[Craig Van Egmond]

Tom,

            Is Oakmont fun?  Pine Valley?  Shinnithingie?  How well do the high handicappers play there?

             Prairie Dunes is only like 6100 yards from the white tees.. how hard can that be.     

[Tom Huckaby]

John K:  great stuff, just what I was after.  So it is "fun" as I characterize that term from the white tees?

Craig:  I would not call any of those courses "fun" as I define the term.  I wondered if Prairie Dunes moved beyond this, given Ryan and others have said how much fun it is.

TH

[Craig Van Egmond]

Tom,

      With your game you would score well at PD.

      Mr. Kirk is right, much better to be short and straight than long and wild at PD, so it really depends on what type of high handicapper you are.

      Is fun more important than challenge to you? 

      I personally look forward to every tee shot and every hole at PD, even though I got no game.  Its a course I could play all the time no problem.

      Fun has probably more to do with attitude than any course. I remember playing Pac Dunes with Norbert and he was spraying balls everywhere but no one had more fun that day than he did. When I grow up I hope to be just like him.

[Sean Leary]

Honestly, Tom I think it is hard to explain.  For your game, I think it would be as fun as any. You hit it straight, and long enough that will will have very few long irons into any pars 4's. (The other part that isn't depicted in pictures is how great the greens are.  They are just incredible, and add tremendous fun to the round.

I will give you an example of why it can be hard fun.  Number 7 is a reachable par 5 that was playing very downwind when we were there.  Three of the 4 of us were low handicap golfers, and basically hit good drives each round,  where we were hitting 7 iron to sand wedge for our second.  There is a narrowish gap that fronts the green, with bunkers left and right, surrounded by the gunsch to the outside. Each shot, you could see the player look and try to figure out.

1) Do I fly it all the way there to the wider part of the green and bring the guncsh into play if I am left or right.

2) Do I try to bounce it in short, and roll it on (but bring the bunkers in play)

One of the group said "I can't believe that I have wedge into a par 5 and I can't figure out how to play it and I am scared to death to pull the trigger on the shot. Every day."  

There are some breather holes for a decent player.  3, 6, 7 and 14 and ones which you feel like you should have a consistent chance at birdie every round. Holes 1, 3, 6, 11,14  are par 4's with VERY generous landing areas.  The pars 3's are shortish irons for 3 and 1 mid iron.

There are just no holes where it doesn't matter where you hit it.  You hit into Simperville and the ball is gone.  So you have to be dialed in on every shot. And when you are not, and you hit a really loose one, you pay.

A high handicapper could lose just about many golf balls at Pacific Dunes, especially a slicer. At Pacific, a big slice means a probable  lost ball  on 1,2,4,6,7,8,10,14,15,16, and 18. I only use Pacific because I know you find it great fun.  But you can have just as miserable a day at Pacific during a round as you can at Prairie Dunes.

PS. Rumors of my travelledness, and certainly astuteness and knowledge are vastly exaggerated.

PPS. I do think that Ballyneal is more fun than Prairie Dunes.  If Prairie Dunes had native vegitation similar to Ballyneal where you could find stray shots and play them , I would think it would be more fun.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom,

      With your game you would score well at PD.

      Mr. Kirk is right, much better to be short and straight than long and wild at PD, so it really depends on what type of high handicapper you are.

      Is fun more important than challenge to you? 

      I personally look forward to every tee shot and every hole at PD, even though I got no game.  Its a course I could play all the time no problem.

      Fun has probably more to do with attitude than any course. I remember playing Pac Dunes with Norbert and he was spraying balls everywhere but no one had more fun that day than he did. When I grow up I hope to be just like him.

Craig:

I can have fun playing this game on the doggiest of dog-tracks.  If anyone has an attitude more devoted to loving the game and having fun playing it than I do, I have yet to meet him.   That is not the issue.

The issue is that some courses are more fun than others, for me. 

Many have called this course PARTICULARLY fun, and that is what I am having a hard time reconciling.  To me it looks very very difficult - and Sean calls it the most difficult course in the world - and that to me lessens the pure fun.

But John K. has simply and efficiently explained it well.  It would seem it can be fun as I see it from the white tees.  That''s really all I needed to know.

TH

[Tony_Chapman]

Tony:

I have never played Prairie Dunes.  My take is completely from pictures, what I've seen on TV and descriptions here.

And I do not mean to compare it to any one course.

I just have a hard time reconciling "most difficult course in the world" with the word "fun."

So please do educate me - why is it FUN?

Note I assume it is GREAT.  I assume it deserves every accolade it has received.

TH

ps - the course we played together - Wild Horse - I see as more fun than married guys are allowed to have... if that helps at all.

Huck -- This will kill you, but I have Prairie Dunes just above Pebble Beach and Pinehurst is my "rankings". So, it's SH, PD, Pebble and the Deuce for me. Part of PD is the experience as well, for me. The clubhouse is unbelievable: pictures of Nicklaus in the Trans-Miss, Snead, Watson, etc. It was the first time I had ever experienced something like that. It's a place that loves their heritage; I believe they have had just two or three head professionals in the history of the course.

