"National is a goat track..."

[Jim Franklin]

So I was confronted by another member of my club the other day telling me how much he hated NGLA and that it was the biggest disappointment he has played. I tell him it was my second favorite course and I get this back..."I have lost all respect for your opinion concerning golf courses..."

I told him I loved the variety, the options you could play, the blind shots, how the course fits so perfectly with the terrain, etc... He comes back with, "You can hit the ball anywhere, I drove it over 1 and 2 blah blah blah, there is no strategy and it is in horrible shape".

For those that have played NGLA, am I  missing something?

[Lester George]

Jim,

You can lead a horse to water.......

Lester

[Jim Franklin]

Trust me, that was my first thought.

[John Mayhugh]

I've never been fortunate enough to play NGLA.  But I'll go out on a limb and say your fellow member is not someone I would rely on for course recommendations.

[Philippe Binette]

NGLA is a goat track... so was every links to start with...

but it's one hell of a goat track.




I'm surprised to hear that it was not in great conditions (but beauty is in the eye of the beholder)

Although Bobby Jones thougth the same of the Old Course when he first played it

[Jim Nugent]

Jim, what courses does your member think are real good? 

[TEPaul]

"For those that have played NGLA, am I  missing something?"


JimF:

Not really other than the fact that the "Big World" theory definitely exists and is very much alive and well. Don't worry about that guy's opinion of NGLA as there are plenty of courses out there he will admire and they are all probably dramatically different than NGLA. The world of art and application in golf course architecture would not be half so interesting if there were not a pretty good slice of observers out there with really bad taste, you know?!   

[Michael Moore]

Jim -

Thank you for posting thread which is true to the mission of "frank commentary on golf course architecture". We have seen that the anonymous third party is often the only way to introduce a controversial topic.  Although I disagree with the conclusions presented, it is vital that we consider the possibility of the National Links being more suited for goats than golf.

What are you missing? I hope that you are not missing the generosity of spirit to allow your colleague to hold what seems to be an informed opinion, and I applaud you for remaining civil as he butchered a sacred cow.

[TEPaul]

About NGLA's "condition" that perhaps is a bit concerning. I hope something hasn't gone wrong with some of its grass. The best one to ask on here would probably be Pat as he was out there for the National Singles Tournament less than two weeks ago. I hope the course didn't get over-stressed and suffered bigtime due to that. It's certainly possible.

[Jim Franklin]

Jim, what courses does your member think are real good? 

He likes Oakmont, Cypress Point, Pine Valley, and Shinnecock. He hated NGLA and The Kingsley Club (which I also loved). I don't think he liked Crystal Downs either. And San Francisco GC is in his top 5 as well.

EDIT: He did not like Augusta National either.

[Jim Franklin]

About NGLA's "condition" that perhaps is a bit concerning. I hope something hasn't gone wrong with some of its grass. The best one to ask on here would probably be Pat as he was out there for the National Singles Tournament less than two weeks ago. I hope the course didn't get over-stressed and suffered bigtime due to that. It's certainly possible.

Wasn't it Tom Doak that said the best thing that could happen to NGLA was a drought or depression to brown the course out a bit? I am afraid too many people, my friend included, that equate green with good condition.

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

There is no definitive guide to the reasoning certain people will apply to courses.

Some are very much geared towards how the course fits their game -- or their eye or whatever other subjective criteria they apply.

Given the listing of courses he favors it's hard to understand why he would feel so harshly on the others -- I would need to see more details beyond the quick throw away line that NGLA is a "goat track."

Thanks ...

[Jim Franklin]

Jim:

There is no definitive guide to the reasoning certain people will apply to courses.

Some are very much geared towards how the course fits their game -- or their eye or whatever other subjective criteria they apply.

Given the listing of courses he favors it's hard to understand why he would feel so harshly on the others -- I would need to see more details beyond the quick throw away line that NGLA is a "goat track."

Thanks ...

He thought he could hit the ball anywhere and score. He did not like the fact he hit it over the green on 1 and 2. He bombs the ball so I am sure he shot a ton too.

[TEPaul]

"He likes Oakmont, Cypress Point, Pine Valley, and Shinnecock. He hated NGLA and The Kingsley Club (which I also loved). I don't think he liked Crystal Downs either. And San Francisco GC is in his top 5 as well."


Jim Franklin:

No shit? That buddy of yours apparently has a pretty complex mind on architecture. Here's my suggestion to you----do not challenge him and piss him off over what he said about NGLA, just ask him if he would agree to donate his brain to SCIENCE for study. We will try to eventually include his brain in a glass container and the scientific analysis of it in the new USGA Architecture Archive!  

[Jim Franklin]

"He likes Oakmont, Cypress Point, Pine Valley, and Shinnecock. He hated NGLA and The Kingsley Club (which I also loved). I don't think he liked Crystal Downs either. And San Francisco GC is in his top 5 as well."


Jim Franklin:

No shit? That buddy of yours apparently has a pretty complex mind on architecture. Here's my suggestion to you----do not challenge him and piss him off over what he said about NGLA, just ask him if he would agree to donate his brain to SCIENCE for study. We will try to eventually include his brain in a glass container and the scientific analysis of it in the new USGA Architecture Archive!  

I will suggest it, but I don't think there is much there .

