[Philippe Binette]

just curious to see what is the steepest hole that works out there... or when you design, what is you go/no go line for steepness of a hole....

just thinking Augusta 10th goes down 30 yards out of 450 yards = 6,7%

seen steeper
does a ball hold on 12 % (faurway)

[James Bennett]

Phillipe

Balls holding on a 12% fairway?  Not if the grass is dormant, or is cut short, or has a microfine leaf, or that is running (leaf-wise) with the slope.

Royal Melbourne is fortunate that it has stayed with the traditional two-grass (couch/poa).  Those fairways are unlikely to hold a ball with some of the recent fashionable drought-tolerant fairway grasses.

James B

[Tom_Doak]

Philippe:  Dr. Hurdzan's book says if a fairway has a sidehill grade of steeper than 4%, you have to fix it.

The fifth fairway at Merion is 10%.

Somewhere in between those two is enlightenment.

[Adam Clayman]

Tom, what's the grade on 10 in Holyoke?

[Sean_A]

Isn't grade also a function of width and visibility?  For the most part I have seen very few holes which were silly in terms of grade (including Merion's 5th), but I have seen a few.  I thought the problem had more to do width.  Additionally, I have always believed that if a shot is blind then the benefit of the doubt should go with width especially on sloped fairways.

Ciao

[Jeff_Brauer]

My mentors always said 7% was the slope where a ball would keep rolling on its own on a typical fw.  FW are now like greens used to be - as they get mowed tighter, they need to get flatter.  I recall Cherry Hills 18 played fine in 1979 but by the next major, that fw had too much cross slope to allow play near the water.

Just the other day, I had a punch out shot at a Fazio course that hit nicely on the left side of what looked to be a flat fw, and it rolled into the pond on the right side of the fw, and that couldn't have been more than 4%.  That was on a bermuda 419 fw.

But, I have seen bluegrass fw at 10%. I have a course in Colorado with some 10-11% fw cross slopes.  If you are hitting into the fw slope, those work.  If its a down slope, they kick the ball into the rough, so that matters a little bit, too.  Ditto at Colbert Hills with Zoysia fw.

JN wrote that the fw cross slope should be a single digit %, which means under 10%, similar to Tom's theory.  I also try to match max slopes to the iron left to play - generally flattening the down slopes for long irons because those are so hard to play off downhill lies.

So, the answer might vary depending on the overall situation, as with most other aspects of design.  Since you only get to build it once, I recommend you be a bit conservative unless you can measure similar slopes in that climate, turf type, etc.

[TEPaul]

I remember playing with one of the old members of NGLA who had been there like forever and he was telling me that Macdonald's intention with the 5th hole (Hog's Back) was that if you hit your tee shot too far left on the fairway or without the right shot shape the ball would just fall off the fairway into some pretty high stuff. Take that for whatever it's worth. 

[Doug Ralston]

<a href="http://img60.imageshack.us/my.php?image=stone20crest201320tee1ty0.jpg" target="_blank"><img Try again. Hmmm, someday this will work for me. 490 yd steep par-4 at StoneCrest

[Bart Bradley]

Doug:

Is this what you wanted to post



Your welcome.

Bart

[Doug Ralston]

Bart,

Thanks, how'd you do that.

Yes, unfortunately, you do not adaquetly get the sense of how really steep this fairway is. When the land is dry your ball will roll a long way, but it will stop eventually. Still, I have seen people hit it all the way to the bottom with a low driver, leaving about 75yd. I can't come close. And with woooded area left and high fescue right, this is a very tough hole. Wait till you hit that downhill lie.

Fun hole one a fun course [some of which you can see from the picture]. Built on regrown strip mined mountain, like Twisted Gun. Even better course. Great use of reclaimed land!

Doug

[John Sheehan]

Doug, Bart,
Where is this course?  Who was the architect?
Thanks,
John

[Doug Ralston]

John;

Just saw your question.

This course is Stonecrest, in Prestonsburg, KY. It is built on a revamped strip mine [like the more famous and obscure Twisted Gun in WV, but a far better course]. It is obviously vertical pretty often, but also well designed, smoothly paced, exceptionally well conditioned, and one very fun and scenic course. With Eagle Ridge, Hidden Cove and other quality courses nearby, a great destination [and almost absurdly low prices].

The pictured panorama is seen from #13 tee, with the back tee behind the photographer [Ron Watterson]. That is "Moe, exiting the Old man tees"  says Ron.

The architect is Chris Chrisman, who, as far as I know, designed only one other course, Clear Creek in VA. Out of curiosity, we tried that one later and even though on a very different landform, was very fun. Talent there, IMHO.

Doug

[Kevin Pallier]

Mollymook Hilltop on the south coast in NSW has some of the steepest fairways I've ever seen. The 1st (downhill) and 17th (uphill) would challenge most mentioned here.

[Richard Hetzel]

Philippe:  Dr. Hurdzan's book says if a fairway has a sidehill grade of steeper than 4%, you have to fix it.

The fifth fairway at Merion is 10%.

Somewhere in between those two is enlightenment.

Tom,

what would be lurking in between here?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Sometimes pictures "steepen" slopes, but those look to be 25% or even more.

A problem with those kind of contours is that you don't see any divot marks anywhere on those hills, but if you saw the bottom of the valleys, they would be pock marked with them, as would the left rough.......

[Richard Hetzel]

In fact, that fairway looks mich more severe in person. It is the handiwork of Arthur Hills, I don't believe that is the original topography, but rather topography of the earthmover type. BTW, the course is Pipestone south of Dayton, Ohio.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Sometimes pictures "steepen" slopes, but those look to be 25% or even more.

