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Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mackenzie and St Andrews GC, Yonkers - NEW EVIDENCE
« on: July 05, 2008, 09:49:03 AM »
Pardon another Mackenzie thread but I'm interested to know whether what I am putting forward is 'new' or not - I don't think it has been discussed here before but guess I'll find out soon enough.

Reading David Owen's 'The Making of the Masters' again, which I reckon incidentally is a pretty decent book, I was struck by a snippet on page 66:

"Augusta National was not the only club that owed MacKenzie money. St. Andrews, in Yonkers, New York, had "repudiated" his fees, he told Roberts, and two other clubs for which he had done design work had gone belly-up."

It's clear from Owen's writings that he had access to ANGC's archives in writing this book, and he refers a good deal to the correspondence between Mackenzie and Clifford Roberts. I believe he is quoting the word "repudiated" from one of Mackenzie's letters to Roberts, which is an interesting word to use. An old Websters dictionary I have (given to my parents in 1953 as a wedding gift) provides one definition of 'repudiate' as "To refuse to acknowledge or to pay; to disclaim, as debts", so it has that financial sense.

I have never heard Mackenzie's name in connection with St Andrews, presumably as any design work he may have done for them was never implemented. I wonder if it has any connection with this extract from Mackenzie's article for The American Golfer from May 1933 entitled "Problems in Remodelling Courses":

"The other instance concerned a club amongst the oldest in America. The course was designed years before anyone had formulated any definite ideas about golf architecture, so it was hardly to be expected that the layout would be ideal. As a matter of fact, the general design was no better than that of other courses which were constructed about the same period.

The first four and the last four holes were extremely hilly. There were many fine architectural features and backgrounds that were not utilized. There were many parallel holes and there was a stream, which should have been used as a diagonal hazard, which was crossed at right angles. The course was far too difficult for the average golfer, and, on the other hand, of little interest to the good player. In fact it was somewhat surprising that the members got any real pleasure in playing it.

On the other hand the chairman of the greens committee had made a study of golf courses, and had eliminated the worst of the hill climbing at the end of the course. Also the club had an excellent greens keeper, who had got the course into very good shape. Apart from the hills, there was not much acreage to make a first class golf course, and a plan for taking in more ground involving an expenditure, of considerably more than a hundred thousand dollars had been considered.

My problem was to use as many of the existing greens as possible and to evolve a good golf course at a minimum of expense. I had never a more difficult problem with which to deal, and, after several weeks of careful study and planning, I evolved a scheme, which, without taking in any additional land, would give an exceptionally pleasurable and interesting course at an extremely low cost. One hole had already been made from one of the plans, when unfortunately something happened in the inner workins of the club and the work was not carried through to a finish."

My question is this - was Mackenzie describing St Andrews GC in this article? I am not familiar with the course as it existed then to know if the description of hills and stream match, but certainly his reference to a club among the oldest in America would seem to fit. But if it isn't St Andrews, then I wonder which course he may have been referring to?

Any help gratefully appreciated.

Incidentally, in the next paragraph of that article, Mackenzie refers to a similar case in Montreal where he prepared plans for the reconstruction of a course there that were accepted by the greens committee but then were overruled by the board of directors on the grounds he was making the course too difficult. Any ideas on a candidate in Montreal?

cheers Neil


« Last Edit: March 24, 2011, 03:33:46 AM by Neil_Crafter »

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie and St Andrews GC, Yonkers. Also Montreal.
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2008, 10:13:36 AM »
never heard that story before...

possible the course (not the club) no longer exists... Many clubs in Montreal had courses in the now Dorval-Lasalle area... (summerlea, elm ridge and royal montreal among them) they all move with the town expansion

Thomas MacWood

Re: Mackenzie and St Andrews GC, Yonkers. Also Montreal.
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2008, 10:25:24 AM »
Neil
I think you are putting forth something new, and yes that does sound like St.Andrews. There is a huge hill (I believe the clubhouse sits up there) and a winding stream.

