[John Kavanaugh]

Speaking of boors on munis - I remember almost fainting the first time I played Heron Lakes in Portland, Oregon.  On the second tee, the three guys I was paired with all took their shirts off and stayed that way till they got back to the 9th green.  Apparently, male shirtless golf is common on NW USA munis.

Ughh....

How exactly did that hurt anyone?  The last thing that got me upset was when I had a father son playing behind me and the son rode in a cart driven by his mother while the father walked.  The son was a fine little golfer and would hit accurate enough drives so he would wait on us in the fairway as his dad walked up to his ball.  We couldn't figure out how to let them play through because we were always done on the green by the time his dad got to his ball.  The damn kid and his mom got so annoying that we finally went back and agreed to let them go through if the dad would ride one hole so they could get in front of us.  Golf does not flow unless everyone in a group either walks or everyone rides.  Nothing pisses me off more than the purist (cheapskate) who insists on walking when the three other guys are in carts.

[Gary Daughters]

Jerry,

Sorry you had a lousy experience.  Since confining my play to weekdays I've noticed much less of that stuff you describe.  Playing early or late also helps.  Picking the right course, too.  

[John Kavanaugh]

Some weeks ago I was advised by many on this site that there is no collective responsibility for anything let alone this site. I don’t totally accept that, because we are or should be responsible for our actions.

I have and will continue to make errors, but I will always try and support those in need and assist as and when possible those who ask or I see require some encouragement (and I would happily include David Moriarty within that comment).

The one thing that I was taught when I started golf was the requirement to conduct myself in accordance to the customs and rules of the Game. To enjoy the game I needed to accept Golf etiquette. Nothing strange or mad about that, to me it guaranteed a standard missing from most other sports. My father explained it more simply its respect for other golfers and yourself. The basic fundamentals of trust, courtesy and self respect.

Regrettable for whatever reason these basic requirements are no longer taught at many golf course and they have been allowed to erode. We tolerate drunks mainly on carts and reading Jerry’s post much more as well. Course etiquette is no longer considered important by the Public & some private clubs (money sometimes talks), perhaps trying to squeeze more money out of the slowly reducing numbers,

Jerry’s post is actually very important for the future of Golf. More family involvements in clubs are or should be the order of the day. How can we persuade more members or people to take up golf if we allow this type of intimidation to take place. Crude, drunken and loutish behaviour should be
addressed immediately and a clear message sent out that this club or Course will not accept this type of behaviour from anyone. Some form of collective responsibility would not go amiss or are we now a society that turns the other way or walks across the road when someone is mugged or assaulted, using the excuse that I’m not involved, its not my fault or I had nothing to do with it.

Are we going to show more compassion towards trees that are vandalised or birds that are repeated hit by a golfer? Or are we going to protest in numbers to those in charge to take some firm action, starting with some simple signage and the consequences of ignoring the rules.

But then do we really want be bothered, do we love our wives and children enough to want them protected, is a little bit of collective responsibility the first part towards an answer – well who knows – that’s a question we each have to ask ourselves, but well done Jerry, thanks for re-raising that very important debate again.

Golf is in too much trouble to wait 23 years for some 12 year old to pony up and join a private club.  

[John Kavanaugh]

I think you guys who love to study more than gamble need to pack up your cameras and take up bird watching.  Of course it makes more sense to pack a lid than a six pack if this is your hobby of choice.

[Carl Rogers]

Lawrence, I wouldn't blame Tiger for making the game manistream...

I just think that the game and the authorities were not ready for the game to be mainstream... after all the game is mainstream in scotland for 100 years or more.

It's like the slow play problem, people are suggesting 14 holes golf courses, bigger cups etc... the thruth is that the authorities and the clubs don't take their responsibilities.

Make the starter the boss, who decides which tee you're playing
Make the marshall a full authority.
Be ready to kick out people out of the course and give their money back.
After all the fun of 1 group playing in five hours is not more important than the fun of everybody behind.