A problem with those kind of contours is that you don't see any divot marks anywhere on those hills, but if you saw the bottom of the valleys, they would be pock marked with them, as would the left rough.......

Jeff if that is what you think of when looking at that picture then I think the problem is more with you rather than with the land.  It's a shame someone like Hurdzan would think to bulldoze that to fit his formulas.

Kelly,

I do think a constant 4% fw everywhere is pretty boring.  That said, I have seen and designed some fw like that. I always ask my supers what are the biggest maintenance nightmares I leave them with.  Whenever there are fw like that, they make the list.  Besides the divots, you can also see the stress marks from mowers on those fw edges.  In short, while a fw that rolling is kinda cool, it does pose some real world problems.

Also, is there any strategy on a fw that collects balls in just a few locations no matter where you hit it?

[Richard Hetzel]

This fairway feature is really only in play on two occasions:

1. You hit a monster draw left to cut the dogleg (see tee box view pic) and your ball ends up in there, or,

2. You hit a very poor second shot and end up in there. If you slice too far right, you stand a good chance of being in there for your third shot.

Here is the tee box view:

[Jeff_Brauer]

Rich,

Thanks for the additional photo.  Obviously, leaving those slopes between tee and main landing area (fairly gentle) and beyond main play areas is a good thing to do.  Now, of course, I have to wonder if Art leveled the fw landing area.  The tree just below it is on a slope and I doubt that in a rolling hills area, that this would be the only slope that plateaus out to a level landing area.

[Tim Nugent]

Jeff, do you really have to wonder?  Art has never met a topo that couldn't be dozed.  Look at the big gap over to the right where the mounding is, those trees were cleared the ridge flatted and the extra borrow made into the artifical moundings. 
Kelly, seems your having problems w/your aurguement.  1st. you rebutt Jeff's premise that no strategy is needed when shots landing, say 80 yds (40 on the down slope and 40 on the upslope) will come to rest the same distance from the green by saying they may be left or right of each other?  Provided, of course, you can read the slope of the fairway like a putt to anticipate the eventual stopping spot.  2nd.  By using the example of a 450 yd par 4 that, if you hit it really long, you got a speed roll to wedgeland but if you came up short you could be in 4-iron territory?  That's a 125 yds penalty for the short-hitter.  Is this the person who you would want to do that to?
Plus you assume that the architect of the course pictured actually had either the budget, equipment (could have been 100 yrs ago or rock underneath for all I know), available land to route over.
Plus, on top of the problem of divots in the swale, let's not forget that if balls collect somewhere, so will water.  This leads to wet, soggy lies (bigger divots), plus cart and mower ruts. 
PS, I just had to fill in such a swale by about 4'.  It was between shots on a long par 4 and the high-handicappers couldn't make it to the green in 2.  The swale was essentially a grassed over ravine and the V-like nature of it lead to all the problems outlined above.  I had to fill it to flatten and broaden out the bottom.  Plus the fill allowed the uptream flow to be piped under the fairway rather than flowing over it.
Jeff - How 'bout dem Cubbies? Could this be "next year"? Or will they break our hearts - again?

[Tim Nugent]

Kelly, I guess we just have a different philosophy when it comes golfers.  Now I know why people leave the game.  If you had said that if the architect did his job right, tee placement would allow for a good shot from the up tees to land where your big hit from the back tees does, I'd feel differently. 
Plus, I never said I'd bulldoze it away.  I would however, probably notch it a bit to contain shots to speed play (hard to find a ball in the rough when you don't see it land).  But that's just me.
By the way, that 4' feet I filled was in a 30' deep valley.  It didn't materially change the aesthetics, only the playability and maintainability for those who are unfortunate to have to play from there.  Who know's, maybe you in 40 yrs.   

[Adam Sherer]

Here's an example of a course that has severe fairway slope and should NEVER be modified.

http://public.eastwardho.org/Default.aspx?p=.NETCEEditorPFSTC&NoNav=1&ID=441396

[Tim Gerrish]

Kelly, could you explain what you just wrote again?  I'm not the brightest bulb and couldn't understand.  Your right, the average guy is lucky to carry it 180 yards...

Adam... you are absolutely right!  But that is where the architect needs to look at the facility type, maintenance budget, rounds, etc.  Eastward Ho couldn't handle what The Captains handles for rounds.

[Tim Gerrish]

Kelly,

I agree and disagree with both you and the "other Tim"  (No offense Tim!!)

I think we get carried away with landing areas and defining one.  Keeping in mind multiple routes of play and distances of various clubs.

Assuming no roll upon landing, the low handicapper (no unnecessarily, just longer of the tee) is left with 200 yards into the green.  For a better player they can reach and have a birdie putt most of the time.  The high handicapper now has a utility club/fairway metal and as you know is a 'long shot' (gosh with pun) to reach the green.

This is where I agree with you, throw the 'fairness thing' out the window.  That is why the USGA has couse ratings from each tee and thus each tee marker is really a separate course.

I would say though that if it is a 450 yard hole on a 7000 yard course, a tee 70 yard up would be playing roughly a 5900 yard course.  That is a distance that most average guys should be playing.  Sounds like the weekend marker placement strategy by many public course superintendents to help speed up play.    Educating the players to play at such lenthg knowingly is for another tread. 

And the red sox are back in first! Sweet Caroline.....

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tim N,

What's Red White and Blue and folds in the middle?

I think you know the answer!

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