After MacKenzie's death Ohio State was trying to track down the individual green plans he done for the two courses. Wendell Miller thought he had them filed away but it turned the plans he had were for St.Andrews, Yonkers.

In the 'Spirit' he mentions a recent visit to Mount Bruno'; he said the previous year he had played there with the British Seniors.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2008, 11:05:22 AM by Tom MacWood »

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie and St Andrews GC, Yonkers. Also Montreal.
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2008, 10:45:40 AM »
mount bruno still exist, probably the best course in montreal... I don't think A mac did anything else than play there

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie and St Andrews GC, Yonkers. Also Montreal.
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2008, 10:51:23 AM »

Neil
I think you are putting forth something new, and yes that does not sound like St.Andrews. There is a huge hill (I believe the clubhouse sits up there) and a winding stream.

Tom, presumably you meant "that does sound like St Andrews", yes?

Interesting info from Wendell Miller about green plans. Could you send me the letter from Miller in which he refers to the St Andrews plans? Thanks in advance!

I am working with Sean Tully, Mark Bourgeois and Nick Leefe on the Mackenzie timeline project but as a sideline I am also working up a spreadsheet on the courses of Dr Mackenzie and we have turned up quite a few interesting ones, seemingly not recognised before that we are in the process of checking out. there will also be a section on courses he consulted to but his ideas were not implemented. St Andrews and the Montreal course could go in that category.

As for Montreal, yes he talks about Mount Bruno in Spirit now that I've checked, he played there in 1928 so as he refers to this event being "the previous year" it's fair to say he was there in 1929. And from the sound of the text, he was there to inspect the course with a view to modifications. Excellent.

Phillipe, it is not suggested that Mackenzie did anything other than consult to them and give them plans, which were not used. Is this possible? Worth checking with the club as such a procedure as Mackenzie described surely must have been recorded in minutes and club histories you would think.


Mark Bourgeois

Re: Mackenzie and St Andrews GC, Yonkers. Also Montreal.
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2008, 11:04:35 AM »
Neil

Are you sure about an inspection? I don't recall this from my reading of the text.  BTW I tried to look into Mont Bruno a few months ago -- dropped it when I discovered they apparently are so exclusive (or is it just antediluvian?) they lack a website!

Mark

Thomas MacWood

Re: Mackenzie and St Andrews GC, Yonkers. Also Montreal.
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2008, 11:19:17 AM »
Neil
I'm not sure if it was a letter or telegram, but my notes have Miller's correspondence in 1934. Not much help in placing a date on when Mackenzie may have worked at St.Andrews. Based on Miller's apparent involvement my guess would be around the time of Bayside.

By the way the timeline says MacKenzie was at Crystal Downs in Spring 1928 ~ I'm pretty sure it was October 1928.


Phil_the_Author

Re: Mackenzie and St Andrews GC, Yonkers. Also Montreal.
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2008, 11:24:30 AM »
I sent off an email to my publisher. He is past president of St. Andrews in Yonkers. Hopefully he'll get back with the information soon!

Thomas MacWood

Re: Mackenzie and St Andrews GC, Yonkers. Also Montreal.
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2008, 11:30:16 AM »
Mark
An inspection is the logical inference.

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie and St Andrews GC, Yonkers. Also Montreal.
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2008, 11:34:49 AM »
Mark
On p 56 he writes:
"I recently visited a course in Montreal, a magnificent piece of golfing country with beautiful surroundings called Mount Bruno. I had seen it the previous year when I played there with the British Senior Golfers Team. In the interim they had constructed a new bunker a long way off the line on the right of the fairway. I asked them what it was for and they said "to punish a bad slice." I remarked "Good Lord, if a man slices as badly as that you should be sorry for him."

Mac consistently refers to 'they' and 'them', which could reasonably only be taken as the club or the committee. I feel pretty confident that this was an inspection of the course with club representatives in tow - and I've done my fair share of these so I should know!

Possibly exclusive and antediluvian as well. Hope we can break through for some glimpse into their records.

Any thoughts on St Andrews, Mark?