If one course decide to guarantee 4h00 rounds by being strict, it might offend some people, but people will be waiting at the gate and the course would be full

I agree with this post and add the following:
- make tee times 15 minutes a part (even if the green fees go up)
- make steeper green fees discounts in off hours (I play a lot of 5 hour plus rounds, that when I drive out of the parking lot, the course is empty)

[John Kavanaugh]

Golf is played outside at most times 300 yds from the nearest individual.  If you can't be drunk and loutish there then where can you be?

[Steve Kline]

Speaking of boors on munis - I remember almost fainting the first time I played Heron Lakes in Portland, Oregon.  On the second tee, the three guys I was paired with all took their shirts off and stayed that way till they got back to the 9th green.  Apparently, male shirtless golf is common on NW USA munis.

Ughh....

How exactly did that hurt anyone?  The last thing that got me upset was when I had a father son playing behind me and the son rode in a cart driven by his mother while the father walked.  The son was a fine little golfer and would hit accurate enough drives so he would wait on us in the fairway as his dad walked up to his ball.  We couldn't figure out how to let them play through because we were always done on the green by the time his dad got to his ball.  The damn kid and his mom got so annoying that we finally went back and agreed to let them go through if the dad would ride one hole so they could get in front of us.  Golf does not flow unless everyone in a group either walks or everyone rides.  Nothing pisses me off more than the purist (cheapskate) who insists on walking when the three other guys are in carts.

So it's okay for the drunk guy or whoever else to do what they want but the cheapskate can't walk if he wants to? You seem to be in favor of letting people do what they want. So, if people want to walk they can walk and if they want to ride let them ride. Your answer to others has been get over it.

[John Burzynski]

When I was young (I am 40 now), we as kids still 'lived in fear' of the rangers at the local courses (we played exclusively municipal courses).  By lived in fear I mean that if we got out of line, dragged our feet too much, banged clubheads into the greens, or generally behaved in a non-golfing manner, we would have been reprimanded or booted fromt he course for a period of time.

I am not sure that any daily play course is any longer willing to police kids, let alone adults, for boorish or damaging on course behavior.    Nobody wants to piss off any paying patrons, and nowdays getting after a kid who is misbehaving on a course usually results in the parent showing up later and getting in your face asking you why you are damaging little Johnnie's self esteem.  

Time seem to have changed.  I have fewer problems with jeans on the course or even beer, as long as the patrons are willing to behave themselves, observe the etiquette and rules of the game, and keep even a fairly good pace of play.

[John Kavanaugh]

Steve,

You are correct that I believe everyone should be able to do whatever they choose as long as it does not affect others.  When one guy in a group decided to walk while the other ride he disrupts their round.  When only two guys in an entire member/guest walk they disrupt the entire tournament.

Where's my cake?

[Melvyn Morrow]

“Golf is in too much trouble to wait 23 years for some 12 year old to pony up and join a private club”. 

“I think you guys who love to study more than gamble need to pack up your cameras and take up bird watching.  Of course it makes more sense to pack a lid than a six pack if this is your hobby of choice”

“Golf is played outside at most times 300 yds from the nearest individual.  If you can't be drunk and loutish there then where can you be?”


I have collated these statements from John Kavanaugh and have them sent to Oxford University to the Department of American Studies for translations.

So far I have the following responses:-

1) Enlightened words as prolific as Einstein on his specialist subject of the blow up doll

2) I feel humbled and honoured to read such words of pure fiction based upon 100% of destorted fiction.

And from the Head of Studies (of Bullshit)

3) The emptiness of the mind that was able to produce this effluent of sentences must be compared with that, of not just our solar system, but the vastness of Space itself. A Black Hole on Earth, no less.


In other words, no one again seems to understand you John, but don’t worry the same, I expect applies to me.

[Brent Hutto]

I've heard similar mumbled complaints around my club every time there's a tournament. There's always two or three misfits who insist on walking when the rest of the field is in carts and so of course they get blamed for ruining the day for everyone. Of course that can only happen in the two tournaments per year that members are allowed to walk. In the rest of the events carts are required. I don't know who they blame for their five-hour rounds when walkers are disallowed but twice a year they get to blame the pace of the handful of poor saps who are playing the game in their usual, accustomed manner.

