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Doug Wright

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Re: BALLYNEAL: IN WORDS AND PICTURES (1st-12th holes now posted)
« Reply #125 on: July 15, 2008, 03:23:56 PM »
I really like the 12th hole a lot. It illustrates the multitude of strategic options available at Ballyneal (as John Mayhugh says, the "line of charm" is a smallish area very near the nasty left hand fairway bunkers. And what a green! Amazingly bold features create all sorts of opportunities for creative play that can make you look heroic or foolish.
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Wyatt Halliday

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Re: BALLYNEAL: IN WORDS AND PICTURES (1st-12th holes now posted)
« Reply #126 on: July 15, 2008, 05:02:40 PM »
Well said Doug. #12 is a microcosm of the architecture represented at Ballyneal. The yawning fairway, waves in the green, and endless options from the tee (Whether going for it - or laying up) embody what is encountered from the first tee to the final green.

It is the only course I have ever played where the sum and the parts are on equal footing.

Doug,
I remember quite vividly your remarkable off balance shot from one those nasty left hand bunkers, and the heroic 90ft. snake that played peek-a-boo.... Too much fun!

John Kirk

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Re: BALLYNEAL: IN WORDS AND PICTURES (1st-12th holes now posted)
« Reply #127 on: July 15, 2008, 05:56:53 PM »
Doug had a putt from just off the back left of the green to a front right pin, which is a double breaker over a very large ridge, perhaps 4 feet in height.  Doug left it a few inches short right on line.

One wise ass in the group was heard saying, "Hit it!".

Doug Wright

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Re: BALLYNEAL: IN WORDS AND PICTURES (1st-12th holes now posted)
« Reply #128 on: July 15, 2008, 07:07:21 PM »
Doug had a putt from just off the back left of the green to a front right pin, which is a double breaker over a very large ridge, perhaps 4 feet in height.  Doug left it a few inches short right on line.

One wise ass in the group was heard saying, "Hit it!".

John,

Never up, never in! That one goes into my top 10 most fun (and best) putts ever.
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Adam Clayman

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Re: BALLYNEAL: IN WORDS AND PICTURES (1st-12th holes now posted)
« Reply #129 on: July 16, 2008, 12:17:17 AM »
This sequence of holes (10 thru 13) is key to Ballyneal. After the front nine's sequence of holes,  the golfer should wonder how the heck can the back be better? These holes set the stage, flowing towards the finale. But first...a little ebb.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Scott Szabo

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Re: BALLYNEAL: IN WORDS AND PICTURES (1st-12th holes now posted)
« Reply #130 on: July 16, 2008, 08:57:03 AM »
Adam,

You do have a way with words!

Scott
"So your man hit it into a fairway bunker, hit the wrong side of the green, and couldn't hit a hybrid off a sidehill lie to take advantage of his length? We apologize for testing him so thoroughly." - Tom Doak, 6/29/10

John Kirk

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Re: BALLYNEAL: IN WORDS AND PICTURES (1st-12th holes now posted)
« Reply #131 on: July 16, 2008, 10:14:55 AM »
Scott,

Adam's words, like poetry, ebb and flow like a gentle mountain stream meandering through the back nine of the...oops, wrong course.

I will get back to you regarding the other hole-by-hole scores, but at this point, I believe #9 also has the lowest score relative to par of any hole.

Jed Peters

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Re: BALLYNEAL: IN WORDS AND PICTURES (1st-12th holes now posted)
« Reply #132 on: July 16, 2008, 10:26:48 AM »
Kyle:

Why do you continue to use the term "tiger tees"? Is that what Ballyneal calls them, or a moniker for the "back" tees?

Kyle Henderson

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Re: BALLYNEAL: IN WORDS AND PICTURES (1st-12th holes now posted)
« Reply #133 on: July 16, 2008, 10:29:25 AM »
Scott,

Adam's words, like poetry, ebb and flow like a gentle mountain stream meandering through the back nine of the...oops, wrong course.

