[Mike Hendren]

which golf courses and why?
which architects and why?

FWIW, Barney gets credit for this thread based upon a recent IM.

[Bill Shamleffer]

Isn't John Updike a member at Myopia Hunt Club?

[RJ_Daley]

Mike, who or what general demonstrated work of intellect by them would you define as intellectual?   I mean, are you talking great philospher writers sort of intellectual, or the Conde Rice brand?  

Conde likes golf...  

[Rich Goodale]

Bill s

I think Updike was an intelletutal well before he joined Myopia.  When he was writing his best work he played muni dog tracks like Candlewood and Cape Ann in the Ipswich/Gloucester corridor.  If he had been a hack writer, he'd probably still be playing there.

Rich g

[Joe Hancock]

Mike, who or what general demonstrated work of intellect by them would you define as intellectual?   I mean, are you talking great philospher writers sort of intellectual, or the Conde Rice brand? 

Conde likes golf... 

RJ,

I think he meant intellectual, as in well thought out, not cheap pot shot jabs for no apparent reason.

Joe

[RJ_Daley]

Geez Joe, if you're referring to me...   

I don't think it is pot shot, if Conde herself is taking up air time on the weekend golf broadcast, intellectualizing on the great game, why she likes it, and a little administration face time on the tube to show why they aren't really so deserving of a low approval rating, lot...  I thought her putting herself out there on the golf commentary was fairly within the bounds of this thread... It is just I don't personally think of her as so intellectual as some folks seem to be willing to pose her... just because she can multitask with playing the piano, playing golf, and reading or missreading security briefing alerts and all....

[cary lichtenstein]

Who here considers themselves an intellectual?

Do intellectuals necessarily have better tastes in golf course architecture than us plain folks?

[RJ_Daley]

In all seriousness (I know how big of a provacatuer and horses ass I can come off as to those taking offense at my not so subtle political and social commentary stuck into a golf thread) but still...

I've met a few folks on here that I suspect are pretty close to a definition of a commoner like my understanding of what might be a near-intellectual.  I know they are a whole lot smarter and impressive in their depth of knowledge of many things than I.  Yet, I refuse to give into some of their notions... 

But, to in my analysis of whether they are a real intellectual or not, I'd have to say, that if they are playing golf AND making lists of golf courses and archies, they may not be a real intellectual.  I don't think real intellectuals have the time or inclination to play and overly consider the best courses and architects.  They may play a recreational round here and there, but wasting a well functioning intellectual mind with lists of best courses and archies might be quite a waste of highly trained brain power...

then again... I might be confusing genius with intellectual... since I can't disagree with the following observation by a prof of Law, Rick Hills in a piece I tried to bring my puny brain to bare.

"I stand with George Orwell who spent the 1930s and 1940s denouncing the obscurity of intellectuals' prose as a cloak for tyranny (and, incidentally, who was also accused of being an anti-intellectual). Intellectuals spray polysyllables like squid ink, to evade the democratic decencies of conversation. I'd like not to be one of their number."

[Kalen Braley]

I think the bigger question to me is why should we care which courses intellectuals prefer.

If one is a rocket scientist, I'd be interested on his opinions about rockets, but why should I care what his golfing preferences are?

[Tim Bert]

I think the bigger question to me is why should we care which courses intellectuals prefer.

If one is a rocket scientist, I'd be interested on his opinions about rockets, but why should I care what his golfing preferences are?

Isn't Pieracci a rocket scientist?  Maybe we should ask him.  Why would you care less about a rocket scientist's opinion than anoyone else not in the golf design profession? 

I think a better question might be "do we have any reason to believe that intellectuals have a different view on golf courses than any other cross-section of the general golfing public?"  The answer could very well be "no" in which case this seems like a fruitless pursuit.  If, however, there is a discernable difference in their taste from the general population, then this question is no less worthy than a hundred other threads found here. 

The other basic question is how do you define intellectual?  I wouldn't think that all rocket scientists need be intellectuals. 

[Mike Hendren]

At this point a thread suicide seems to be in order.