Tom
Can you confirm what you were saying about whether it is or isn't St Andrews based on the land description? Yes if Miller was involved must have been later in the piece, hope you can dig out the correspondence for me.

Timeline's new version 14 now has October 1928 not Spring, reference from DSH and an old Links magazine article on Crystal Downs. The last version may have had Spring but it has been fixed now.

Philip
That's excellent! Hope he comes up with something.



Thomas MacWood

Re: Mackenzie and St Andrews GC, Yonkers. Also Montreal.
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2008, 01:02:52 PM »
Neil
I can't confirm it because I'm not familar with precise routing of the course. I have seen lots of pictures of St. Andrews over the years and they almost all feature the huge hill and or the stream. Unfortunately I can't find any good pictures at present. I did find this article from 1933, which I don't recall seeing before.

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1933/ag3612k.pdf

The aesthetics of the bunker in the foreground is very interesting. Modern irrigation systems were Wendell Miller's forte, in fact that was primary business before getting into the construction game with AM.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Mackenzie and St Andrews GC, Yonkers. Also Montreal.
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2008, 01:14:57 PM »
Neil:

That description does indeed sound like the old Yonkers course to me.  The first four holes were on hilly ground near the clubhouse and then the fifth tee shot (now the fourth) played very sharply downhill ... the last four holes worked back uphill from the bottom to the clubhouse.

I remember reading the description you posted but I had never heard that MacKenzie had visited St. Andrews, so I didn't make the connection.

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie and St Andrews GC, Yonkers. Also Montreal.
« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2008, 10:30:56 PM »
Tom D
Thanks for the confirmation that the description sounds like Yonkers. I found these two separate pieces of information in two different sources and was wondering if there was a connection. Sounds quite possible as the course description at least matches. Hopefully Philip's contact may be able to establish this.

Mackenzie refers to something happening in the inner workings of the club causing the plans to be abandoned, and for some reason, it would appear Mackenzie's bill was not paid and indeed "repudiated". Wonder what was the cause? Perhaps it kind of got ugly on both sounds and was not an experience the club has wanted to publicize or draw attention to as a result. No one likes failed projects. But surely enough time has passed for the facts to come out - lets hope so.

Just a question Tom - in the Mackenzie book how much of the courses list was the work of Scott and how much yours? Just curious.

Tom Mac
Yes, interesting looking bunker in that Am Golfer article. Mackenzie did say that one hole was completed, wonder if that could be it? Tom, how much is known about Miller? I have never come across too much about him and never seen a picture of him. Would he have been worthy of inclusion in the list of Mackenzie's collaborators in the DSH book do you think. Tom D?


Thomas MacWood

Re: Mackenzie and St Andrews GC, Yonkers. Also Montreal.
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2008, 12:27:09 AM »
I do think Miller is worthy. He was his collaborator during his most revolutionary period, debateably...with all due respect to Joshua Crane.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2008, 12:53:39 AM by Tom MacWood »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Mackenzie and St Andrews GC, Yonkers. Also Montreal.
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2008, 09:26:17 AM »
Neil:  Dr. Scott was supposed to be the researcher (with Ray Haddock's help) and I was just supposed to write about the course architecture.  I corrected a couple of attributions which I knew to be wrong, but I didn't double-check all of the rest.

As for Wendell Miller, he was a contractor, and presumably had done work for other designers before MacKenzie although I do not know who they were.  He may very well have had a significant influence on MacKenzie's style -- the last bit of The Spirit of St. Andrews is all about economy of labor and building fewer bunkers and how they were able to build Bayside with so few laborers, and clearly he and Wendell Miller had discussed the advantages of all that.  But, Miller did not style himself as an architect or an associate, and MacKenzie referred Augusta to Marion Hollins rather than Miller when it was suggested he get another eye on the ground and the Doctor couldn't afford to get there himself from California.  The only course Miller worked on without oversight was the reconstruction of Palmetto, and even there I don't think he made himself out to be a design associate.

