[Jim Nugent]

Adam, sounds like TOC in that respect. 

[Kyle Henderson]

How would Ballyneal handle the PGA tour game?  I know it was not designed for that.  From the tips, though, on a typically windy day, with tough pins, how would the top pro's likely do?

Robert Mercer Deruntz raved about the course.  So doesn't sound like it would be a pushover. 

There's a great anecdote about Davis Love's time there. Perhaps Paul C. can confirm? Supposedly, he called the wife to ask if they could push back supper so he could play more. Denied!

My caddie stated that Davis was a few shots over par the first time around, following that with a smooth 66 with a little course knowledge in his bag. He also had fair weather, reportedly. I assume he played from the extreme rear of the back tees.

[Adam Clayman]

Kyle, Paul C. needs to confirm that one. I was under the impression it was not a full round, let alone a 66. The CR is 67, I believe.

Look forward to the closers and your review.

There are teeing grounds on 15 I didn't know existed until about a month ago.

[Kyle Henderson]

There are teeing grounds on 15 I didn't know existed until about a month ago.

The one way back to the right (237)? That's the first one I played, followed by the far left tee, which is somewhat shorter but nearly blind to the green. How I love options!

[Kyle Henderson]

Hole #14: “362 yards”

The 14th is a short par 4 that should be ripe for the picking. Conversely, bogey or worse awaits anyone guilty of carelessness. A small bunker sits on the ideal line in the middle of the fairway. While a drive of 260 yards will clear this sandy pit, stiff headwinds may suggest another strategy. Down wind, a long-hitter can pound one over the large blowout bunker (300 yards to carry) on the left up near to the green, but anything pulled slightly further left will be buried in the scrub. In other words, as with the rest of the course, variant weather conditions ensure that one will never succumb to boredom or repetitiveness through the course of multiple rounds.

From the front of the “340 yard” teeing area, the view of the green is obscured by the large blowout on the left. The shadows demonstrate the massive scale of the bordering dunes.


The Ballyneal website provides a slightly higher vantage point from which the green and central bunker are more easily perceived.


Though small, this bunker can have significant influence on the player’s shot selection off of the tee. The fall away fronting the green is clearly seen from here. The drop off behind the green is not. As such, distance control is vital from this angle, as anything long or short will be repelled away from the putting surface. Moreover, at 29 yards of depth, this is one of the smaller greens on the course.


Shying away from the dunes can leave one with a tricky recovery from the deep swales right of the green. This hole is cut in the flattest portion of the surface.


At one of the farthest points from the clubhouse, and with few if any players on the course, the quiet solitude is arresting.


From the website: A last look back. How I ache for a course closer to home with even an ounce of those fairway contours.

[Tom_Doak]

At first glance some would dismiss this as another "breather" hole, especially since (for my game, at least) the best approach is to hit a lay-up tee shot short of the center fairway bunker.  However, it seems to tempt people to try and overpower it, and most of them live to regret the decision -- even though many will try and overpower the hole again the next time.  I've seen a lot of sixes here after big drives.

Besides the second and ninth, this was the other hole which had to be massaged significantly to make the routing work.  Creating the green site involved quite a bit of cutting to enlarge a small gap in the dunes.  We could have built the green straight on as a driveable par-4, but that would have meant a REALLY long walk to the next tee, and I couldn't stomach that break in play at this point in the round.

[Kyle Henderson]

At first glance some would dismiss this as another "breather" hole, especially since (for my game, at least) the best approach is to hit a lay-up tee shot short of the center fairway bunker.  However, it seems to tempt people to try and overpower it, and most of them live to regret the decision -- even though many will try and overpower the hole again the next time.  I've seen a lot of sixes here after big drives.

Besides the second and ninth, this was the other hole which had to be massaged significantly to make the routing work.  Creating the green site involved quite a bit of cutting to enlarge a small gap in the dunes.  We could have built the green straight on as a driveable par-4, but that would have meant a REALLY long walk to the next tee, and I couldn't stomach that break in play at this point in the round.

This surprises me. To my eye, the greensite for #15 appeared to require more work to achieve the final product and to connect #14 with #16.

[Adam Clayman]

Dismissing a breather hole is like hating a donut because it has a hole. The 14th has the flattest green on the course and a relatively flat accessible LZ right of the center fwy bunker. Compared to the previous holes, and the closer yet to come, I relish 14 for it's ebb like aspects. I don't dismiss it I appreciate it. Those who fail to see the qualities and consider it mundane are the one's who likely will let their guard down and score higher than they expected.

