[Dan Kelly]

From Jason Topp's thread on the Old Course (Out vs. In) -- where this post would have either diverted the thread or been ignored (which it may be, anyway!):

#4 is definitely better than #15, I think it's one of the five best holes on the course.

Tom (et al.) --

Why does it strike me as fairer, and more reasonable, to rank the holes on a single golf course than to rank golf courses against one another?

Be that as it may:

I'd be curious to see your (or anyone's) ranking, 1 to 18, of the holes on The Old Course ... or any other course, and particularly courses that most of us know well (Pebble, Augusta, Shinnecock).

If you'd care to undertake that assigment, I'd ask you, further, to assign *stars* -- on a system of * to **** -- for the holes. Are there 18 **** holes on your Doak 10 courses?

Thanks.

Dan

[Adam Clayman]

Dan, Hate to be the broken record but this seems even more futile. Breather holes will always rank lower which would tend to slight their importance. As far as I can tell they have a bad enough rap (people's inability to recognize their importance) going in. No need to pile on'em.

[Dan Kelly]

Dan, Hate to be the broken record but this seems even more futile. Breather holes will always rank lower which would tend to slight their importance. As far as I can tell they have a bad enough rap (people's inability to recognize their importance) going in. No need to pile on'em.

Presumably, there are * breather holes, ** breather holes, *** breather holes, and **** breather holes.

[Rich Goodale]

Dan

Tom himself gave hole by hole rankings for all the top courses, using chess notation (i.e. exclamation points (0-3) for brilliance and question marks (0-3) for "what the f.. was that?", with occasional combinations, e.g. "!!!???" for "could be great but there's something really weird about that hole...."

As I remember there was a great variety in the hole by hole rankings for all the best courses, i.e. some greatness, some quirkiness and some (relative) mediocrity.  I think they were meant to be indicative rather than additive.

Rich

[Dan Kelly]

Rich --

You're an expert on the Old Course.

Care to rank/rate the holes (w/ a notation system of your choosing -- possibly involving emoticons  !)?

Dan

[John Goodman]

Rihc, I think the individual hole notations in Confidential Guide are only as to TD's 31 flavors, "not the best 31 golf courses in the world, but among the first I would take a good friend to see."

Most of the courses he notates in this way have a number of un-notated holes.  Just eyeballing it quickly, Pinehurst #2 and Pine Valley have only two un-notated holes, Sand Hills only three.  Conversely, Rye and Dornoch have 8 un-notated holes; Prarie Dunes, 9; Forest Highlands and Casa de Campo, 10; Durban, 11.  

[Dan King]

Tom Doak ranked the holes for his Gourmet 31. Here is Mr. Doak's ranking for St. Andrews:

1.	Burn	370	!
2.	Dyke	411	!
3.	Cartgate (out)	371
4.	Ginger Beer	463	!
5.	Hole 'o Cross (out)	564	!
6.	Heathery (out)	416
7.	High (out)	372
8.	Short	178
9.	Short	356
10.	Bobby Jones	342
11.	High (in)	172	!!
12.	Heathery (in)	316	!?
13.	Hole 'o Cross (in)	425	!
14.	Long	567	!!
15.	Cartgate (in)	413
16.	Corner of the Dyke	382	!!
17.	Road	461	!!!
18.	Tom Morris	354	!

I'd help out with ranking holes, but I'm busy with a project ranking all the days of my life. My problem is it seems every day there is a new day that causes all the days to be recalculated. Currently my favorite day is a toss-up between the days my two children were born, the day my divorce was final, the day of my first hit of acid,  and the night I spent with two hookers named Good 'n' Plenty in Reno. I'm having a hard time coming up with a top day from those five.

Cheers,
Dan King

When I get real bored, I like to drive downtown and get a great parking spot, then sit in my car and count how many people ask me if I'm leaving.
 --Steven Wright

[Tom Huckaby]

I have no reticence using emoticons; I used to work for a company that devoted resources to creating them.

SO....

 

Dan King's made many great posts in his day, but that last quip was a doozie.  I am still dying.

But heck, why not try this for some other course?  Using Doak's method - and his reticence to give any comment for those holes not outstanding either way, as he did at TOC - here's my take on Cypress Point:

1. ?
2.
3.
4.
5. !
6.
7.
8. !!?
9. !!!
10.
11. !
12. !!
13. !
14. !!
15. !!!
16. !!!
17. ??!
18. ??

Does that make any sense?  What does it mean in the overall context?  Well hell, if one takes it to mean anything but that Cypress Point is one of the greatest courses on this planet, then you read me wrong.

TH

[Phil McDade]

Tom:

Would you re-think some of your ?? on holes like 17 at Cypress through changes that are possible (like, getting rid of/trimming the tree in the fairway)?

It seems there are some ? holes that are the product of irreversable design elements -- Doak in the CG thinks one of my favorite holes at Scotland's Boat of Garten is goofy because it features a massive gully in the middle of the fairway. To each his own, and that's how assessing holes will always work. But -- it seems some ? holes could be improved, while others not.

To cite an example from the other side of the coin, I've read some folks who think the Road Hole at TOC is (somewhat) diminished because you don't hit over real railroad shacks anymore.

Thoughts?

[Tom Huckaby]

Phil:

I only gave the ?? for 17 at CPC because the little grove of trees does make it play so strangely, and some don't like that.  I personally love it, thus also gave it the !.  But I also believe there's no way those ever get cut down... heck if they die I bet they get replaced... so I don't see the changes being as "possible" as it would otherwise seem.  That is yes it could be done, but I really really doubt it ever will.