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Mackenzie and St Andrews GC, Yonkers. Also Montreal.
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2008, 09:54:54 AM »
At Augusta Miller wrote Jones saying the members complained about how 15 played and should he change it. Jones wrote a three word response, of which I can remember only two words, "no go."

Not sure the timing, but that seems to indicate his judgement might not have been respected.

Reckon Palmetto pooh bahs thought highly enough of W Rutherfurd for him to oversee the effort.

Mark
« Last Edit: July 06, 2008, 10:10:50 AM by Mark Bourgeois »

Thomas MacWood

Re: Mackenzie and St Andrews GC, Yonkers. Also Montreal.
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2008, 10:38:46 AM »
Miller never claimed to be a designer. He was definitely a construction man all the way. He should be included in the group of talented construction men MacKenzie was blessed with, many who are profiled in the book.

He built the bunkers at ANGC four months after AM left for California for the final time. He built all the greens at Palmetto without the doctor's supervision. He was not unique in this respect but he should be put on par with others.

What seperated Miller from the others IMO was the revolutionary construction method he used at Bayside, Jockey, ANGC, and few others during the Depression.  A heavily mechanized system that allowed them to build a golf course in a remarkably short time, and most importantly at a cost savings.

It should also be noted Miller was great admirer of MacKenzie and his brilliant talent.

Speaking of changing Augusta, wasn't the semi-blind bunker in the middle 11th fairway yanked out because Jones's father was angry after landing in it? I guess it depends on which member is complaining.


Thomas MacWood

Re: Mackenzie and St Andrews GC, Yonkers. Also Montreal.
« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2008, 10:48:31 AM »
I might add MacKenzie's Depression era design approach, with few bunkers, little or no rough, mounds and large undulating greens has been discussed often, but Miller's new economical contruction method, which went hand and hand with the design style, has been virtually ignored.

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mackenzie and St Andrews GC, Yonkers. Also Montreal.
« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2008, 06:40:31 PM »
Tom D
Thanks for the info re the book's courses lists.
I understand that Miller was an engineer and a contractor, but I was thinking along the lines of collaborators like Morcom and Fleming who were primarily construction men too and these guys made the list. Arguably Miller was involved with building more of Mackenzie's courses than Morcom, who to my knowledge was involved only at Royal Melbourne West (with Russell) and with the bunkering at Kingston Heath (with son Vern). Just wondering whether there was a view that Miller may have been worthy of a collaborator listing - clearly he was not an associate or partner.

Tom Mac
The more I have been looking at Mackenzie's later works the more I see the importance of Miller to him. After the divorce and breakdown of the relationship with his brother which presumably saw the American Golf Course Construction Co no longer active, Mackenzie would have needed a reliable construction team, and I guess Miller was able to step into the breach - his mechanized construction systems would no doubt have greatly appealed to Mackenzie's ideas on economy and finality.


Phil_the_Author

Re: Mackenzie and St Andrews GC, Yonkers. Also Montreal.
« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2008, 10:03:08 PM »
In answer to the question about Mackenzie at St. Andrews in Yonkers, My publisher, Mike Beckerich at Classics of Golf, who is a 7-time past president of the club and examined the records, sent me this email to share:

Phil==James Braid was given a topo of the golf course about 1929 and his changes were faithfully implemented.  The short answer to MacKenzie is that he is never mentioned in the context of St. Andrew’s.  Braids involvement most likely filled the need for an architect.
      St. Andrew’s was always considered a members course and a delightful “work in the park”. Senior members routinely played golf on Sunday afternoon with their wives, much in the context of Blind Brook today..
      There are many clubs in the Westchester area that can fit that description; Apawamis to name one.

So, evidently Mackenzie was never there...


Thomas MacWood

Re: Mackenzie and St Andrews GC, Yonkers. Also Montreal.
« Reply #20 on: July 06, 2008, 10:34:58 PM »
Phil
Are sure MacKenzie was never there? Would it be more accurate to say that your publisher has no knowledge of him being there? Clearly he was there 1) he said he was there in his book 2) confirmed by Wendell Miller who said he had a set of MacKenzie's plans for St.Andrews.