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

If he believes he can hit the ball anywhere and still score -- then what did he actually score and how does that compare to what he shot elsewhere.

Since he didn't like Kingsley too I'd like to know more about his reasoning there as well.

Without some real consistent reasoning what I think you have is nothing more than seat of the pants proclamations.

[TEPaul]

Jim Franklin:


Could you also find out if your friend has any close family ties to Merion G.C. or Philadelphia? He may just have some genes in him that have been altered by the century long "Philadelphia Syndrome" whose major raison d'etre is to hate and minimize all things to do with Charles Blutarsky Macdonald.

[Jerry Kluger]

Jim: What many of us fail to accept is the fact that we often judge the quality of a course by how well we played it.  We may try to be objective in our opinion but the fact is that if we play a course and we are not driving the ball well and have to play from bad lies and bad angles, then we are going to have a hard time praising the course.  I don't care how focused you are about the architecture but if you play Shinnecock and are constantly playing out of the tall grasses you are just going to have a heck of a time raving about it. 

NGLA is great to me because of the fun factor and the variety of holes. It's not the most difficult course I've ever played nor does it offer the most eye candy .  It presents a different type of challenge on every hole and many options as to how to play the hole.  Some people will say something negative simply because they believe they have the background to be credible when making such a statement.  Your friend believes that he can credibly make the statement because he has played many other great courses and in his opinion they are outstanding.  So because his opinion is that some other courses are great, then he believes he can be credible when making a negative statement about NGLA.  The way to shoot him down is for him to explain the basis of his opinion that certain courses are outstanding and then explain what he feels is lacking about NGLA.  Odds are that he will be unable to substantiate his opinion about the courses he likes and at the same time, he will be unable to objectively state what he disliked about NGLA.   

[C. Squier]

There are plenty of people around Chicago that say similar things about Shoreacres.....too short, too this, not enough that.  I'd love to sit down and discuss courses with your friend, even though I've never played many that he has.....I think you learn a lot more from honest debates then you do when everyone is nodding their heads in unison. 

CPS

[John Kavanaugh]

Jim,

Has your buddy played Yale?  In the last thousand days how many has Yale not been a goat track?...10 or so.

[Patrick_Mucci]

10 days ago the conditions at NGLA were terrific despite the greens being a little on the slow side, as they were at Westhampton.

Sometimes golfers dislike a course because:

They didn't score well
They didn't understand how to play it
It's not their preference
They didn't like the conditions
It doesn't suit their game.

There are horses/golfers for courses, or is it courses for horses/golfers.

Kelly Blake Moran,

Now you can stop worrying and sleep well.

[Tom_Doak]

I can't believe anyone is shocked by this perspective.  In the 1970's National wasn't in GOLF DIGEST's top 100 precisely because of this fellow's line of thinking ... and let's just say that while I was around Sebonack I heard similar comments about National from some very fine golfers.

It's entirely possible for a good player to go out on National for the first time, have no wind, shoot a relatively low number and think that he would have had a REALLY low number if it wasn't for a couple of unlucky, unfair bounces.  It is only after 5 or more plays that some people realize that's the genius of it.

[Jim Franklin]

Jim,

Has your buddy played Yale?  In the last thousand days how many has Yale not been a goat track?...10 or so.

I do not think he has played Yale, but will ask.

[Rich Goodale]

Jim

Maybe your friend is right and most of the rest of us are encumbered by Groupthink.  Just comsider the Emperor and his new clothes.  I've only played NGLA once, and I consider it to be great fun but just very good golf.  If it were miraculously transported across the pond, it would have difficulty making the top 20 in Great Britain and Ireland.  And, just to back that completely personal opinion up, here are the courses over here that I think are definitely "better" in alphabetical order:

Ballybunion
Birkdale
County Down
Carnoustie
Deal
Dornoch
Hoylake
Lahinch
Lytham
Muirfield
Portmarnock
Portrush
Rye
Sandwich
Turnberry
Troon
Western Gailes

...and I'm sure I left a few out....

Rich

[Tom Huckaby]

I too only played the course once, with Rich Goodale. 

I have certainly read and heard a lot more about it, via this website primarily.

And whereas my first reaction was along the lines that Jim's friend is nuts, well....

Rich's words do resonate with me.  The course is great fun without a doubt.  I just wonder also how great it is when putting it in context against the UK/Ireland greats Rich lists.  Just how does NGLA stack up against those, not to mention the other many US greats?

I had always considered it in my all-time top 3... but this does give me pause.  I really do believe the course can be overpowered, and as such does that take away from its greatness to some extent?

BUT... Tom Doak's words are powerful also.  How much of this is due to seeing it only the one time?  How much does this type of thinking miss some of the genius to which Tom Doak refers?

Hmmmmmm....

Thus while I do believe that groupthink here is a powerful thing, and the Emperor does get new clothes far too often here, well....

I'm coming out closer to Doak still than to Rich.  I do believe NGLA has a greatness that simply can't be dismissed too easily.

That being said, thinking about this in a cold light of today,  I would put it behind a few of the courses Rich lists - just not ALL of those.  For me, the ones I'd say are superior to NGLA are only County Down, Dornoch, maybe Muirfield, maybe Ballybunion.  Troon DEFINITELY does not belong on this list.  But the others are arguable.

So great NGLA does remain, to me.

I am thinking of it in a different light, however.

TH