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Dan King

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The Lido Golf Course by C.B. Macdonald
« on: July 03, 2008, 01:36:00 PM »
I found this article while looking for something else. It is from Golf Illustrated & Outdoor America, 1915 July Vol. 3, Issue 4, pgs. 31-35. I don't know if this article has been discussed before, but it is a pretty cool article:

The Lido Golf Course by C.B. Macdonald.

Cheers,
Dan King
Quote
To write a description of any golf necessitates stating the premise upon which is based the description -- for instance, the undulations and hillocks, the character and placing of the bunkers, the variety of putting greens, each to suit the particular charachter of hole, the quality of turf, the width of the fair green, and the description of the teeing grounds with their proximity to putting greens -- in fact there is so much ground to cover that I can give you only a brief description.
 --C.B. Macdonad (writing on Lido, 1915)

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: The Lido Golf Course by C.B. Macdonald
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2008, 01:59:07 PM »
Thank you Dan.

If you can align the routing on a double page in acrobat the model looks pretty cool - pretty tight too.

I like the Vardon comment about the large majority of American courses lack fairway undulations.  Seems to be more true than ever - with the exception of the favored few here.

I can't imagine the 4th being one of the finest in the world.  Seems like there isn't much choice between the fairways - if you can hit it you go for it...

Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Jim Nugent

Re: The Lido Golf Course by C.B. Macdonald
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2008, 02:12:28 PM »
Are there any photos of the Lido course, after it was finished?  Would really like to see what the holes look like. 

Phil McDade

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Re: The Lido Golf Course by C.B. Macdonald
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2008, 03:26:40 PM »
Jim:

Daniel Wexler's "Missing Links" has several B/W photos of the Lido.

Dan King

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Re: The Lido Golf Course by C.B. Macdonald
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2008, 03:56:08 PM »
Some pictures and text about Lido written by Joshua Crane in a 1927 Golf Illustrated article:
Famous American Courses: Lido

No pictures of the golf course in this one, but still interesting:
Lido's New Home Golf Illustrated, by A. C. Gregson. Vol. 29 No. 5, August 1928.

Cheers,
Dan King
Quote
While the views, except where the course borders the beach, are rather flat ad uninteresting, such a contrast to Westard Ho!, for instance, where there is so much picturesque high land surrounding the broad estuary of Barnstaple Bay, yet there is engendered a feeling of the open spaces and freedom to swing the brassie without any fear of coming in contact with trees or houses in the back swing, that enhances so largely the real pleasure of golf.
 --Joshua Crane (on Lido, 1927)

Jim Nugent

Re: The Lido Golf Course by C.B. Macdonald
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2008, 01:47:53 AM »
Thanks for the links, Dan.  When I click on the 2nd article, by Gregson, I get Crane's article.

Crane did not like NGLA much.  He said it followed the outward appearance of the famous holes in Great Britain, but overlooked their principles.  He especially pointed up the Alps hole at NGLA as poorly done. 

 

RJ_Daley

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Re: The Lido Golf Course by C.B. Macdonald
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2008, 01:56:06 AM »
I gotta believe that after Lido, they took this show on the road and tried to nearly duplicate the process with CC of Charleston.  Not to thread jack, but I'm just saying...
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: The Lido Golf Course by C.B. Macdonald
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2008, 03:15:35 AM »
Mike N:  I don't think the choice of line for the 4th hole at Lido was so clear-cut.  The target to the right was fairly small and the rough was reputedly VERY thick, so you had to have confidence in hitting a straight shot as well as being able to make the carry ... there was a real risk involved even for longer hitters, because if they missed the fairway, they would have to hack out and might not even make the green in three.

TEPaul

Re: The Lido Golf Course by C.B. Macdonald
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2008, 08:56:36 AM »
Macdonald said he felt Lido's 4th (Channel hole) was the best two shot hole in the world even though a full 90% of golfers would have to play it as a three shot hole. It was listed on the card as a 505 yard par 5 although it was 466 directly from tee to the green using the right alternate fairway which required a 210 yard carry. The Alternate fairway was in constructed dunes and was 30-35 yards wide and 100 yards long. From there it was expected a good player would need a driving iron or brassie to reach the green over a dangerous bunker about forty yards short of the green.