Eight months after MacKenzie's death his estate had claims against a number of clubs for services rendered: County Burrough of Walsail, England; Sacramento Golf Commission; Augusta National; Union League GC; Capuchino GC; Woodside CC; Northwood, Cal; St.Andrews, NY; Broadstone, England; Northshore-Scarborogh, England

Phil_the_Author

Re: Mackenzie and St Andrews GC, Yonkers. Also Montreal.
« Reply #21 on: July 06, 2008, 10:52:34 PM »
Tom,

You asked, "Are sure MacKenzie was never there?" Nope, I have no idea at all.

"Would it be more accurate to say that your publisher has no knowledge of him being there?" No it wouldn't. Mike organized the archives in years past and checked to see if there was anything that could be found. There wasn't. Does that mean that Mackenzie wasn't there? No, but it also doesn't necessarily mean that he was either.

"Clearly he was there 1) he said he was there in his book 2) confirmed by Wendell Miller who said he had a set of MacKenzie's plans for St.Andrews." Both may very well be true, but the real question is was he there at the REQUEST of St. Andrew's? Is it possible that one of the members brought him in to "have a look and make a few suggestions" and this is how and why he made plans for the course?

"Eight months after MacKenzie's death his estate had claims against a number of clubs for services rendered: County Burrough of Walsail, England; Sacramento Golf Commission; Augusta National; Union League GC; Capuchino GC; Woodside CC; Northwood, Cal; St.Andrews, NY; Broadstone, England; Northshore-Scarborogh, England."

All well and good... but what was the result of the estate's claims? Were they ever recognized or denied by St. Andrew's in writing? Could it be that the executor of his estate simply sued every club that there were plans for and no record of monies?

Situations such as this do happen on both sides of the aisle. For example, the Dellwood CC in New City, New York, is an original Tillinghast design from the 1920's. In the late '50's they hired RTJ Sr. who redesigned and completely re-routed and changed the course. In 2003 I was aksed to take a look at it and advise on just how much of the original Tillinghast course still existed.

To their great surprise and embarrassment, it turned out that almost all of it was still there, for no work was ever done! The reason? It was found in their old records when we turned up a letter from RTJ Sr. who refused to do any work since he hadn't been paid!

Could this be the case at St. Andrew's? Maybe, but the club doesn't think so. If anyone has any actual documentation such as correspondence I would love to see it and pass it along. I know that they would certainly be willing to recognize it if it were true...

Thomas MacWood

Re: Mackenzie and St Andrews GC, Yonkers. Also Montreal.
« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2008, 10:59:34 PM »
Phil
Interesting story but I'm not sure it applies. MacKenzie never claimed he designed the golf course, just the opposite, he described the difficulties he encountered at the club. Have you been following this thread?

Phil_the_Author

Re: Mackenzie and St Andrews GC, Yonkers. Also Montreal.
« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2008, 11:24:13 PM »
Tom,

Yes, I am following the thread. Mackenzie did plans for St. Andrew's that he & his estate think he should have been paid for.

Simple enough...

The club has no record of ever asking him to do anything at all or any attempts made to collect money from them.

Also simple enough...

So I asked that since, "Eight months after MacKenzie's death his estate had claims against a number of clubs for services rendered... St.Andrews, NY..."
does anyone have any of the actual paperwork or documentation other than what Mackenzie and Miller wrote?

The reason I cited the Dellwood CC situation is becasuse they not only thought the work had been done, but that they had paid RTJ Sr. for it. He hadn't been paid and documentation for that was eventually found because REASONS were given to search for them.

Other than my good will, I would love to have real documents to refer to that might then stimulate a full and complete search of their records. Imagine if by doing so a set of Mackenzie plans were found?

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Mackenzie and St Andrews GC, Yonkers. Also Montreal.
« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2008, 11:29:37 PM »
Tom MacW

The claims made by the estate, were those filed in the court systems of the states in which the courses / clubs exist(ed), or would all of that have gone through the California courts?

Do you have the records?

Mark

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