[noonan]

There is no etiquette left in the game at muni's.

The public courses are also staffed with morons.

My 12 year old and I headed out to the muni we belong to.

There are 3 courses..... a par 3 and 2 full size courses.

We chose the least busy of the big courses....it happened to be the biggest course.

He tees up from the red tees or the fairway on the par 5's and longest par 4's.

We always play in under 4 hours if we do not have to wait.

A avid friend golfer was riding and my son was riding with him.

On the 1st tee we were confronted by the starter about my son playing the big course. It was 1pm and the 6 cartballers behind us were concerned about pace of play.

The ignorant ranger completely ignored the 2 blue hairs that teed off in front of us playing the 6750 yard white tees. The old timers barely made it to the fairway on the 1st hole and completely ignored the yellow senior tees.

Needless to say we waited every shot following the old guys.

The cartballers behind us hit into us on 7 fairway. Upon my walking back up the fairway they got the point they should not hit into us. I asked them if they had noticed that we were waiting on every hole on the group in front of us. I told tham if they hot an errant shot that hit us it would not be a big deal. However if they hit us on the same hole we would have some problems.

Before being hit into on 7.....a group of the locals decided they would be teeing off on 8. Cross country golf his a hobby amongst the local drunks on weekend afternoons. This is not the 1st time these idiots hopped in front of us. This time they slid in front of the group in front of us. In doing this, the group in front of us had to wait on the cc golfers on 8 green.

After the completion of the round I confronted the desk help inside. I told him he allowed this to happen because he knew these idiots keep the carts all day. He said he has complained about the problem to no resolution.

Tomorrow, I will be calling the pro and the director of golf and requesting a refund of my membership. This course cannot figure out why play is down 50% from 10 years ago.

If you are not affluent enough to belong to a club, this is what you are faced with at muni's these days.

[Forrest Richardson]

Some people simply don't know how to act. I used to get frustrated and angry at people who are clueless on the course — now, I try to solve the puzzle by figuring out creative methods to get them to react better — and change behavior.

For example, behind a twosome who failed to set the flagstick properly after four consecutive holes, I waved ahead on the fourth occasion and went up to begin a conversation. I introduced myself and my daughter, beginning that I had a feeling they were beginners (they were). I said that I was in the golf business, and that one of my responsibilities was to help teach new golfers about rules and proper procedure on the course. I asked if they would mind if I gave them some pointers. They said Ok and I told them about why it was important to replace the flagstick all the way into the cup.

I could have been punched out, but I wasn't. It really all centers around how you approach people.

I am not saying your situation could have been avoided, or made better. But we all need to realize that today people want to learn quick and they have no time for lessons or protocol classes. We need to handle that, and it is very tough indeed.

[TEPaul]

JerryK:

What you and your son need to do is work on your "low traj one-hop" shot that nails some of those CC guys who cut in front of you. Didn't you know that golf is basically an organized recreational manifestation of war and combat?

[Lawrence Largent]

You have to remember these are all the great people that Tiger has brought into this great game.  I for one feel that Tiger has hurt the true spirit by making it mainstream.  You have all these people who care nothing about the traditions or etiquette of this grand ole game.

[TEPaul]

LawrenceL:

Come on pal, give the people a break. Don't realize when some kid is rude and guilty of bad etiquette it really ain't his fault----it's his mother's fault or more likely his grandmother's fault?!

[noonan]

The cross country drunks think they are entitled to play golf as they wish.

They are members of the mens association.

The group behind us who was complaining to the starter about my kid was a hole behind us when we finished.

Who do you educate?

Muni's have too many people present to educate even a handful.

No one cares.....the staff......the golfers.......the men's assoc...........

[John Kavanaugh]

Jerry,

How much did they charge you for your kid to ride with your friend?

[Craig Sweet]

Hell, I have a buddy who is a member at a private club and he says this sort of stuff happens a lot on his course...basically, some people are idiots, or they think their poop doesn't stink and they can do as they please...

[John Kavanaugh]

None of this would have happened if Jerry had ponied up a rented a cart himself.  If I ran a muni I would stipulate that minors only ride with parents or guardians.  We are talking about 1 pm on Sunday on the 4th of July weekend.  This exact thing happened to me today when my son and I went to a semi-private course where I am a member.  It was too crowded so we putted for an hour and decided to come back later this evening when things were slower.  On weekends adults do have priority over children...It is common sense.

[John_Conley]

I'm sorry you had a bad day at the course.  Rather than speak to your point specifically, I want to mention that the topic hits dead-on with a thought I've been having for a few weeks.

For all the talk about 'growing the game', I have to ask, "why?"  I live near a daily-fee that opened about 15 years ago.  The intention was for it to be an above average course in the market.  What we're seeing, and granted Orlando is one of the most overbuilt markets, is that no matter what you wanted the course to be the market is driving down rates.  As rates get hammered so do conditions.

I didn't play much at all for nearly a year-and-a-half, but began playing again in earnest two months ago.  I can't complain about rate - anywhere - but it is mind boggling to me that people don't rake.  At all.  The business of owning a course is just awful, but the 'solution' of finding more players only exacerbates the non-golfer problem.