I will get back to you regarding the other hole-by-hole scores, but at this point, I believe #9 also has the lowest score relative to par of any hole.

Mr. Kirk,
You must be teeing off from what is "traditionally" the back tee on #10.  ;)

Seriously though, with the option of teeing up wherever you like on any given hole, do you only input scores earned from the back of the rear tees? I would think that variant weather conditions might also skew results (though obviously there is validity to incorporating the wind's influence).

I don't (and never will) have anything close to your volume of experience at Ballyneal, but I can't imagine that I would have better scores relative to par on #9 than #4 or #16.

Perhaps after I've finished my hole-by-hole expose' you can provide us with your overall ranking of the holes from most to least difficult (relative to par). You needn't disclose your actual averages.

Cheers,
Kyle
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Kyle Henderson

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Re: BALLYNEAL: IN WORDS AND PICTURES (1st-12th holes now posted)
« Reply #134 on: July 16, 2008, 10:29:55 AM »
Kyle:

Why do you continue to use the term "tiger tees"? Is that what Ballyneal calls them, or a moniker for the "back" tees?

Moniker.
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Kyle Henderson

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Re: BALLYNEAL: IN WORDS AND PICTURES (1st-13th holes now posted)
« Reply #135 on: July 16, 2008, 12:30:08 PM »
Hole #13 “510, 396, 380 or 330 yards”

As 13th hole plays much differently from each starting distance, I included the yardage from the marker in each teeing area. Four separate central hazards combine with three more at the periphery to create a puzzler that requires careful decision-making from tee to green. The fairway contours are among the largest on the course (which is saying something). Consequently, there will always be some uncertainty as to where one’s tee shot will come to rest. Add the elevation of the tee box and a little wind into the mix and it becomes very difficult to trust your shot and execute it properly.

From afar, the 13th hole is a breathtaking example of naturalistic architecture. The seemingly endless surrounds create the illusion of a confined playing corridor.



A closer look yields a more accurate sense of the expansive character that defines the 13th from bow to stern. From the “510/396” yard tees, the distance to clear each hazard is 320/247 yards (near left edge), 470/398 (far left edge), 330/257 yards (left center of fairway), 408/335 (center fairway), 500/386 (greenside right), and 402/328 (pair of bunkers at right center) yards respectively. The shadows in the fairway illustrate the depth of its dells. The approaches are semi-blind from down below, and also generally from a downhill or uphill lie.


A large swale bottoms out 160 yards from the green’s center.


The pit on the left bottoms out with 130 yards to go. The bunker seen on the right is much bigger than it looks, facing toward the green on the opposite side. The flag is visible behind and slightly left of greenside hazard.


Looking back, the “reverse-facing” fairway trap is evident. The green runs from front left to back right along the line of play.


The right rear of the green is guarded by humps and bumps that are not perceptible from the fairway.


Though lying many miles from any ocean, the 13th hole is a study in links golf at its finest.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2008, 12:32:00 PM by Kyle Henderson »
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Scott Szabo

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Re: BALLYNEAL: IN WORDS AND PICTURES (1st-13th holes now posted)
« Reply #136 on: July 16, 2008, 05:13:56 PM »
Kyle,

Isn't there a teeing area in the 420 or 430 yard range?  I'm sure Adam and John would be able to answer this, but it seems like we typically play a hole in that range.  I typically have about 160 or so in, and while I'm not a long hitter, I wouldn't have that distance in from a 396 yard hole.

The 510 yard teeing area is quite a site to behold.  I'm not sure what the carry to the fairway is from that tee, but anything but a perfect hit will not reach it for me.  Of course, those that typically play from that tee will likely hit the ball much further than I do.

The ideal line is on the left side of the fairway, between the first centerline bunker and the bunker outside the fairway - leaving a straightforward shot into the green.  The play to the right side of the bunker is much easier, but leaves a much more intimidating shot into the green - allowing access to only the left side of the green without a pronounced fade.