The 14th also has one of the few sucker pins at BN. The right side pin is a foolish pin to seek.

[John Kirk]

Dismissing a breather hole is like hating a donut because it has a hole. The 14th has the flattest green on the course and a relatively flat accessible LZ right of the center fwy bunker. Compared to the previous holes, and the closer yet to come, I relish 14 for it's ebb like aspects. I don't dismiss it I appreciate it. Those who fail to see the qualities and consider it mundane are the one's who likely will let their guard down and score higher than they expected.

The 14th also has one of the few sucker pins at BN. The right side pin is a foolish pin to seek.

Interesting.  I see the "sucker" back right pin as less dangerous than the front and left pins here.  Miss long and/or left and getting down in two is usually tricky.

I always play this hole for the flat spot just short of the center bunker, unless I'm just fooling around.  I believe this strategy maximizes my chances when I miss, and it's almost always less than a 7-iron approach, usually a gap or pitching wedge, often punched into a quartering right-to-left wind.

I think this is the smallest green on the course.  I don't necessarily ascribe to the breather hole concept, for any golf hole.   Another hole in the journey around the course.

[Jason Hines]

I am looking at the yardage book to try and figure out the best way to describe the pin location that we played on our first round and I believe it was back left, on the NE corner of the green, right on a ridgeline.  Pitching and putting to that pin location was both brutal and fun.

A playing partner always tried to drive the green and would get close on several occasions.  My play was at or to the right of the center bunker leaving an easy or strong PW.   I won that hole 3 out of 4 times, I did not see any breather holes when I was there….

[Jeff Tang]

I found 14 to a difficult hole.  I couldn't get comfortable on it, and in my four rounds made three doubles and a par.  I found the front of the green tough to deal with, and electing to go right of the middle bunker off the tee I left myself with (while short) an uphill stance into the green which was also playing into the wind.  I never decided to play short of the bunker but after reading the post of others here I am thinking that may have been the best play.

[Kyle Henderson]

#15

Six different teeing areas are offered on this par 3, ranging from 237 yards down to around 150 yards. Walking from the 14th green, the first tee box one reaches is at the “195 yard” mark and is set well to the left of the other tees, leaving the player mostly blind to the green. Moving farther to the right, a bowl that houses the 15th green complex opens up to reveal the target area. The flexibility offered in terms of angle and distance from tee to tee ensures the hole will remain playable and fresh under most weather conditions.



A close-up view displays the steepness of the slope leading to the green. Bunkers guard the front shoulders and right rear of the green complex.


This amateur left his tee shot well short of the front right bunker, and was forced to play a blind recovery. A rare sight at Ballyneal, other golfers are visible over the player’s shoulder on 16th fairway.


Looking back towards the tee, one can see that the bowl will feed slightly miss-hit shots onto the green from the front and the sides. Approaches that carry too deeply my not hold the surface as the green feeds to the left rear corner.


A photograph from the Ballyneal website illustrates the arrangement of teeing areas in the top right quadrant of the image, including the blind tees seen at the far right. The putting surface is angled from front right to back left (43 yards deep, plus an ample ring of surrounding fairway cut) along the line of play. Putts will often be from one shelf to another, leaving many a knee-knocker for par (or worse).

[Kyle Henderson]

Mr. Doak,

How early in the design process was #15 discovered/incorporated into the routing?  Did you decide to create a concave green complex to set this hole apart from the other par 3s? Was the blind tee considered initially or did that idea come later?

Thank you in advance!

[Adam Clayman]

Kyle, There's approx 8-12 feet of fill under that green. Extrapolate the dune's grade downward, and you'll feel just how steep they actually were. If you look way over to the left of the green you can almost make out the area where they pulled the fill from.

Interesting your description of concave since the green's interior is also convex with the diagonal ridge running through the right 3/4.

[Jerry Kluger]

I think in some ways 15 plays like a punchbowl.  They can hide the pin behind the hill on the left side and you can bounce the ball off either hill to get to it.  It was hidden there when I played it one day last week and we could not see the ball land - we got up to the hole and it was about 15 feet past the pin.  Another day the pin was on the right side and I bounced one off the hill on the right and on to the green - didn't come too close but I was putting.  It will also kick down to the green off the hill in front. Fact is that it is a long hole that can play into the wind and it is nice that you don't have to carry it all the way in order to make it to the putting surface but if you don't hit enough club and push or pull your shot, it will die in one of the side hills. 

