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Thomas MacWood

The Continent 1938
« on: July 07, 2008, 10:58:26 PM »
What were the best courses in Europe in 1938, outside the British Isles?
« Last Edit: July 09, 2008, 05:58:28 PM by Tom MacWood »
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Mike_Clayton

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Re: The Continent 1937
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2008, 05:09:05 AM »
Tom,

From what I have seen - Morfontaine, Fountainebleau, Chantilly, Kennemer, De Pan, Royal Zoute, The Hague, Puerto De Hierro and probably Bremen.

The trip through the Colt and Simpson courses of Paris,Belgium and Holland is still the greatest, largely undiscovered, golf journey in the world.
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Thomas MacWood

Re: The Continent 1937
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2008, 06:21:04 AM »
I'll be looking for help on dates and attributions.

Morfontaine - 1927 Simpson

Fontainbleau - 1912 Simpson

Chantilly - 1907 Taylor, 1912-1913 Colt

St. Germain - 1920 Colt

Granville - 1912 Colt

Wimereux - 1924 Hutchison/Campbell

Kennemer - 1926 Colt

De Pan - 1929 Colt

Royal Zoute - 1910 Colt

Royal Belgique (Ravenstein) - 1906 S.Dunn, ? Simpson

The Hague - 1920 Abercomby

Hilversum - 1910 Abercromby, 1928 Colt

Puerto de Hierro - 1913 Colt

Falkenstein (Hamburg) - 1930 Colt, Allison, Morrison

Le Touquet Le Mer - 1931 Colt

Hossegor - 1930 Morrison

Chiberta - 1926 Simpson

Hardelot Les Pins - 1931 Simpson

St. Cloud - 1913 Colt

La Boulie - 1901 Park

Cannes (Mouggins) - 1923 Colt

Royal Fagnes - 1930 Simpson

Eindhoven - 1930 Colt

« Last Edit: July 08, 2008, 01:56:39 PM by Tom MacWood »
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Ally Mcintosh

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Re: The Continent 1937
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2008, 08:36:18 AM »
The course in The Hague was laid out by Colt & Allison but opened in 1939, Tom...

A few others worth considering:

Falkenstein (Hamburg) - 1930 (Colt, Allison, Morrison)

Le Touquet Le Mer - 1931 (Colt)

Hossegor - 1930 (Morrison)

Chiberta - 1926 (Simpson)

Hardelot Les Pins - 1931 (Simpson)

Royal Fagnes - 1930 (Simpson)

Eindhoven - 1930 (Colt)





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Thomas MacWood

Re: The Continent 1937
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2008, 11:28:33 AM »
Ally
I thought Abercromby was involved at some point, but I might be thinking about the old course. The current course went by a different name and was taken over by the current club at some point. If it was 1939 I probably should take it off the list.
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Wayne Wiggins, Jr.

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Re: The Continent 1937
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2008, 11:57:38 AM »
How about Colt's St. Germain?  When was the built?
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kconway

Re: The Continent 1937
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2008, 12:10:42 PM »
Mike,

I have been interested in that trip:  what should be on the itinerary??

Kelly
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Mark Bourgeois

Re: The Continent 1937
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2008, 12:52:08 PM »
Kelly,

It's very simple. Look up every course still in existence in the Low Countries + France by Colt or Simpson.  Maybe throw in de Noordwijkse.  Then play every single one.  No kidding.

Tom MacW, I would add Royal Golf Club de Belgique (Old), aka Ravenstein.  Attribution a mess: 1906 Seymour Dunn -- maybe.  (The club says if the course wasn't designed by him it was at least "inspired," whatever that means.)  Also, Simpson in the 1920s.

Trying to find out how much of what's there today goes back to those two -- especially interested to learn who's responsible for 1-4, 8, and 16-18, all of which I think are fantastic!

Mark
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SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Continent 1937
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2008, 01:02:43 PM »
Cannes (Mandelieu) - Colt
Saint Cloud - 1913 (Colt)
St. Germain - 1920 (Colt)
La Boulie - 1906 (Dunn/Park/(Reid?)
Wimereaux - 1921? (Hutchinson/Campbell)
Granville - 1912 (Colt/Allison/Hawtree)
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Mark Bourgeois

Re: The Continent 1937
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2008, 01:26:47 PM »
Oops, sorry, Tom, didn't see Ravenstein on the first pass.
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SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Continent 1937
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2008, 01:50:07 PM »


I thought Hague was Colt/Alison?

