[Jay Flemma]

What do you all think about graduated pricing based on weekdays and weekends all inclusive including greens fee, cart rental, range balls depending on the tee times so as an example:

Weekdays
7 AM to 12 PM is $99
12 PM to 3 PM is $79
3 PM to 6 PM is $59

Weekends
7 AM to 12 PM is $119
12 PM to 3 PM is $99
3 PM to 6 PM is $79

I come from the same school of thought and I believe that greens fees and rates to play good courses are out of control.  I like the graduated pricing model and it also can limit play during specific times during the day.  Players would line up on the tee sheet at 12 PM and 3 PM to get the lower rates to play a really good course.

I truly feel that at some point the increasing cost of golf is going to hurt the game and in the process some really good golf courses will start losing money due to driving away their loyal players that were willing to pay a fair price for a qulaity golf experience.

Dear Matt:

Here is what I think - based on ONLY playing one Perry Dye course, but MANY Pete Dye courses.  I think that most Dye courses I've played are better than Pound Ridge - examples include Kiawah, Bulle, Nemacolin, PGA Golf Club, PDGC, PGA West, and Sawgrass.

Be sure to have Pete do the routing and make sure to focus on the strategies and the greens.  Example...far from the camera eye, and far form the eye candy of other holes on the course...holes like 14-15 at nemacolin and 14-15 at sawgrass are essential...draw off the tee, fade into the green, then the next hole fade off the tee, draw into the green, with the flow of the hole and positioning of the hazards reflecting the ideal shot shapes.  Pete does great greens, so you'll have no problem there.  Other things like 12 at Bulle rock.  There;s water all along the right on this par-3, but an insidious pot bunker on the other side of the green.  play safe by aiming away form the water and you run the risk of going into the bunker and playing the sand shot back towards the water.  Those are the little things I missed seeing more of at Pound ridge.  Perry has his dad's look and feel down pat, but his work at Pound ridge was more penal than strategic, so just keep that thought in the foreground.  Again, a lot will depend on the parcel of land and they had handcuffs on at Pound Ridge.

I like the idea of your pricing.  But where is the town located?  Is it near any other good golf, exciting cities, or other diversions?  No matter what,as Mike Strantz said, "play every pete dye course you can at any price."

Dean, nice to see you swinging on a vine in the treehouse.

[Ash Towe]

This is a very interesting question.  When you factor in travel and accomodation costs it can get quite frightening.
For me it involves travel to the US or the UK.  The air fare starts for the US starts at $2400.  So there has to be more than one destination and what attractions are there for my wife etc.  By the time you have done all this green fees are not the major consideration but obviously there is a limit.  So I guess it would be $500 for a Pine Valley or Shinnecock but there would have to be more than one course involved to justify the other expenses.

[Sean_A]

This is an interesting question as we not long ago had a debate about where to play our links trip next year.  Northern Ireland came up and the price of £155 (call it $300) for Co Down was mentioned.  Nearly everybody balked.  I think our group has reached saturation point for green fees even though we only pick one of these really pricey courses per trip.  To be fair, some of the folks recall the last time we were at Co Down.  Great course, but the welcome was poor.  Personally, I would pay the cash for another look, but it is very, very borderline. 

I wouldn't pay anything like $300 for a public course.  I did it at Pinehurst and learned a lesson.  I wouldn't pay the green fee to re-play Pine Needles (~$220), but I might pay for Mid-Pines if the situation was right.  I spose my limit for a once/twice a year public might be about $125, about what The Road charges.  Generally speaking I would begin to ask serious questions at around $50 for a throwaway public game - one where it doesn't matter too much.

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

$2000 to play Augusta (£1000) thats the figure most of my friends/ members say they would play... Augusta is probably the ultimate must play for us UK errs'... I expect St Andrews would still do okay at $1000 a go.

[JWinick]

Love this topic.   I played the Wynn Golf Course (which will eventually be demolished for further expansion down the road) last year for $500.  Fortunately, a customer paid for it, but I did not think it was worth it.   I believe Cascada and Shadow Creek are both $500 as well.  To my knowledge, that's the higest price any public course charges in the US.   

I would pay up to $500 to play other exceptional golf courses.   For Augusta, if I were to assume that I will never, ever be invited legitimately in my lifetime, I would pay $10,000 for the experience.   Shoot, Sergei Brin is paying $50MM for the chance to go to outer space, so I don't think $10,000 is outrageous for a once-in-a-lifetime experience.