I love that's it a short golf course, by today's standard, yet you are always thinking. The Maxwell's didn't really kill you with any 460-yard monstrosities and the club has chose not to do that to this day. The short holes require a unique blend of different shots and there is great variety in the other holes as well. I can't imagine a great setting for a tee shot than the one on the 10th. As I've stated earlier, the nine holes that Perry Duke built are ALL world class holes for me.

Put this way, I'm equidistant from Prairie Dunes and Sand Hills and could easily in the summer leave early, play 36 and get home late. If you gave me 10 rounds between the two, I'd go to Prairie Dunes four times. Call me crazy.

[Tom Huckaby]

Honestly, Tom I think it is hard to explain.  For your game, I think it would be as fun as any. You hit is straight, and long enough that will will have very few long irons into any pars 4's. (The other part that isn't depicted in pictures is how great the greens are.  They are just incredible, and add tremendous fun to the round.

I will give you an example of why it can be hard fun.  Number 7 is a reachable par 5 that was playing very downwind when we were there.  Three of the 4 of us were low handicap golfers, and basically hit good drives each round,  where we were hitting 7 iron to sand wedge for our second.  There is a narrowish gap that fronts the green, with bunkers left and right, surrounded by the gunsch to the outside. Each shot, you could see the player look and try to figure out.

1) Do I fly it all the way there to the wider part of the green and bring the guncsh into play if I am left or right.

2) Do I try to bounce it in short, and roll it on (but bring the bunkers in play)

One of the group said "I can't believe that I have wedge into a par 5 and I can't figure out how to play it and I am scared to death to pull the trigger on the shot. Every day."  

There are some breather holes for a decent player.  3, 6, 7 and 14 and ones which you feel like you should have a consistent chance at birdie every round. Holes 1, 3, 6, 11,14  are par 4's with VERY generous landing areas.  The pars 3's are shortish irons for 3 and 1 mid iron.

There are just no holes where it doesn't matter where you hit it.  You hit into Simperville and the ball is gone.  So you have to be dialed in on every shot. And when you are not, and you hit a really loose one, you pay.

A high handicapper could lose just about many golf balls at Pacific Dunes, especially a slicer. At Pacific, a big slice means a probable  lost ball  on 1,2,4,6,7,8,10,14,15,16, and 18. I only use Pacific because I know you find it great fun.  But you can have just as miserable a day at Pacific during a round as you can at Prairie Dunes.

PS. Rumors of my travelledness, and certainly astuteness and knowledge are vastly exaggerated.

PPS. I do think that Ballyneal is more fun than Prairie Dunes.  If Prairie Dunes had native vegitation similar to Ballyneal where you could find stray shots and play them , I would think it would be more fun.

Great stuff Sean, many thanks.  You've sold me.

Hope to get there some day.

TH

[rjsimper]

Tony - it wont kill Huck for you to say its highly ranked to you, but it will kill him if you say it is highly ranked in the fun department.   I don't even bother talking to him about it anymore save for the occasional rib.

[corey miller]

Tom H.

Aren't you a "dual rater" both for a publication and for a golf association helping clubs get course ratings for handicap purposes?

Maybe these course and bogey ratings will help?

Prairie Dunes:

middle  71.1    96
back     74.2    100.5

Shinnecock:

middle   71.1   95.8
back      74.2   99.9

Friar's Head:

middle    72.1  97.6
back       74.1  100.9

NGLA:

middle   71.7  96.4
back      73.6  99.1

Not sure what the disagreement is about here and why one would think that any of these courses beat someone up anymore than others.  I wish we had a Sand Hills rating but it is the only club in the world that can't be rated  

Don't these bogey ratings take all your misgivings about PD into account?

[Tom Huckaby]

Wow... guys, I get it, I really do.  John's post and Sean's was enough.

I was just having a hard time reconciling "most difficult course in the world' with "fun."

I get it much better now.

Thanks!

TH

ps = Corey that does help a lot.  Given prior descriptions I would have thought PD's ratings to be quite higher.  Thanks!

[Sean Leary]

Loren Roberts shot 62 from the White tees in the US Senior Open.  Much more fun from there doing that.

[John Kirk]

As I see it, all comments so far are correct.  Sean Leary's summary is particularly good.

Challenge is part of golf's fun, and I know some low handicappers who value challenge as an integral part of their enjoyment.

As I told my host, who will eventually chime in, I have six words to describe Prairie Dunes:

"Damnit!  Let me try that again."

[Sean Leary]

The other part that I find hard fun about it is I can't tell you how many times that during a round that I hit pretty good shots into greens that  are on the green for a second or more then roll off becaue it wasn't on the proper side.  The chipping area grass is pefect.  You can bump it, flop it whatever.  My partner in the meber guest last year shot 73 in a practice round hitting 4 greens, because he is a great chipper and putter.  He was licking his chops over chips because he could do what we wanted with the golf ball.