Also from Benelux:

Hilverumsche - 1910 (Colt)
Antwerp - 1912(Park)/1928 (Simpson)
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Thomas MacWood

Re: The Continent 1937
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2008, 01:57:29 PM »
In 1930 The Hague was at different site. I believe that course was destroyed during WWII.
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Mark Bourgeois

Re: The Continent 1937
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2008, 02:23:55 PM »
Is St. Andre / Knocke (1910) in here somewhere?
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Andrew Hastie

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Re: The Continent 1937
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2008, 04:02:47 PM »
A couple more, Toxandria 1928 (Morrison)
                        Rosendaelsche 1895 (van Krimpen).
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Tony_Muldoon

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Re: The Continent 1937
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2008, 05:31:18 PM »
Would, Pau, 1856, Ducwing, qualify as 'best' in 1937?  It had it's fans, earlier than that.

Golf de Biarritz-Le-Phare, 1888, Willie Dunn, shurely would?
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Let's make GCA grate again!

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Continent 1937
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2008, 06:44:56 PM »
Kelly,

You ask about what should be on the trip.

Obviously it depends how long you have.

St Cloud is very nice but not as good as the other three in Paris.
If you have an extra day I would opt for another game at Morfontaine or Fountainbleau over one at St Cloud.
Likewise with Hilversum - good but I would do two game at De Pan or The Hague.

The driving involved is minimal given you are going through three countries - just hire a car navigation 'thing' at the airport and go.
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kconway

Re: The Continent 1937
« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2008, 06:47:53 PM »
how does one go about getting on morfontaine?  i understood that it was extremely private.
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SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Continent 1937
« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2008, 07:06:17 PM »
Tony:
I think by '37 Chiberta was the main game at Biarritz.

Tom:
Why not accept Cannes Mandelieu? I'm beginning to think its not the course but the suggester. By most accounts it would seem to have been more significant than Mougins.

Also, I had thought that Hague was rebuilt before the war, not after, which would put that right around your date. 
« Last Edit: July 08, 2008, 07:09:05 PM by SPDB »
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Mike_Clayton

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Re: The Continent 1937
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2008, 07:28:35 PM »
It is difficult to get on Morfontaine.
Pleading is the only way I know - although they were always fantastic to us when we were playing the French Open close by at Chantilly in the late 80s and early 90s
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Mark Bourgeois

Re: The Continent 1937
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2008, 07:29:34 PM »
Yes, Tom, how do you decide what goes on the list?  It seems the only way is to rely on the judgment of contemporaries.

Voilà le sixième trou:

Avant (1930)...


...et après (2006):


Yecch!

À bientôt,
Mark
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Thomas MacWood

Re: The Continent 1937
« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2008, 10:33:42 PM »
Sean
Mougins recieved all the hype. Sospel was usualy cited the other course in the region. I don't know much about Mandelieu, other than it dated back to the 1890s. How good was it?

The course The Hague golf club occupies today was built before the war but they did not move there until after the war.

Morfontaine - 1927 Simpson

Fontainbleau - 1912 Simpson

Chantilly - 1907 Taylor, 1912-1913 Colt, ? Simpson

St. Germain - 1920 Colt

Granville - 1912 Colt

Wimereux - 1924 Hutchison/Campbell

Kennemer - 1926 Colt

De Pan - 1929 Colt

Royal Zoute - 1910 Colt

St. Andre - 1924 Colt

Royal Antwerp - 1910 Park, 1924 Simpson

Royal Belgique (Ravenstein) - 1906 S.Dunn, ? Simpson

The Hague - 1920 Abercomby

Hilversum - 1910 Abercromby, 1928 Colt

Puerto de Hierro - 1913 Colt

Falkenstein (Hamburg) - 1930 Colt, Allison, Morrison

Berlin Wansee - ? , 1926 Colt/Morrison

Le Touquet Le Mer - 1930 Colt

Hossegor - 1930 Morrison

Chiberta - 1926 Simpson

Hardelot Les Pins - 1931 Simpson

St. Cloud - 1913 Colt

La Boulie - 1901 Park

Cannes (Mougins) - 1924 Colt

Royal Fagnes - 1930 Simpson

Eindhoven - 1930 Colt

Estoril - 1936 PM Ross

Villa D'Este - 1926 Gannon

Milano - 1929 Gannon/Blandford

San Remo - 1931 Gannon
« Last Edit: July 09, 2008, 07:59:59 AM by Tom MacWood »
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Thomas MacWood