(For comparison sake it seems to me asking a good player to make a 210 yard carry in 1915 would be something like asking a good player today to make about a 275 yard CARRY!)
« Last Edit: July 04, 2008, 08:59:51 AM by TEPaul »

Dan King

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Re: The Lido Golf Course by C.B. Macdonald
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2008, 10:25:03 AM »
Correction:
Lido's New Home Golf Illustrated, by A. C. Gregson. Vol. 29 No. 5, August 1928.

Sorry 'bout that.

Cheers,
Dan King
Quote
In a chariot of light from the region of the day,
The Goddess of Liberty came
She brought in her hand as a pledge of her love,
the plant she named Liberty Tree.
 --Thomas Paine

Rich Goodale

Re: The Lido Golf Course by C.B. Macdonald
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2008, 10:59:57 AM »
Good to see that there were PR flacks around in the Golden Age too.  The statement that Lido would be as permanent as the great golf courses of Britain would vie as a finalist for the worst prediction of 1928, along with, "Stock market has nowhere to go but up!"

George_Bahto

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Re: The Lido Golf Course by C.B. Macdonald
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2008, 12:35:31 PM »
The 4th Lido:

I personally think the direct route to the green at 4-Lido was too penal which caused most golfers to select the 3-shot route, negating much of the choice.

Fortunately Macdonald (and Raynor) decided to use it early in the front 9. At least if you screwed it up (easy to do) you had 14 holes left.

Remember there were winds at Lido and the 4th was very susceptible to a left to right, off ocean wind so a faded ball to the risk fairway could easily blow off the course into the channel.

Off fairway was sand and sea bents. The raised risk-fairway was considerably higher than the safer-route fairway. That route had all water all along the left and sidehill sand hazard on the (slice-side) right on the tee shot.

At Old Macdonald this “hole strategy” falls late in the round and a strong effort will be made to make both routes to the green the be both attractive off the tee as well as confusing and confounding off the tee.


« Last Edit: July 04, 2008, 12:43:30 PM by George_Bahto »
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

George_Bahto

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Re: The Lido Golf Course by C.B. Macdonald
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2008, 12:48:56 PM »
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

DMoriarty

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Re: The Lido Golf Course by C.B. Macdonald
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2008, 12:54:47 PM »
Good to see that there were PR flacks around in the Golden Age too.  The statement that Lido would be as permanent as the great golf courses of Britain would vie as a finalist for the worst prediction of 1928, along with, "Stock market has nowhere to go but up!"

The statement was that the Lido, the National, and Pine Valley would be as permanent as the great courses of Britain.  Two out of three isn't bad in the prediction business.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

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Re: The Lido Golf Course by C.B. Macdonald
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2008, 12:55:49 PM »
Good to see that there were PR flacks around in the Golden Age too.  The statement that Lido would be as permanent as the great golf courses of Britain would vie as a finalist for the worst prediction of 1928, along with, "Stock market has nowhere to go but up!"

The statement was that the Lido, the National, and Pine Valley would be as permanent as the great courses of Britain.  Two out of three correct, not bad in the prediction business.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Rich Goodale

Re: The Lido Golf Course by C.B. Macdonald
« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2008, 12:58:03 PM »

David

Your comment wasn't good enough to be posted twice. ;)

Peter Pallotta

Re: The Lido Golf Course by C.B. Macdonald
« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2008, 05:24:04 PM »
Dan - thanks for the link. I'd read that article before, but it was quite a while ago. I was struck again by the simplicty, directness and richness of the following line:

"This unpromising territory was chosen for the making of an ideal golf course partly because of its climate and proximity to New York but partly also because it left the hand of the golf architect perfectly free to build his course from the bottom up."

It's amazing how many concepts/ideas/philosophies/debates about the art and craft (and business) of golf course architecture are referenced in just that one simple sentence.

To me, the most interesting part is the juxtaposition of/relationship between  the pursuit of an "ideal" golf course with the "free hand" given an architect. You could write a book about it....