Some of the same complainers like to gripe at me for being a bad sport and not signing up for the no-walking tournaments. I've quit even pointing out that I would love to play if they would allow me to do so. It only creates hard feelings so I just let them vent as they like. Me and my antisocial buddies just plod our way twice around the alternate nine on tournament days and make do with a friendly wager during our 3-hour round.

[Dan_Callahan]

I played at Atkinson, a resort course in NH, on Saturday. We were told by the starter that in recent years, five-hour-plus rounds had frustrated their regulars and driven away repeat business. As a result, they give a very stern (but friendly) explanation about pace of play expectations before you tee off. The scorecard notes where your should be on the course based on your tee time. You are told that if you fall behind on the clock, you will warned by the ranger and told to pick up to catch the group in front of you.

We were a threesome, and we waited on most shots during the day, but never more than a minute or two. The group ahead of us were clearly beginners who would swing and miss pretty regularly. The ranger stayed on them to keep things moving, and sure enough we finished 9 minutes ahead of the target. It was way better than I ever expected, playing on a Saturday afternoon at a popular course on the 4th of July weekend. So it can be done, and I didn't hear anyone complaining.

[RJ_Daley]

I agree with John Burzynski.  Enforce the rules!  If there are louts on the golf course, it is a reflection on the management/ownership, and that should become a consumer choice to patronize that course, or not.

I am very proud of our county municipal golf course and all aspects of it from proper conditioning, to well managed jr. programs, men's and women's leagues, to player awareness of rules and respect.   Yes, there are the occasional louts that aren't from the area, usually.   When they get out of line, WE tell them so, if the ranger isn't on the ball, or absent.  That includes falling behind, or course abuse.  

This business of one walking, and the rest riding is pure B.S.   I'll concede that the issue can be a bit problematical based on the design and flow of that particular course.  Some courses have choke points, and groups tend to pile up at certain tees.   But, if everyone is in a cart, and the group in front are walking, and perhaps aren't the best and most efficient of golfers, despite their trying to keep up, they might delay to a slight degree the all cartballers behind.  As long as they are keeping up with the group ahead of them, or reasonably playing holes efficiently, then no bitching.  Or, the ranger needs to gently remind them, or keep prodding them, if they are really dilly dallying.  

But, the most effective way that any course management can keep order is SIGNAGE,  IMHO.   And plenty of it.  When new players come to a course, (particularly a muni) they often have resident and non-res fees.  Either way, the desk should ask if they don't recognise them, or just have a one sheet copy of the most egregious of rules and etiquette that are often broken by the hackers and first infrequent golfers, and louts.  A list of about 10 rules that will not be tolerated to be broken should be spelled out, and a red print warning that violation of things like course abuse, customer rudeness to others, will result in them being asked to leave the premisis by the ranger, and if that doesn't suffice, law enforcement will be called and they will be subject to ejection or arrest!  After all, it is a muni, and what why not use the local paid constabulary if louts abuse the ranger?

Signage along the way is also important.  After about 3-6 holes, a sign saying something to the effect "please keep up with the group ahead"  or "you should be at this point in X minutes or hour" or, "if you are having trouble keeping up, please play ready golf"  and periodic etiquette reminders, "please fix ball marks and replace divots".  

We have a locally owned mom and pop course.  The owner there doesn't seem to get it, and never seemed to care.  He lets all sorts of goofs play at his course without admonishing drunk, rude behavior.  He just wants to ring the cash register.  Thus, he gets the lout crowd.  Everyone knows it.  There has to be a skid row in every town.  Same with golf I guess.  

But, muni's belong to the people, and should have rules and enforcement just like the streets in your neighborhood.  Know the rules, enforce the rules.  