Mr. Kirk,

Did you have any lowish rounds? (John was on the PD is too hard group, and is an excellent player).

[Tony_Chapman]

I have no more words, but submit the work of Rand Jerris.

http://www.ussenioropen.com/2006/news/personal_narrative.html

[Phil McDade]

Loren Roberts shot 62 from the White tees in the US Senior Open.  Much more fun from there doing that.

Sean:

The course was listed as playing at 6646 the day Roberts shot his 62.

[Tom Huckaby]

I guess what screws this up is that I am a relatively low handicapper for whom challenge is part of the fun, but not an integral part.  Call me the anti-Ward.

It leads me to confusion about difficult courses.  On the other hand it gets me too excited for others.  I am not sure Ballyneal can possibly live up to my expectations, for example.  Thus I am trying to downplay such in my mind there.

In any case, I have come to the conclusion that I would have a blast playing Prairie Dunes.  I'm not entirely sure why I didn't get it before... but stories of very high scores and the like from players I know are better than me, combined with pictures showing waste-high rough, well... father forgive me for I have sinned.

So what is my golf act of contrition?

TH

[John Kirk]

Increasingly tired at the end of a week of intense golf, I shot:

78-81-84-92, trying but deliriously tired at the end.

The 78 included two triples, including the 18th hole, right after the eagle.  Toed a 7-wood into the shit twice.

It just doesn't set up well for me, and I wasn't hitting the ball well by the end of the week.  I am a mediocre driver of the ball, and I started getting stuck and flipping the club at the ball, for those of you who know what that means.  The greens are small, and in many places you can't get away with rolling hooks at the greens.  Most greens there require a soft approach shot.

I think the 78 (post 76 for a USGA index round of about 1.6) is my low round of about 10 tries.

[John Mayhugh]

John M,

Congrats on your eagle (you too John K...). Did you find Prairie Dunes to be more demanding than Ballyneal? I'd think the driving is more difficult at Prairie Dunes given the width at Balllyneal. Any other thoughts comparing these gems of the heartland?

I thought Prairie Dunes was more demanding than Ballyneal in that poor shots were punished more harshly at PD.  The gunch at Prairie Dunes is pretty intimidating and rightfully so.  It is especially tough when hitting shots where the landing area isn't visible.  Fortunately (or unfortunately) we didn't have especially strong wind at PD during any of our rounds.  Enough to make holes more interesting, but not enough to be scary.

Ballyneal was more receptive to the ground game from the fairway while many of the greens at PD are elevated.  From close to the green, the variety of potential shots to get up and down was equally great at both courses.  You could pitch, chip, or putt with practically any club so long as you were precise.  

I also thought that at Ballyneal you could play angles to gain an advantage, while approaching from the correct spot was almost a necessity at Prairie Dunes if you wanted to hit & hold the green.  

I'm very appreciative of having the chance to play those two courses back to back.

[Tony_Chapman]

Huck -- My brother plays off scratch and lives in Wichita and has been there a few more times since my one visit.

He says this, "The greens make it what it is, no doubt.  Tee to green its just not that difficult, unless it blows 30." That sounds like a fun golf course to me, though I would disagree with him that it's "not that difficult" from tee to green. Oh, well he's not as smart as I am.

So what is my golf act of contrition?

TH

Easy. Three Hail Mary's and a round at the The Warren Course.  That's as Catholic as it gets.

[rjsimper]

In 6 rounds my best was a 78 that posted as a 74...finished the round with:

Par
Quad
Birdie
Quad
Bogey

[Tom Huckaby]

Tony:

Of course you realize that as a USC Trojan fan, you just gave me one hell of a punishing act of contrition.  But I suppose I deserve it.

TH

[Tony_Chapman]

Tony:

Of course you realize that as a USC Trojan fan, you just gave me one hell of a punishing act of contrition.  But I suppose I deserve it.

TH

It's the least I could do after the Carroll - Callahan debacles of the past two seasons. Is it fall yet?

[Kirk Gill]

Looking at the picture of the 8th green in Ran's writeup (and not having played the course) I'm a little thrown by the yucca that seems to have almost taken over one of the bunkers. The plant shows up on bordering other bunkers as well. Heather is one thing, but yucca is sharp and tough, and I can't imagine ever being able to hit out of it.

For those who have played the course - have you hit into the bunker-edge yucca, and is there any recovery possible or do you just sigh, take an unplayable, and move on?

[TEPaul]

The overall angles are all so good at Prairie Dunes----as an amalgamation of fairway or hole corridor angles, bunkering, green orientations, internal green architecture, greenside bunkering and greenside fall-offs etc, I would just love to see those wide bands of first cut rough reduced to just enough to turn mowers (if that's their mowing pattern). I know the consulting architects would like to see that too. It may be the kind of thing which is just a cost issue for the club and if so I do understand that and appreciate it but I just think with a golf course like that one that is so good they could go the last mile on that.

[Kyle Henderson]

Looks like another goat track to me... 

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