Peter

« Last Edit: July 04, 2008, 09:05:35 PM by Peter Pallotta »

DMoriarty

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Re: The Lido Golf Course by C.B. Macdonald
« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2008, 01:45:23 AM »

David

Your comment wasn't good enough to be posted twice. ;)

But yours was so clever it demanded two replies.

Dan - thanks for the link. I'd read that article before, but it was quite a while ago. I was struck again by the simplicty, directness and richness of the following line:

"This unpromising territory was chosen for the making of an ideal golf course partly because of its climate and proximity to New York but partly also because it left the hand of the golf architect perfectly free to build his course from the bottom up."

It's amazing how many concepts/ideas/philosophies/debates about the art and craft (and business) of golf course architecture are referenced in just that one simple sentence.

To me, the most interesting part is the juxtaposition of/relationship between  the pursuit of an "ideal" golf course with the "free hand" given an architect. You could write a book about it....

What do you think he meant by "ideal golf course?"

Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

John Sheehan

Re: The Lido Golf Course by C.B. Macdonald
« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2008, 03:18:05 AM »
Dan,
Thanks for posting those links.  Besides the interesting content, I love the writing style of those days too.
John

TEPaul

Re: The Lido Golf Course by C.B. Macdonald
« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2008, 07:48:32 AM »
"This unpromising territory was chosen for the making of an ideal golf course partly because of its climate and proximity to New York but partly also because it left the hand of the golf architect perfectly free to build his course from the bottom up."





"It's amazing how many concepts/ideas/philosophies/debates about the art and craft (and business) of golf course architecture are referenced in just that one simple sentence.

To me, the most interesting part is the juxtaposition of/relationship between the pursuit of an "ideal" golf course with the "free hand" given an architect. You could write a book about it...."


Peter:

A remark like that may not be worth an entire book but on the other hand maybe it is. It does pretty much go directly to the age old golf architecture question of how much good architecture should use what nature provides and how much an architect should actually manufacture? Obviously something like that depends so much on the natural site.

The fact is that answer was determined at the Lido site as naturally it was in no way conducive to a golf course. Ironically, that fact, according to Macdonald, is what got him to agree to do it in the first place----eg he could actually “CREATE” everything and anything he had not theretofore been able to find appropriate landforms for elsewhere. Macdonald said himself the prospect of what he could do by totally manufacturing Lido made him feel like he was “a CREATOR”. That sounds to me like he felt he could play the part of Nature itself at Lido where Nature provided no limitations to good golf and where all that he had previously wanted to do, particularly from abroad, was possible---possible for him to entirely manufacture, including all the little humps and bumps and contours of fairways and such, not to even mention ideal tees and greens and green sites and all the elevation configurations he wanted that could go with them.

I don’t think there’s any question either, that some American architects who were really beginning to make a name for themselves through the teens were probably beginning to get sort of turned off on Macdonald’s continuous theme and promotion of the idea that holes from abroad that were time tested were what should always be so liberally used in this country.

Another interesting thing with seemingly ALL Macdonald’s courses in New York through the years, including NGLA, and including Mid Ocean in Bermuda, is it seems at least some of the very same principals were always with him on everything he did. All of those men were rich and powerful New Yorkers and some from elsewhere and the fact is they all knew each other not just through golf but through their businesses and their own pretty tight-knit society in New York and Long Island that did extend to other locales frequented by these very same people.

The promotion and the superlatives about Lido’s course were pretty heady for sure including that it should be and would be one of the great enduring courses of the world. However, in my opinion at least, the demise of Lido which actually began very early, did not have much of anything to do with the golf course. Numerous other factors contributed to its demise which would include probably not the best over-all location, extremely bad timing with the onset of WW1, and perhaps just an general overreach that something like that would produce the demand the original principals thought it would. There was one other apparently unforeseen problem that could certainly kill the popularity of any golf course anywhere, no matter how great---a very endemic mosquito problem! The fact is the original principals, most all of whom were friends of Macdonald’s and with him on other courses pulled out and sold the place to independent real estate developers within just a few years of Lido’s creation.