[Philippe Binette]

Carl...

don't make tee times every 15 minutes.... that's the opposite of what I'm saying.

every 8 minutes works... do what it is sadly impossible to do in our world now... MAKE PEOPLE RESPONSIBLE OF THEIR ACTIONS

If you get asked a couple of times to speed up... speed up, if you get dumped off the course because it took you 2h40 to play the font nine... IT'S YOUR FAULT, figure it out

[John Kavanaugh]

RJ,

I'm kind of curious what you think should be put on etiquette signs.  What do you think of whooping after a great shot?  I have a friend that is a drunken lout by GCA standards that loves to do the Nature Boy Rick Flair whoop and strut after a shot outside the scope of average.  Should he be called in or reprimanded by management?

[Joe Hancock]

Carl...

don't make tee times every 15 minutes.... that's the opposite of what I'm saying.

every 8 minutes works... do what it is sadly impossible to do in our world now... MAKE PEOPLE RESPONSIBLE OF THEIR ACTIONS

If you get asked a couple of times to speed up... speed up, if you get dumped off the course because it took you 2h40 to play the font nine... IT'S YOUR FAULT, figure it out

Phllippe,

You may have hit on exactly why the premise of the thread is correct: there isn't enough people in the world who take responsibility for their actions to keep the existing golf courses solvent.

I've seen it from behind the golf shop counter....a guy walks up with his young son, pays for 2 green fees and a power cart...is told the child is not allowed to drive, the child clearly hearing the instructions. The second hole out, guess who is behind the wheel? The child.....this kind of behavior is the norm, not the exception.

Joe

[Adam Clayman]

RJ, You'll love this one... Must be the fourth of July that brings out the mooks (is that offensive to someone?) At West Winds yesterday, a young girl, whose parents have asked if I would teach their daughter, showed up with four others. She asked if she could charge her friends rounds to her mother's account. The las behind the counter is relatively new and agreed. The five some went out on two carts bypassing the first and second to jump ahead to the third tee where there was an opening. The fifth (boy) was bouncing on the back of the cart like a monkey hanging onto the rails that hold the canopy. Not one of these five were golfers. They proceeded to hack it up for half a hole before Corey was called. He actually went out there and kicked them off the course. The incredulity during the after stories was apparent in his look.

The myths surrounding the speed of golfers, in or out of a cart, are becoming epic and pervasive. Carts do not speed up play unless the rider is well versed in proper procedure. Walkers who do not know how to play efficiently, can be just as bad as clueless carters. But surely walkers, as a rule,  DO NOT play slower than riders.


JK, How about a guy who does the Tiger fist pump when golfing alone?

[John Kavanaugh]

Adam,

I promise you that you and I as a twosome will play 18 holes on an empty course faster than if we walked.  We are a pretty common demographic set so I do not understand your logic that walking is just as fast.

I also do not think it is reasonable to expect someone who has a boss up their ass all week to act like the boss on the weekends.

[RJ_Daley]

How about a guy who does the Tiger fist pump when golfing alone?

I'd watch that guy.  He probably is doing that fist pump alone alot and going blind in the process!  

JK, the whooper is generally tolerated, though often causes cringing amongst the regulars.  Case in point...  

I think it was two fall seasons ago, the Packers played the Redskins here.  I think it was a night game.  In the morning, a contingient of about two or three foursomes of Redskin fans shows up to play a round before the game.  These guys were like fish out of water for our Green Bay culture - laid back muni.  These guys had to be f*^$king Washington lobbiests.  One shows up in a Payne Stewart plus fours and argyle all Redskins colors ensemble.    They were all on the putting green when I arrived with friends for our regular weekend game.  They all had a big fat turd stuck in their gobs, all in carts, and whooping at making putts on the freakin putting green!!!  As the day went on, apparently at every made 4 footer, there were whoops going up heard around the course.  

They were tolerated as they were foreigners, but most everyone of our regulars at the 19th hole was commenting why they imagine Washington must be such a horseshit place to live and socialize, if that mentality is the norm.  I'm not that big of a Packer fan, but I was sure glad they beat those guys that day...

[John Kavanaugh]

RJ,

This is why I believe that a golf course is the last bastion of acceptable hate.  I just hope the guy who started this thread didn't tell his son that those people are not our kind, come Monday I'm quitting this place. 