The only way to answer this question is if you assume that you can never receive an invite.   Most of us wouldn't pay a high price because we believe we might get an invite some day.   I wonder if rounds are ever auctioned at Augusta for charity.   How much do they go for?   I've got to talk to the United Way of Augusta, GA people!

I've also heard you can play the course on the last day of May if you're a caddy.  So you could caddy for a couple of weeks and then get to play on the last day the course is open. 

It's a shame that Augusta didn't keep the old tee-boxes when they extended the course a few years ago.   While 7300 yards wouldn't be as fun, I would love to play it as it played for the pros before the "Tiger-proofing."   

[Brad Fleischer]

This really got me thinking. I feel the green fee's have absolutely gotten out of hand. With that said here is a quick break down of three courses I usually play at twilight rates. Agreed my choices are slim because I reside in Staten island and no I'm not a millionaire so all the "great courses" of new York and NJ are for the most part only seen through pics and an occasional lucky invite. I'm golf deprived and I'm in a horrible location but here you go.... Royce brook 80 bucks, architects 69,neshanic valley 55. Most of my rounds are at Royce as its a closer drive but none are with in a half hour , most of the time it's a minimum of 45. Granted by today's rates I guess the price's are "fair" but do I think any of them are worth what there charging "no". So I guess it's pay or don't play. Now I say to myself that I take at least 2 golf trips a year with friends or solo. We try and find places where you get the most bang for your buck and if they have twilight rates we book them. You add in air and food etc and its minimum a 1000. Most of the time it's more than that especially when we go play a "destination" course.Do I wish it was different yes but it is what it is so I guess for a once in a life time opportunity to play the likes of Augusta,pine valley,shinnecock,fishers island,cypress etc I would go up to 1000 but would need a months notice so I could save up lol!!! Now ask me if any course is worth that much ummmmm no but I know I would pay it in a heart beat to see if its hype or really that religious experience everyone talks about. Now only if I could find that place, it be ten min's away and no one knows about it but me and the green fee is a honor box!!!  

PS all rates are twilight and weekend  

[astavrides]

Here is what I think - based on ONLY playing one Perry Dye course, but MANY Pete Dye courses.  I think that most Dye courses I've played are better than Pound Ridge - examples include Kiawah, Bulle, Nemacolin, PGA Golf Club, PDGC, PGA West, and Sawgrass.

if Nemacolin is better than Pound Ridge, then I definitely wouldnt pay more than $100 to play Pound Ridge.

[John Burzynski]

I have never paid over $100 for a round of golf, and I suspect that I never will 9inflation not withstanding).    I just don't see any course as being worth that kind of money, when I can play the nicest of courses in my area for $50 -$75 max.

Maybe this demonstrates a lack of heart for the game or the top courses, but over $100 is just too much for a round of golf anywhere.  As much as a round at Pebble or elsewhere is 'that much more special' than a round anywhere else, it isn't worth that much money to me.

Like the poster said above, when did a round of golf become a luxury item?

[Tom Birkert]

This is a tricky one. While I don't like the increase in rates that seem to have been happening over the past few years, the strength of the £ compared to the $ makes you think you are getting a better deal.

I've paid for Pebble, I've paid for Pinehurst, paid for Kiawah etc - and next on the list is probably Bandon.

Golf is my major passion and if I'm travelling to the US I generally want to play the best courses I can in the area, normally regardless of price.

The one major difference is the cost of playing at private clubs - even with a member. Over here that normally is very reasonable, but in the US, in general, the cost is still pretty high.

Personally, I get more annoyed at paying $150 for a average course than double that for a very good course.

The idea of graded tee times I think is a good one, and what about the idea of implementing an airline system which adjusts costs based on availability? Book early and it's cheap, book at an unpopular time and it's cheap, but book late or book a popular time and it's much more expensive?

[Bruce Katona]

Matt Varney: The reply I typed a few minutes ago didn't take, so her goes again...The business model you're looking at with graduated pricing is spot on, but look at the model in reverse....you should by now know the following:

Cost of Land
Proposed costs for design and permitting
Course Construction Estimate
Clubhouse Construction (with FF&E- furniture , fixtures  and equipment)
Maint. Equipment (lease/purchase)
Cost of Capital and projected ROI on equity
Annual Operating Expenses to run the place

You should also have an idea on the average number of rounds played in the market.... if there is saturation in this market or if the demand is there for another facility.