I'm also not sure why this matters... my assessments are based on how the hole PLAYS, not how it is designed.  If Doak did it differently - that is based it on design - than DQ me from this as I am far from qualified to opine.

TH

[Bob_Huntley]

I'd help out with ranking holes, but I'm busy with a project ranking all the days of my life. My problem is it seems every day there is a new day that causes all the days to be recalculated. Currently my favorite day is a toss-up between the days my two children were born, the day my divorce was final, the day of my first hit of acid,  and the night I spent with two hookers named Good 'n' Plenty in Reno. I'm having a hard time coming up with a top day from those three.

Cheers,
Dan King

Dan,

That has to be one of the frankest and funniest self appraisals I have read on this site. I give it the maximum three stars.

Bob

[Dan King]

I accidentally reposted my last article, so now I got to come up with something to say since I can't seem to delete anymore.

I go to all that trouble to build a cool table so the cells line up, and people make a big deal about Good 'n' Plenty. :-)

Cheers,
Dan King

I have certainly known more men destroyed by the desire to have a wife and child and to keep them in comfort than I have seen destroyed by drink and harlots.
 --William Butler Yeats

[Tom_Doak]

Dan Kelly:

When I was about 15, I tried rating each golf hole individually and adding up the results, but it never seemed to come out right -- some courses were more than the sum of their parts, and others less.  I believe that more firmly today than I did 30 years ago ... the elements of variety and of "flow" are part of the equation for a great course, too.

John Goodman:

Thanks for looking up the various hole rankings in The Confidential Guide; I'm at Narita Airport right now and don't have the book on me.  After reading your notes I am quite curious how consistent I am with such rankings ... and since I just played Kawana yesterday and I ranked all of its holes in the book, I thought I would try again for comparison's sake.  Here's my take this time around ... no hole # equals no ! or ? marks.

2.  !
3.  !
7.  !
11.  !
12.  !
13.  !
14.  !
15.  !
17.  !

I suppose I could have given #7 a !?! ... a really cool par-4 with some funky mowing lines.  Or maybe a ! to one of the front side par threes, #5 or #8.  But what did I do last time?

[Padraig Dooley]

Tom

Have the Confidental Guide in front of me, the ratings for Kawana are

1 !
2 !
3 !
6 !
7 !
11 !
12 !
13 !!
14 !
15 !!
17 !

1,6,13,15 lost an !, and none gained one.

[Tom_Doak]

I'm getting even tougher in my old age, I guess.  15 is spectacular to look at but not interesting enough to be a !! hole.

[Sean Walsh]

I stopped before I got to everyone else's ranking so here goes (I don't think TOC has anything resembling a poor hole and I'm probably more generous than many)

* Good
** V. Good
**** Outstanding

1  *
2  ***
3  **
4  ** (close to ***)
5  **
6  **
7  ** (nearly ***)
8  *
9  *
10*
11***
12**
13*** (best hole on the course from a caddying perspective)
14***
15*  (nearly **)
16***
17***
18**

[cary lichtenstein]

I'd help out with ranking holes, but I'm busy with a project ranking all the days of my life. My problem is it seems every day there is a new day that causes all the days to be recalculated. Currently my favorite day is a toss-up between the days my two children were born, the day my divorce was final, the day of my first hit of acid,  and the night I spent with two hookers named Good 'n' Plenty in Reno. I'm having a hard time coming up with a top day from those three.

Cheers,
Dan King

Dan,

That has to be one of the frankest and funniest self appraisals I have read on this site. I give it the maximum three stars.

Bob

LOL

[Rich Goodale]

Rich --

You're an expert on the Old Course.

Care to rank/rate the holes (w/ a notation system of your choosing -- possibly involving emoticons  !)?

Dan

Dan

Firstly, I'm hono(u)red that you chose a post to me to break your emoticon fast.  How does it feel?  Liberated?  Somewhat tainted?  Regardless, hang in there buckaroo.

Secondly, I'm hardly an expert on the Old Course, but I am staying in two Holiday Inn Expresses over the next 2-3 weeks in my travels through northeast America, so maybe I will be soon....

Thirdly, I tend to agree with Tom's CD 31 Flavo(u)rs rankings for TOC, which incidentally also tend to support Jason's thesis on the other thread that the inward half is much "better" than the outward half.

Here's my opinion, using the Dan Kelly (TM) emoticon scale:

1--
2--
3--
4--
5--
6--
7--
8--
9--
10--
11--
12--
13--
14--
15--
16--
17--
18--

Hope this helps

Rich

[Dan Kelly]

Rich --

You're an expert on the Old Course.

Care to rank/rate the holes (w/ a notation system of your choosing -- possibly involving emoticons  !)?

Dan

Dan

Firstly, I'm hono(u)red that you chose a post to me to break your emoticon fast.  How does it feel?  Liberated?  Somewhat tainted?  Regardless, hang in there buckaroo.

Secondly, I'm hardly an expert on the Old Course, but I am staying in two Holiday Inn Expresses over the next 2-3 weeks in my travels through northeast America, so maybe I will be soon....

Thirdly, I tend to agree with Tom's CD 31 Flavo(u)rs rankings for TOC, which incidentally also tend to support Jason's thesis on the other thread that the inward half is much "better" than the outward half.

Here's my opinion, using the Dan Kelly (TM) emoticon scale:

1--
2--
3--
4--
5--
6--
7--
8--
9--
10--
11--
12--
13--
14--
15--
16--
17--
18--

Hope this helps

Rich

Rich --

It helps more than you can possibly know. 

Happy Fourth of July!

Tainted  (but, more important, liberated   ),
Dan

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