[Kalen Braley]

Tim,

You pretty much hit right on the point that I should have finished. I don't really care about which mouth the opinion comes out of, be it PhD or high school drop out.  If its a good one I'll go with it. 

As for who is and isn't an intellectual?  This is the question because its so vague.  While the dictionary definition was pretty worthless, it did offer this bit:
given to study, reflection, and speculation

Based on that, almost any of us on this site who has done this in terms of golf course architecture would have to qualify.  I tire of opinions being good or bad based on who says them and what label is attached to them.  Why should one assume that a person who is considered an "intellectual" can come up with a valid conclusion just because they are labeld as such?

[Peter Pallotta]

At this point a thread suicide seems to be in order.

Micheal - before you pull the plug, let me give you one more reason to. I think intellectuals prefer Marilyn Monroe.

Of course, Barney likely believes that intellectuals just want to feel superior (he's one himself, but hates the fact and so does everything possible to hide it).  He figures that intellectuals praise and prefer hidden gems (no one else knows about them) and very subtle designs (only they can see the strategy there)...and courses by designers that are just the right kind of famous, i.e. not amongst casual golfers.

I think he's probably right on all counts. But the intellectuals' preferences seem sound enough to me.

Peter

[Bob_Huntley]

which golf courses and why?
which architects and why?

FWIW, Barney gets credit for this thread based upon a recent IM.

Michael,

On closer examination, I have found that with many self-proclaimed intellectuals,  that if they had twice as many brain cells they might well be considered half-wits.

Bob

[Brent Hutto]

I've never been accused of being an intellectual but one time in undergraduate school I made some comment or another that caused a professor to offer this nugget of insight...

"My god, you're some kind of philosopher. No wonder you're flunking my electromagnetic fields class. Philosophers make terrible engineers".

Don't know if the same applies to golf.

[Jim Nugent]

Have any good or great golf course architects been intellectuals?

Any pro golfers?

[John Kavanaugh]

Have any good or great golf course architects been intellectuals?

Any pro golfers?

I don't think there is any doubt that Ben Crenshaw is a golf intellectual.  I think the IM that I sent Hendren had something to do with my observation that Coore and Crenshaw courses appeal to the intellectual crowd more than to the paying public.  When compared to other less aclaimed local courses their design style tends to retard profits or land sales.  I only use Cuscowilla and Bandon Trails as examples as they are the only Coore and Crenshaw courses that I recall playing.  Bandon Trails tee sheet is always open and Cuscowilla land sales have been stagnant when in comparison to other local models.  Forgot...I have also played The Warren course...hmmm.

[RJ_Daley]

From what I've read (how would I actually know?)  Des Muirhead had some intellectual qualities of a diverse mind and well studied background.  

Though not a pro, I would think Bobby Jones would come to anyone's mind when considering highly intelligent if not intellectual characteristics.  

Does anyone think Behr was intellectual?  

[John Kavanaugh]

Have any good or great golf course architects been intellectuals?

Any pro golfers?

Doak went to MIT before transfering to Cornell. Most architects wear their hair longer than the norm because they think it makes them look smarter.  Forrest Richardson excluded...he looks smart anyway.

[George Pazin]

When compared to other less aclaimed local courses their design style tends to retard profits or land sales.  I only use Cuscowilla and Bandon Trails as examples as they are the only Coore and Crenshaw courses that I recall playing.  Bandon Trails tee sheet is always open and Cuscowilla land sales have been stagnant when in comparison to other local models.  Forgot...I have also played The Warren course...hmmm.

Not exactly what anyone would call a fair sample for drawing sound judgments.

[Adam Clayman]

Peter, Further evidence John is one, he's never mowed a lawn.

The smartest guy is the one who knows he knows nothing. Evidenced by Pat Mucci always asking those questions. 

[Peter Pallotta]

Peter, Further evidence John is one, he's never mowed a lawn.

The smartest guy is the one who knows he knows nothing. Evidenced by Pat Mucci always asking those questions. 

Ha! He sure let the cat out of the bag on that one, didn't he Adam?
So does Patrick, when, immediately after asking his question he starts correcting everyone else's answers! 

Peter

Cuscowilla. The golf course that 4 out of 5 intellectuals recommend.

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