Now take the Annual projected Operating Expenses and divide by the average number of rounds played in the area....that should give you the greens fee/round (example $1,000,000 year Annual Expense 20,000 round average means $50/round average greens fee to break even operationally)  you need to break even...if you think the fee/round is too low, now factor in the cost of the annual debt service on all the money you borrowed to build the place ( we use 10% as this accounts for some repayment of principal...say you borrowed $6,000,000 - annual debt serive is $600,000 or $30/round if you average 20,000 rounds/year)....still money left, now your onto ROI ( return on capital) which is money back to the projects pertners.  Right now the course in my example needs to average $70 round to cover all costs, which is a pretty steep average greens fee....one of three things needs to happen:
1. Increase play to generate revenue
2. Decrease project costs
3. Decrease expenses

And it would be a combination of all to make this example work best.

e-mail with any questions you may have.

[Jerry Kluger]

I think that anyone who is serious about GCA has to make the effort to experience what is recognized as top quality architecture.  Perhaps it means making the effort of going to PV to see the Crump Cup, or maybe it means playing a cheap muni instead of an upscale course and saving up the difference for a trip to Bandon, the Ocean Course, or perhaps the Strantz courses in Myrtle Beach or Williamsburg. 

To say that you would not pay more than X dollars is not realistic.  (ANGC is an exception because for some reason people like to brag that they've played it and put a higher price on it for that reason.)  But think about how much you would pay to play NGLA, Shinnecock, Sand Hills, Cypress, etc., be realistic.  It is not only the experience of playing course but the opportunity to see and learn so much about what you love.  If you want to give a credible opinion about the quality of a golf course, then you have to have the background to do so.  I think you can learn a great deal from reading about GCA, but seeing great architecture and experiencing it, is a prerequisite to a complete understanding of what quality is all about.   

[Cliff Hamm]

What do you all think about graduated pricing based on weekdays and weekends all inclusive including greens fee, cart rental, range balls depending on the tee times so as an example:

Weekdays
7 AM to 12 PM is $99
12 PM to 3 PM is $79
3 PM to 6 PM is $59

Weekends
7 AM to 12 PM is $119
12 PM to 3 PM is $99
3 PM to 6 PM is $79

I come from the same school of thought and I believe that greens fees and rates to play good courses are out of control.  I like the graduated pricing model and it also can limit play during specific times during the day.  Players would line up on the tee sheet at 12 PM and 3 PM to get the lower rates to play a really good course.

I truly feel that at some point the increasing cost of golf is going to hurt the game and in the process some really good golf courses will start losing money due to driving away their loyal players that were willing to pay a fair price for a qulaity golf experience.

Matt...I think the graduated pricing idea is ideal.  Twilight at 3 is fine at the height of the summer in NE but as daylight fades it becomes more iffy.  The graduated reduced rate avoids that.  It also would seem to keep the course busy throughout the day.

[John Kavanaugh]

I think that anyone who is serious about GCA has to make the effort to experience what is recognized as top quality architecture.  Perhaps it means making the effort of going to PV to see the Crump Cup, or maybe it means playing a cheap muni instead of an upscale course and saving up the difference for a trip to Bandon, the Ocean Course, or perhaps the Strantz courses in Myrtle Beach or Williamsburg. 

To say that you would not pay more than X dollars is not realistic.  (ANGC is an exception because for some reason people like to brag that they've played it and put a higher price on it for that reason.)  But think about how much you would pay to play NGLA, Shinnecock, Sand Hills, Cypress, etc., be realistic.  It is not only the experience of playing course but the opportunity to see and learn so much about what you love.  If you want to give a credible opinion about the quality of a golf course, then you have to have the background to do so.  I think you can learn a great deal from reading about GCA, but seeing great architecture and experiencing it, is a prerequisite to a complete understanding of what quality is all about.   

Jerry,

Are you telling me that when discussing the great courses in the world with my 13 year old son I can only credibly discuss courses I have played?  When it comes to paying I am not spending $500 on any course where there is a chance I will bump into a trade publication rater playing for free. 

[Chris Avore]

I've paid for Pebble, I've paid for Pinehurst, paid for Kiawah etc - and next on the list is probably Bandon.

Golf is my major passion and if I'm travelling to the US I generally want to play the best courses I can in the area, normally regardless of price.

I absolutely have to agree with Tom B. and Jerry K. (initials added so as not to confuse my citations as those from cartoon characters).  

I simply enjoy the *experience* of some of the world's best golf courses, and to have access to that experience I understand there will be a price to pay.