[Tim Pitner]

I can't think of too many munis (or any public-access courses) where playing on Sunday at 1:00 pm in July would offer a great experience.  It's too bad, but on weekends, you have to play early morning or late afternoon and I prefer to play in the spring and fall when numbers are down rather than in the middle of summer when golf comes to the forefront of people's minds. 

Without launching into a "carts are evil" diatribe, I have to say that carts seem to enable excessive drinking and loutish behavior.  I read an interview recently with a long-time pro at Cherry Hills who said that, in addition to Arnold Palmer, it was the advent of carts that popularized the game.  Since I'm not in the golf industry, I'm inclined to agree with those that say the growth of the game, whether it's because of carts or Tiger Woods, isn't necessarily a good thing.  I'd rather see fewer people on the course and fewer people who have no idea what they're doing on the course.  Make people walk and that would happen. 

[Melvyn Morrow]

JK

“This is why I believe that a golf course is the last bastion of acceptable hate”. 

No, I don’t think that is correct, I believe it may be much closer to home, perhaps within your own mind. Constant pushing and probing, is the intention to cause offence or just a warped sense of humour?


Tim

It may be true in America, but I would not think so in the UK, I would have said it was TV, although we do tend to copy the USA. Carts will in the end change golf and just reading this post certainly not for the better - but that I will leave for another day.

[Glenn Spencer]

Lawrence, I wouldn't blame Tiger for making the game manistream...

I just think that the game and the authorities were not ready for the game to be mainstream... after all the game is mainstream in scotland for 100 years or more.

It's like the slow play problem, people are suggesting 14 holes golf courses, bigger cups etc... the thruth is that the authorities and the clubs don't take their responsibilities.

Make the starter the boss, who decides which tee you're playing
Make the marshall a full authority.
Be ready to kick out people out of the course and give their money back.
After all the fun of 1 group playing in five hours is not more important than the fun of everybody behind.

If one course decide to guarantee 4h00 rounds by being strict, it might offend some people, but people will be waiting at the gate and the course would be full

WRONG!! You can't make the starter tell you what tees you are playing. It would be akin to telling someone how they want their hamburger cooked at a restaurant. Plus, most starters stereotype people.

 I met a girl a little while ago and she said that she would like to play golf for our first date," I said fine and we played a course that she knows near her house. The tee is all screwed up with twosomes and onesomes. I ask a guy if he would like to join us. It is quarter of five on a Sunday. He joins us and my tee was already in the ground on the back tee of the 471- yard par 4 or 5, I don't know. The group in front is in the fairway for about 10 minutes doing whatever. They are at least 20 yards closer to the tee than the 200-yard marker from the green.

There are about 3 carts waiting for me to hit and the starter walks up and says from about 20 feet away, "You are up"  I say, "Thanks pal, I know." He says, "Why aren't you hitting?" I say, "because there are people in the fairway." He says, "Go ahead and hit" I say, "Don't worry, I will when it is time."

So, here we have a starter wanting to me to put a ball up someone's ass in the first fairway. This is who you want to have the power? The people were 220 out, I had 174 for my second shot. Starters usually think they know everything because they see people hack. He can't make that scene on the first tee. I look like an idiot in front of this girl and all I was trying to do was not hit into somebody. You think I want to go back and play that course again?

[Cabell Ackerly]

Take away golf carts, and 99% of this stuff disappears.

Someone remind me why I should want more people to take up the game?

[Joe Bausch]

JK, How about a guy who does the Tiger fist pump when golfing alone?

Years ago as a kid playing Oak Meadow in southern Indiana I got off the course on a hot summer day and was in the pro shop talking to the assistant when this one fellow, Fred Levine, decided to be a mad dog and go out and play.  He was my age then, about 13.  On the first hole he hit three pretty good shots for a youngster to get to the fringe on this par 4 hole.  The assistant pro was watching him through binoculars.  Fred made about a 50 foot snaking putt for par.  Nobody else is even on the course it is so stinkin' hot.  Fred reacts with joy, putting his arms straight up in the air and walking completely around the green to celebrate.  Real life stories are so wonderful!

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