[John Moore II]

John--I'm not sure I agree with you about growing the game. You have to do something, close some courses, learn to get by on far lower budgets,  get people who play to play more, or get new people into the game. Either way, something has to be done in order to maintain golf courses as a semi-profitable business.  The problems we face come from people not wanting to tell anyone that they are wrong for fear that those people will stop playing. They don't even think about the people who play behind them and are punished because a select few want to be stupid.
--But the bottom line is, it was mid-day on a holiday weekend. Expect stupid things to happen, expect slow play, expect anything wierd. I don't play golf on holidays anymore.

[noonan]

Jerry,

How much did they charge you for your kid to ride with your friend?

$13

[Tommy Williamsen]

When I was a kid the pro at the course gave etiquette lessons.  Before we could go out on the course we had to learn how to act.  I remember one day I walked into the pro shop with a broken three wood. "I asked the pro, "Mr Rasnic can you fix it?"  He wondered how it broke.  "I dunno, it just broke."
He looked me dead in the eye and said, "Tommy they don't just break by themselves."  I fessed up that I broke it by slamming it down on the ground.  He told me flat our, "Golfers and gentlemen do not behave that was."  He banned me from the golf course for two weeks.  My folks concurred.  I learned that bad behavior has consequences.  Think that could happen today? 

Manners are taught.  Unfortunately, I don't think they are taught enough.

[MargaretC]

There is no etiquette left in the game at muni's.

The public courses are also staffed with morons.

My 12 year old and I headed out to the muni we belong to.

There are 3 courses..... a par 3 and 2 full size courses.

We chose the least busy of the big courses....it happened to be the biggest course.

He tees up from the red tees or the fairway on the par 5's and longest par 4's.

We always play in under 4 hours if we do not have to wait.

A avid friend golfer was riding and my son was riding with him.

On the 1st tee we were confronted by the starter about my son playing the big course. It was 1pm and the 6 cartballers behind us were concerned about pace of play.

The ignorant ranger completely ignored the 2 blue hairs that teed off in front of us playing the 6750 yard white tees. The old timers barely made it to the fairway on the 1st hole and completely ignored the yellow senior tees.

Needless to say we waited every shot following the old guys.

The cartballers behind us hit into us on 7 fairway. Upon my walking back up the fairway they got the point they should not hit into us. I asked them if they had noticed that we were waiting on every hole on the group in front of us. I told tham if they hot an errant shot that hit us it would not be a big deal. However if they hit us on the same hole we would have some problems.

Before being hit into on 7.....a group of the locals decided they would be teeing off on 8. Cross country golf his a hobby amongst the local drunks on weekend afternoons. This is not the 1st time these idiots hopped in front of us. This time they slid in front of the group in front of us. In doing this, the group in front of us had to wait on the cc golfers on 8 green.

After the completion of the round I confronted the desk help inside. I told him he allowed this to happen because he knew these idiots keep the carts all day. He said he has complained about the problem to no resolution.

Tomorrow, I will be calling the pro and the director of golf and requesting a refund of my membership. This course cannot figure out why play is down 50% from 10 years ago.

If you are not affluent enough to belong to a club, this is what you are faced with at muni's these days.

Jerry:

I feel your pain.  We have six children 14 yrs to 5 yrs and we insist that the rules of the game are followed -- emphasizing courtesy and pace of play.  We've purchased the USGA video and make the kids watch it.  They know that golf is way more than striking the ball.

Our son just made the golf team last year.  One of our annoyances is that the coach doesn't really emphasize the rules -- he allows kids to play out of turn, etc.  His point-of-view is that the kids can "learn that stuff later."  I strongly disagree, but try not to be "one of those parents."    Our son knows that we don't share that view and work with him in the ways he can address rules diplomatically with others so he doesn't appear to be a know it all.

There are two munis that we play and the pro at one of them will let us have the first tee time, if it is available, because he knows we will finish the round in approximately 3.5 hours.

I don't blame you for asking for your money back.  The round you tried to play was anything but fun.

[Steve Kline]

"The problems we face come from people not wanting to tell anyone that they are wrong for fear that those people will stop playing." - JKM

As a student of economics and a financial analyst for my company, this tells me there is an oversupply/pricing problem. If there weren't too many courses that were too expensive you wouldn't fear losing customers by demanding that they meet certain standards. Healthy businesses know the customers they want to have and don't do business with customers that don't fit that model.

For example, we sell ad space in our magazines. Some people always want a deal. All of our competitors deal, but we don't because we think it is unfair to our other customers to give one a better price than everyone else is getting. So, there are some companies that won't advertise with us. But everyone that does advertise with us know they will be treated fairly. Coincidentally, every one of our magazines is #1 or #2 in its field. You choose your customers.

[Dan Herrmann]

Jerry - Seeing how it's a muni, why not talk to the town/city council?  If you go to the council, be sure to look up the local paper's reporter that will usually be in attendance.  It'd be a great story for them.