Re: The Continent 1937
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2008, 06:18:45 AM »
Mark
I agree, you have to rely mostly on the judgement of contemporaries, with some given more weight than others. For example Bernard Darwin in Europe of D. Scott Chisholm in California. Hosting championships is another factor, as well as photographic evidence. If the course is realtively well preserved what people think about the course today too.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2008, 07:58:14 AM by Tom MacWood »
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TEPaul

Re: The Continent 1937
« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2008, 10:24:09 AM »

Mark Bourgeouis said:
Yes, Tom, how do you decide what goes on the list?  It seems the only way is to rely on the judgment of contemporaries.

Tom MacWood responded: Mark
“I agree, you have to rely mostly on the judgement of contemporaries, with some given more weight than others. For example Bernard Darwin in Europe of D. Scott Chisholm in California.”


Tom MacWood:

What is it exactly that gives you any right or reason to give the judgment of various contemporaries more or less weight than others? You never knew those people so how can you know what they knew or didn’t know? All I can think of is you give some more weight and others less weight because doing it that way makes it easier for you to support some of your preconceptions that are already formed before you even understand a subject. That particularly bad habit and modus operandi is patently obvious on some of the things you’ve been arguing for and trying to promote on here for over five years. It’s called a preconceived AGENDA, and it’s an historical bias in its worst form. 
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Thomas MacWood

Re: The Continent 1937
« Reply #23 on: July 09, 2008, 11:04:57 AM »
TE
You are an idiot.

Not all architectural analyst are created equal. After reading his profiles and talking to him extensively I give much more weight to Ran's architectural opinion than say Matt Ward, whose tastes don't match my own, with all due respect to Matt.

Likewise after reading hundreds of articles on golf architecture written by Darwin, I am not only impressed by the scope of his knoweldge but also in agreement on most matters of preference. IMO there has never been more keen observer of golf architecture, and one of the most widely traveled and connected as well.

This is a discusion group - we are not producing the Encyclopeida Britanica. If you would like to suggest a golf course or comment upon the list feel free. If not, move along to a thread that interests you, like the rules of golf.
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Thomas MacWood

Re: The Continent 1938
« Reply #24 on: July 09, 2008, 03:43:53 PM »
Morfontaine - 1927 Simpson

Fontainbleau - 1912 Simpson

Chantilly - 1907 Taylor, 1912-1913 Colt, ? Simpson

St. Germain - 1920 Colt

Granville - 1912 Colt

Wimereux - 1924 Hutchison/Campbell

Le Touquet Le Mer - 1930 Colt

Hossegor - 1930 Morrison

Chiberta - 1926 Simpson

Hardelot Les Pins - 1931 Simpson

St. Cloud - 1913 Colt

La Boulie - 1901 Park

Cannes (Mougins) - 1924 Colt

Royal Fagnes - 1930 Simpson

Royal Zoute - 1910 Colt

St. Andre - 1924 Colt

Royal Antwerp - 1910 Park, 1924 Simpson

Royal Belgique (Ravenstein) - 1906 S.Dunn, ? Simpson

Kennemer - 1926 Colt

De Pan - 1929 Colt

The Hague - 1920 Abercomby

Wildhoeve - 1938 Alison/Morrison

Hilversum - 1910 Abercromby, 1928 Colt

Eindhoven - 1930 Colt

Puerto de Hierro - 1913 Colt

Santander - 1929 Colt

Falkenstein (Hamburg) - 1930 Colt, Alison, Morrison

Berlin Wansee - ? , 1926 Colt/Morrison

Frankfurt - 1927 Colt

Estoril - 1936 PM Ross

Villa D'Este - 1926 Gannon

Milano - 1929 Gannon/Blandford

San Remo - 1931 Gannon

Bastad - 1930 Hawtree/Taylor

Stockholme - 1932 Morrison
« Last Edit: July 09, 2008, 06:27:21 PM by Tom MacWood »
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