pretty well.

But 24 putts on those greens? He must have a breakfast of codeine and valium.

Having played 81 holes there recently in 3 days the update is particularly timely.
The greens were re-grassed in sept/oct of last year and just opened for regular play on memorial day. They were outstanding --my guess is most people don't notice unless they know beforehand. not sure if they went the usga route or not but they were superb, albeit a bit "slow".

And here is the point. No matter how well or poorly you are playing there has to be an element of "defensiveness" in your head. Less so, in my mind, about blowing it right or left into the native shite on the drive (or second shot, as I found out). But more in the fact that hitting greens in regulation (or playing "safely" for bogey) is no guarantee of a respectable score.

A three putt is only a slightly missed stroke away. 8 feet for birdie and three putting? It gets in your head pretty quickly. Each and every green is a blast to putt and a conundrum to "figure out." Add the wind and multiple hole locations on each green and it's a course you can play twice in one day with completely different "results."

Is it "benign" when the wind is down? Maybe. Is it a "bear" when the wind is up? Certainly.
Sound like one (some....all) of those famous courses over the pond? That's what makes if fun and unique.
Is 12 a "better" hole with the trees pruned by nature? Yes...because now you focus more on the green complex ( totally agree...it's one of the best) instead of the trees.

I do miss the tree on six tee. If my wife and I were ever reincarnated we wanted to come back as birds that nested there.

Don't miss the trees on 8 and 9 so much for reasons already stated.

Anytime you get greater vistas of such a special place is fine with me.

Go

[TEPaul]

“This all being said sometimes the slightly larger first cut actually prevents some balls from ending up in the real bad stuff. Maybe Ran can ask Bill about this??

Brad,  I said the same thing as your last statement here on a thread a few weeks back. I do believe that it does that and helps the keep it in play.”


Brad and Sean:

Bill who? If you’re talking about Bill Coore I already discussed that with him.

Those quite wide first cut rough areas keep the ball in play? Well, yes of course they do that to some degree but is that really a valid reason to have them? I sure don’t think so. I would like to see those areas with only a narrow band for turning mowers used on most of those holes. I think that would encourage golfers to actually go for some of the angles on purpose that are now in really wide bands of rough. Perhaps the best example is on the right of #8 (there're certainly numerous other good examples around the course). It seems pretty foolish to me to actually play into that angle and area on #8 (and others around the course) which shortens the approach and to be in a wide band of rough.

Furthermore, if PD used or does use that old fashioned "up and back" fairway mowing pattern they really don't even have to have narrow bands of rough to turn mowers.

[Sean Leary]

“This all being said sometimes the slightly larger first cut actually prevents some balls from ending up in the real bad stuff. Maybe Ran can ask Bill about this??

Brad,  I said the same thing as your last statement here on a thread a few weeks back. I do believe that it does that and helps the keep it in play.”


Brad and Sean:

Bill who? If you’re talking about Bill Coore I already discussed that with him.

Those quite wide first cut rough areas keep the ball in play? Well, yes of course they do that to some degree but is that really a valid reason to have them? I sure don’t think so. I would like to see those areas with only a narrow band for turning mowers used on most of those holes. I think that would encourage golfers to actually go for some of the angles on purpose that are now in really wide bands of rough. Perhaps the best example is on the right of #8 (there're certainly numerous other good examples around the course). It seems pretty foolish to me to actually play into that angle and area on #8 (and others around the course) which shortens the approach and to be in a wide band of rough.

Furthermore, if PD used or does use that old fashioned "up and back" fairway mowing pattern they really don't even have to have narrow bands of rough to turn mowers.

Tom,

I don't disagree with your angles comment. However the biggest criticism about PD is that losing balls in the gunsch gets old quick.  If the gunsch was more forgiving (which it cannot be due to maintence costs) I would agree with your statements 100%. Right side of 8 IS a great example, because it would shorten the approach but would make it blind, and a harder angle coming over the bunker to that ferocious green.

For higher handicapper particularly, I believe the wide swath of rough helps them in general, thats all.

[John Kirk]

Jeff Loh,

Thanks for pointing out how grea the greens were.  We played a week ago; the new greens surfaces were superb, smooth as glass, rolling in the 10 to 10 1/2 foot range.

[John Mayhugh]

Those quite wide first cut rough areas keep the ball in play? Well, yes of course they do that to some degree but is that really a valid reason to have them? I sure don’t think so. I would like to see those areas with only a narrow band for turning mowers used on most of those holes. I think that would encourage golfers to actually go for some of the angles on purpose that are now in really wide bands of rough. Perhaps the best example is on the right of #8 (there're certainly numerous other good examples around the course). It seems pretty foolish to me to actually play into that angle and area on #8 (and others around the course) which shortens the approach and to be in a wide band of rough.

TEPaul,
What tees have you played from at Prairie Dunes?  I think the angles that you refer to come into play already.  The bands of rough provide some necessary margin of area between fairway and lost ball.  This is especially valuable when one tries to play at the desired angle and misses slightly.

[Greg Ohlendorf]

I have to throw this in. I made a 185 yard 5 iron on one for a two and then lipped out a one on number two, which finished a foot away for my second two in a row. Probably should have quit there...but what a great track!

[Mike_Cirba]

I love everything internal at PD, but I have the same issue there as I do with Bayonne.

For a windy site, holes lined with the long grass equivalent of water hazards become quickly overly penal and unforgiving for anyone off their game.

[Thomas MacWood]

I thought the coridors were plenty generous.

[Mike_Cirba]

I thought the coridors were plenty generous.

Tom,

You're certainly right about that.   They aren't unfair by any means.

Perhaps my expectations were a just different than reality.   I had expected the gunch to be playable...or even findable, only to learn quickly that in mid-summer season the stuff is jungle.

It was also a very windy weekend...sort of microwave weather, and a number of us struggled.   

I guess I like to find and hit my misses, but this is minor harping on my part.   It's a wonderful golf course.

[brad_miller]

Mike, it was hot wasn't it. That time for whatever reason saw the most balls in all my trips go into the gunch. Possibly the wind which was constant at 20-30 MPH. Even Jeff Loh, sandbagger that he is, who recently shot a smooth 75 from the tips lost probably a dozen PV1's that trip.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike, it was hot wasn't it. That time for whatever reason saw the most balls in all my trips go into the gunch. Possibly the wind which was constant at 20-30 MPH. Even Jeff Loh, sandbagger that he is, who recently shot a smooth 75 from the tips lost probably a dozen PV1's that trip.

Brad,

It was so hot it burned most of the hair off my head! 

If the wind wasn't blowing at 25-30 we'd have probably all melted.

Ironically, it wasn't there that I got dehydrated but later at Sand Hills.

Those were certainly fun, memorable days.