As such, I have a decent value system I can apply to expensive or inexpensive golf courses.  After paying $200 for Kiawah, I'm not interested in paying almost double that to play Harbourtown.  However, if I could find an out of season rate, I'd love to play an early Pete Dye course that really put his tour courses on the map.

And really, after you've played the Pebbles, the Whistling Straits, and the Pinehursts, there's really not much super-expensive golf out there that's worth playing.  I'd much rather spend $500 at Bandon (2 days at $200, plus one $100 replay) then drop it at the Wynn Course--but again that only comes from appreciating, or valuing, what you're witnessing and how you interact with the entire course experience.

There are few things in the world where my jerk self can experience the absolute best the world has to offer, and I'm all the more lucky that it happens to be golf.

And while John's concern is valid, I don't know how much of life you can experience if you withhold yourself based on if someone else is paying less than you for the same thing.

[Jerry Kluger]

JK: The six private courses I mentioned have no interest in having raters play their course unless they are guests of a member.  Yes, you can discuss the great courses of the world with your son, and I am sure that your son will accept your opinion as credible, although he certainly will not as to many other subjects. My point was that your education, experience and background with respect to a subject are factors to be considered when determining the weight to be given to your opinion in that area.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Matt Varney: The reply I typed a few minutes ago didn't take, so her goes again...The business model you're looking at with graduated pricing is spot on, but look at the model in reverse....you should by now know the following:

Cost of Land
Proposed costs for design and permitting
Course Construction Estimate
Clubhouse Construction (with FF&E- furniture , fixtures  and equipment)
Maint. Equipment (lease/purchase)
Cost of Capital and projected ROI on equity
Annual Operating Expenses to run the place

You should also have an idea on the average number of rounds played in the market.... if there is saturation in this market or if the demand is there for another facility.

Now take the Annual projected Operating Expenses and divide by the average number of rounds played in the area....that should give you the greens fee/round (example $1,000,000 year Annual Expense 20,000 round average means $50/round average greens fee to break even operationally)  you need to break even...if you think the fee/round is too low, now factor in the cost of the annual debt service on all the money you borrowed to build the place ( we use 10% as this accounts for some repayment of principal...say you borrowed $6,000,000 - annual debt serive is $600,000 or $30/round if you average 20,000 rounds/year)....still money left, now your onto ROI ( return on capital) which is money back to the projects pertners.  Right now the course in my example needs to average $70 round to cover all costs, which is a pretty steep average greens fee....one of three things needs to happen:
1. Increase play to generate revenue
2. Decrease project costs
3. Decrease expenses

And it would be a combination of all to make this example work best.

e-mail with any questions you may have.

Bruce - I think your spot on with this. I have advised for 20 years that potential golf courses should do the sums in reverse, ie work out what $$$ per round will work x that by 30,000 then spend within that amount so as to ROI in 10 years. You can work marginally outside these lines but there is not much tolerance if you want to treat things as a business.

[John Kavanaugh]

And while John's concern is valid, I don't know how much of life you can experience if you withhold yourself based on if someone else is paying less than you for the same thing.

I think my $500 criteria leaves me plenty of experiences.  I'll be fine not playing golf in Vegas and have tried to qualify for tournaments at Pebble before.  I still have a life goal of someday qualifing to play at Pebble and will continue that dream when I become a senior golfer in less than two years.  And a pipe dream it is.

This leads to an interesting way to play great courses.  Get better and qualify because entry fees are cheap...

[rjsimper]

For those of you that wont pay more than 100 bucks, I ask:

If you got an invite to play Augusta National next weekend, green fee free, and to do so you have to find a flight from JFK to Augusta ($400), rent a car for 2 days $80, pay for gas and airport parking ($50) and a hotel room nearby ($100)

Do you still consider this a free green fee?

Same question to raters who are not accustomed to paying...if Shinnecock invited you for a comped outing, and you had to hop a flight from Chicago to NY, and go through all the song and dance to get out to LI, is the $500 in travel costs not what you are paying for that round?

[John Kavanaugh]

JK: The six private courses I mentioned have no interest in having raters play their course unless they are guests of a member.  Yes, you can discuss the great courses of the world with your son, and I am sure that your son will accept your opinion as credible, although he certainly will not as to many other subjects. My point was that your education, experience and background with respect to a subject are factors to be considered when determining the weight to be given to your opinion in that area.

None of the courses you mentioned charge anywhere near $500 when accompanied by a member.

Ryan,

Travel costs do not count in the cost of a round unless you are a paid golf writer or architect whose job depends on you playing a given course.