I too feel your pain.  In a similar vein, I used to LOVE to go to NFL games, but the whole experience is really horrible nowadays.

[Philippe Binette]

Lawrence, I wouldn't blame Tiger for making the game manistream...

I just think that the game and the authorities were not ready for the game to be mainstream... after all the game is mainstream in scotland for 100 years or more.

It's like the slow play problem, people are suggesting 14 holes golf courses, bigger cups etc... the thruth is that the authorities and the clubs don't take their responsibilities.

Make the starter the boss, who decides which tee you're playing
Make the marshall a full authority.
Be ready to kick out people out of the course and give their money back.
After all the fun of 1 group playing in five hours is not more important than the fun of everybody behind.

If one course decide to guarantee 4h00 rounds by being strict, it might offend some people, but people will be waiting at the gate and the course would be full

[John Burzynski]

Also not sure this is a problem exclusive to muni's.

[John Kavanaugh]

Also not sure this is a problem exclusive to muni's.

People having fun on a golf course is not a problem. 

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Also not sure this is a problem exclusive to muni's.

It is not exclusive to munis.  The issue goes along with an industry struggling to survive in a very difficult time.  Our pro does his best to educate the juniors(about 100in our excellent program) but the kids parents can be guilty of acting like fools.  Players in carts pressing groups of walkers is one of my pet peeves.  We have allowed denim in the clubhouse and now we fight that battle on the golf course.  Some drunks simply ignore rules of decorum and other folks were never enlightened as to the rules of gentlemanly behavior and bristle when it is suggested they are boors.  

The grandeur of the game is simply not what is was when I was taught some 45 years ago.  

Now that I have complained, does anyone have any good suggestions?

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Also not sure this is a problem exclusive to muni's.

People having fun on a golf course is not a problem. 

John while I agree, when the behavior of the groups around you affect your ability to relax and enjoy, what do you suggest we do? 

I handle groups hitting into me this way 1st infraction, I turn around and glare, 2nd infraction goes on a tee and the third goes back. 

[Adam Clayman]

I've heard stories before about groups of regulars, who happen to drink to excess and gamble religiously, who run rough shot over the golf course. They ruin the experience for everyone else up until the point they are asked to not return. At that point the course returns to it's normal revenue stream and all is right with the world.

I believe Santa Fe CC use to have this problem. Contact Pat Brockwell for better information and possible solution.

 

[John Kavanaugh]

I've heard stories before about groups of regulars, who happen to drink to excess and gamble religiously, who run rough shot over the golf course.

I heard those same stories from my Greatgrandfather who imigrated from Scotland.  This is why back in 72 when I was a 12 year old golfer I would not be on the course the same time as the guys who only played on the weekends and liked to have a little fun.

[Dan Herrmann]

Speaking of boors on munis - I remember almost fainting the first time I played Heron Lakes in Portland, Oregon.  On the second tee, the three guys I was paired with all took their shirts off and stayed that way till they got back to the 9th green.  Apparently, male shirtless golf is common on NW USA munis.

Ughh....

[Melvyn Morrow]

Some weeks ago I was advised by many on this site that there is no collective responsibility for anything let alone this site. I don’t totally accept that, because we are or should be responsible for our actions.

I have and will continue to make errors, but I will always try and support those in need and assist as and when possible those who ask or I see require some encouragement (and I would happily include David Moriarty within that comment).

The one thing that I was taught when I started golf was the requirement to conduct myself in accordance to the customs and rules of the Game. To enjoy the game I needed to accept Golf etiquette. Nothing strange or mad about that, to me it guaranteed a standard missing from most other sports. My father explained it more simply its respect for other golfers and yourself. The basic fundamentals of trust, courtesy and self respect.

Regrettable for whatever reason these basic requirements are no longer taught at many golf course and they have been allowed to erode. We tolerate drunks mainly on carts and reading Jerry’s post much more as well. Course etiquette is no longer considered important by the Public & some private clubs (money sometimes talks), perhaps trying to squeeze more money out of the slowly reducing numbers,

Jerry’s post is actually very important for the future of Golf. More family involvements in clubs are or should be the order of the day. How can we persuade more members or people to take up golf if we allow this type of intimidation to take place. Crude, drunken and loutish behaviour should be
addressed immediately and a clear message sent out that this club or Course will not accept this type of behaviour from anyone. Some form of collective responsibility would not go amiss or are we now a society that turns the other way or walks across the road when someone is mugged or assaulted, using the excuse that I’m not involved, its not my fault or I had nothing to do with it.

Are we going to show more compassion towards trees that are vandalised or birds that are repeated hit by a golfer? Or are we going to protest in numbers to those in charge to take some firm action, starting with some simple signage and the consequences of ignoring the rules.

But then do we really want be bothered, do we love our wives and children enough to want them protected, is a little bit of collective responsibility the first part towards an answer – well who knows – that’s a question we each have to ask ourselves, but well done Jerry, thanks for re-raising that very important debate again.

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