[Kyle Henderson]

Interesting your description of concave since the green's interior is also convex with the diagonal ridge running through the right 3/4.

I didn't say the green itself was concave, I said the green COMPLEX was concave. Hole # 3 does have a few "containment" dunes dunes around the green, but they are set well back. The surroundings of the 15th green are much more likely to gather shots onto the green itself.

[Peter Pallotta]

Kyle, There's approx 8-12 feet of fill under that green. Extrapolate the dune's grade downward, and you'll feel just how steep they actually were...

It's neat what the eye sees, Adam, and why. 

It seems that when a golf hole is constructed with flair and expertise, the eye might well extrapolate from the dune's sharp downward grade, but yet still assume that blessed nature had simply decided to abruptly soften the grade so as to (one day) allow for the discovery of a wonderful green site.

That's the "what". But no matter how often Tom D and others have explained it, I still can't understand the "why"...

Peter     

[Sean_A]

I keep coming back to this thread hoping for something new.  Man alive if cool stuff doesn't keep popping up.  If this isn't the best course built in the last I don't know how many years I want to see pix of that other course.  To coin a rather course, but apt phrase, I'm gobsmacked!

Ciao 

[Kalen Braley]

Sean,

Thats cool, I've always like GodSmack too!! 

[Daryl David]

I keep coming back to this thread hoping for something new.  Man alive if cool stuff doesn't keep popping up.  If this isn't the best course built in the last I don't know how many years I want to see pix of that other course.  To coin a rather course, but apt phrase, I'm gobsmacked!

Ciao 

Sean,

Wait till you see the next 2 holes.  Your gob will be further smacked!

[Sean_A]

Sean,

Thats cool, I've always like GodSmack too!! 

Jeepers

I haven't heard such a harsh name since I saw Drunk on the Pope's Blood.  A terrible band which opened for The Circle Jerks and the Ramones once - I think at St Andrews Hall in Detroit.  I was there for the relatively rather mild mannered Ramones.

Ciao

[TEPaul]

I have not looked at this thread before and these photos. I'm completely stunned---completely!

In the back of my mind I've always considered "lines" in architecture---primarily aesthetically---"lines" in the sense of how everything near, medium and far twists and turns together. The "lines" all over that golf course are just incredible.

Tom Doak, what can I say?

[Tom_Doak]

Tom P:

You can say thanks to all the guys that worked out there.  There were about 8 of them working on the course thinking about all those lines you're looking at and how they overlapped with other lines and how to frizz the edges of the native grass so that the lines in the foreground were blurred ... mostly Bruce Hepner who ran the job for me, but we had everybody from Schneider and Slawnik and Urbina to Kye Goalby and Dan Proctor and Ron Farris out there at some point in construction, and a couple of really talented interns, too.

Adam:

I know we filled #15 green a bit, but I don't think it was eight feet and it certainly wasn't 12.  The back left part did come up a lot ... and it still runs away to that side pretty good.

[TEPaul]

"There were about 8 of them working on the course thinking about all those lines you're looking at and how they overlapped with other lines and how to frizz the edges of the native grass so that the lines in the foreground were blurred ..."


Jeeesus, don't tempt me---you know I'm heavily into the generation and popularizing of words and terms. Is it possible that golf course architecture has finally broken through the constraints of just good old fashioned "naturalism" and has finally launched into a new age of "frizzing"?

I will not rest until the seventh definition of "Frizz" is---a golf architecture application around the edges of native grasses that blur the "lines" in the foreground, developed by Tom Doak and Renaissance Golf in 2008.

[John Kirk]

Club selection is important here.   In general, you don't want to be past the hole, especially for right side pins.    I use a shorter club than you might imagine.  Playing with a slight wind at my back from the 237 tee, it can sometimes be as little as a 5 iron (180-185 club at sea level), enough to carry the ridge and bound down onto the green.

Although it is the longest par 3 on the course, my stats say that it is the easiest or second easiest par 3, along with hole #3.  The punchbowl effect in action.

There is a true birdie pin on this hole, the front pin, about -16 from the middle.  Hit the right club +/- 5-7 yards left or right for a short birdie putt.  There are also two or three very difficult pins here, especially middle right on the ridge.

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