[Jerry Kluger]

JK: I know they don't but the question posed was how much would you pay if you had the opportunity to play a round at one of those courses and you did not have access through a member? For example, myself, if I was to pay $500 to play a round, I would sooner play CPC than PB. On the other hand, I would not pay $250 to play some high end public which is not in the league of Bandon, etc. 

[rjsimper]

Ryan,

Travel costs do not count in the cost of a round unless you are a paid golf writer or architect whose job depends on you playing a given course.

Why not?

If I was invited to play Sand Hills next weekend, and it cost me $500 to travel there and $100 to play, haven't I paid $600 to play Sand Hills?

[John Kavanaugh]

Ryan,

Travel costs do not count in the cost of a round unless you are a paid golf writer or architect whose job depends on you playing a given course.

Why not?

If I was invited to play Sand Hills next weekend, and it cost me $500 to travel there and $100 to play, haven't I paid $600 to play Sand Hills?

No...You get on a slippery slope if you then start subtracting money you would have spent at home if you were not at Sand Hills.  Even worse I have heard, and even done the same, of people who justify paying for golf because they will not be losing money in a casino.  It can make golf free in the properly sick mind.

I even convinced myself once that if I joined a course in a town with a casino I wouldn't gamble anymore in that town so I couldn't afford not to join.  Oops...how long do you think it was before I was back in that casino?

[Brent Hutto]

This topic is a perennial one and I'll reply same as last time. I'd pay almost any price for a guaranteed good experience at one of the double handful of courses atop my own "want to play one day" list. Well, OK maybe not a thousand bucks but probably five hundred anyway. The problem is there are no such guarantees. Pebble Beach is always brought up as an example...

If I could arrange to be on the Monterey Peninsula and had the opportunity to show up and take a look at the course conditions, weather and the group I'd be playing with I'd consider it entirely reasonable to pay their rate of $400-odd under conditions that assured a full experience of the course. But if I showed up and found just-punched green, sopping wet fairways, cold drizzle and a foursome of 30-handicappers in carts I wouldn't pay a quarter of that price to play. Unfortunately, the Pebble Beach company asks for their pound of flesh in advance last I checked.

So that leaves me somewhere in the range of $200 max if I have to play at a given time no matter the conditions. That's as much as I'm willing to risk on a washout, if not more. And that would have to be a very desirable (to me) course. I've paid $200 or more for Royal Birkdale and Kiawah's Ocean Course (twice) and both were quite well worth the price. Not sure either would have been worth $400-$500 though.

P.S. Oops, left out Spyglass Hill at $290. It was worth it given the course was nigh empty and in absolutely immaculate shape on a lovely, breezy day. Plus I was playing with Lou Duran which is always nice. But that was really pushing it price-wise I must admit.

[rjsimper]

Ryan,

Travel costs do not count in the cost of a round unless you are a paid golf writer or architect whose job depends on you playing a given course.

Why not?

If I was invited to play Sand Hills next weekend, and it cost me $500 to travel there and $100 to play, haven't I paid $600 to play Sand Hills?

No...You get on a slippery slope if you then start subtracting money you would have spent at home if you were not at Sand Hills.  Even worse I have heard, and even done the same, of people who justify paying for golf because they will not be losing money in a casino.  It can make golf free in the properly sick mind.

I even convinced myself once that if I joined a course in a town with a casino I wouldn't gamble anymore in that town so I couldn't afford not to join.  Oops...how long do you think it was before I was back in that casino?

Point taken, and this is particularly true when it comes to food...be it on a golf trip or any vacation at all, really.

But how does this apply to travel but not the cost of golf itself?  If I wake up one morning and pay $57 to play Rustic Canyon knowing that if I hadn't played I would have gone to a movie and bought popcorn and a soda for $20.  Did my round at Rustic Canyon cost me $57 or did it cost me $37?

[Brent Hutto]

But how does this apply to travel but not the cost of golf itself?  If I wake up one morning and pay $57 to play Rustic Canyon knowing that if I hadn't played I would have gone to a movie and bought popcorn and a soda for $20.  Did my round at Rustic Canyon cost me $57 or did it cost me $37?

It cost $57 by any rational reckoning. It's not like buying a new battery for your car and saving the cost of a tow truck. Forgoing the round at Rustic in no way obligates you to buy the movie ticket, popcorn and soda.

Now if you're talking about justifications to ones spouse that isn't a rational undertaking, there's a certain element of irrationality due to desperation. But the round really does cost $57. If you call a tail a leg how many legs does a dog have? Four. Plus a tail that's called a leg.

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