« Last Edit: July 05, 2008, 07:56:00 AM by TEPaul »

Peter Pallotta

Re: The Lido Golf Course by C.B. Macdonald
« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2008, 12:43:59 PM »
David - While there are repeated mentions of how Lido reflects the great/historic golf holes, I think that in this case "ideal" means more than that. It means a golf course comprised of 18 great holes, i.e. a golf course without any weak holes.

TE - Because I think (i.e. am assuming) that "ideal" in this case means a golf course without any weak holes, it makes me wonder about when the esteem we have today for an architect's routing ability (i.e. for his ability to make the BEST POSSIBLE use of the site in its natural state) first manifested itself.

Peter 

Craig Disher

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Re: The Lido Golf Course by C.B. Macdonald
« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2008, 01:26:24 PM »

The promotion and the superlatives about Lido’s course were pretty heady for sure including that it should be and would be one of the great enduring courses of the world. However, in my opinion at least, the demise of Lido which actually began very early, did not have much of anything to do with the golf course. Numerous other factors contributed to its demise which would include probably not the best over-all location, extremely bad timing with the onset of WW1, and perhaps just an general overreach that something like that would produce the demand the original principals thought it would. There was one other apparently unforeseen problem that could certainly kill the popularity of any golf course anywhere, no matter how great---a very endemic mosquito problem! The fact is the original principals, most all of whom were friends of Macdonald’s and with him on other courses pulled out and sold the place to independent real estate developers within just a few years of Lido’s creation.


TEP,
Wasn't the search by the USN for a suitable training area as much of a cause as anything else? The course was in good shape as late as 1940 but by the end of the war, most of it was under military buildings and parking lots. Or did the original owners abandon it prior to the Navy takeover?

TEPaul

Re: The Lido Golf Course by C.B. Macdonald
« Reply #22 on: July 05, 2008, 01:27:58 PM »
"TE - Because I think (i.e. am assuming) that "ideal" in this case means a golf course without any weak holes, it makes me wonder about when the esteem we have today for an architect's routing ability (i.e. for his ability to make the BEST POSSIBLE use of the site in its natural state) first manifested itself."


Peter:

That's a good point.

Obviously routing a site, particularly one that has a ton of natural assets and topography and such for the best individual holes it may offer just may not get you even close to an ideal golf course in the sense those holes are in the right place and of the right type to conform to what most have considered really good balance and variety in a routing or sequential sense.

That fact seems to be one of the lesser known aspects about great natural sites and great routings, at least in an ideal balance and variety and sequential sense. It's a lot easier to produce a great routing in a balance and variety and sequential sense on a site that basically offers few natural obstacles to that goal, but the fact is to get really good holes on a site that has a lot less natural assets the architect will need to make a lot more himself simply because there just isn't that much of interest to use to come up with an ideal course in an individual hole sense.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2008, 01:29:40 PM by TEPaul »

Thomas MacWood

Re: The Lido Golf Course by C.B. Macdonald
« Reply #23 on: July 05, 2008, 01:37:44 PM »
The Metropolitan Open was played at Lido in 1932 and it hosted the Met Am in 1936.

TEPaul

Re: The Lido Golf Course by C.B. Macdonald
« Reply #24 on: July 05, 2008, 01:39:35 PM »
"TEP,
Wasn't the search by the USN for a suitable training area as much of a cause as anything else? The course was in good shape as late as 1940 but by the end of the war, most of it was under military buildings and parking lots. Or did the original owners abandon it prior to the Navy takeover?"

Craig:

I don't know the entire history of Lido that well and I never saw the course. I'm basically just mentioning what Macdonald said himself in his book that he wrote in 1927-28. He said the original principals sold out early and the new owners really had no idea how to take care of the course and they even did a few things that he thought kind of wrecked it, such as its basic drainage patterns early on. He said the first time he say it again after building it (a few years) it was really disappointing to him. He called it an example of "Love's labor lost."

To be honest, it seems pretty bizarre if a few years passed between Macdonald completing it and seeing it again. I can't imagine why that was. It isn't that far off the beaten road from NYC to Southampton. I guess a lot of that may've had to do with the war too. I don't think it was considered too cool to be playing a lot of golf or even constructing during the war or certainly in our approximately nineteen months in it.

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