A great hole indeed, but I must admit that #12 is still my favorite at Ballyneal.
"So your man hit it into a fairway bunker, hit the wrong side of the green, and couldn't hit a hybrid off a sidehill lie to take advantage of his length? We apologize for testing him so thoroughly." - Tom Doak, 6/29/10

Kyle Henderson

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Re: BALLYNEAL: IN WORDS AND PICTURES (1st-13th holes now posted)
« Reply #137 on: July 16, 2008, 05:49:48 PM »
Kyle,

Isn't there a teeing area in the 420 or 430 yard range?  I'm sure Adam and John would be able to answer this, but it seems like we typically play a hole in that range.  I typically have about 160 or so in, and while I'm not a long hitter, I wouldn't have that distance in from a 396 yard hole.

The 510 yard teeing area is quite a site to behold.  I'm not sure what the carry to the fairway is from that tee, but anything but a perfect hit will not reach it for me.  Of course, those that typically play from that tee will likely hit the ball much further than I do.

The ideal line is on the left side of the fairway, between the first centerline bunker and the bunker outside the fairway - leaving a straightforward shot into the green.  The play to the right side of the bunker is much easier, but leaves a much more intimidating shot into the green - allowing access to only the left side of the green without a pronounced fade.

A great hole indeed, but I must admit that #12 is still my favorite at Ballyneal.

-I listed every tee box available,  according to the yardage book. However, the "396" box may extend as far back as 420, but I think the 12th green may get in the way around that mark. I don't recall with any specificity...

-The left side of the fairway does provide a better angle into the green, but if the pin is left, I'd prefer to be in the relatively smoother territory on the right.
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Tom_Doak

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Re: BALLYNEAL: IN WORDS AND PICTURES (1st-13th holes now posted)
« Reply #138 on: July 16, 2008, 07:22:00 PM »
Kyle:

One of the problems with "free flowing tee boxes" is that sometimes they choose funny places from which to take their measurements.  I think the back of the "normal" tee on #13 is somewhere around 420 or 425 yards.

Bruce Leland

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Re: BALLYNEAL: IN WORDS AND PICTURES (1st-13th holes now posted)
« Reply #139 on: July 16, 2008, 10:57:52 PM »
This may be out of place with all of the previous commentary but I'm almost salivating at the prospect of playing this coursel.  Absolutely stunning photos and commentary.  I've yet to play Sand Hills and would say that Sutton Bay is the closest thing to Ballyneal that I've played in the States.  I will make a trip to play this golf course in the near future.  Thanks for the inspiration!
"The mystique of Muirfield lingers on. So does the memory of Carnoustie's foreboding. So does the scenic wonder of Turnberry and the haunting incredibility of Prestwick, and the pleasant deception of Troon. But put them altogether and St. Andrew's can play their low ball for atmosphere." Dan Jenkins

Doug Wright

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Re: BALLYNEAL: IN WORDS AND PICTURES (1st-13th holes now posted)
« Reply #140 on: July 17, 2008, 05:19:24 PM »
I had the pleasure of playing my second shot BACKWARDS from the pot bunker in the left center of the 13th fairway. The ball was hard against the left side face of the bunker and there was simply no other way to go. I have only had to do this a couple other times as I recall, and that was in greenside bunkers in Scotland. It's actually a difficult shot because you don't want to hit the ball too far the wrong way!  Rub O The Green and more unique Ballyneal fun.
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Wyatt Halliday

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Re: BALLYNEAL: IN WORDS AND PICTURES (1st-13th holes now posted)
« Reply #141 on: July 17, 2008, 06:06:27 PM »
Doug,

I only wish I could take my medicine like you did. There were those three consecutive shots from the middle FW bunker on #8 that I should have played out backwards. "Stubborn" is what my wife likes to call it.

If there is a more enjoyable place to make a 9 on a short Par 5, please tell me where.

Scott Szabo

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Re: BALLYNEAL: IN WORDS AND PICTURES (1st-13th holes now posted)
« Reply #142 on: July 17, 2008, 08:59:08 PM »
Kyle,

Thanks for taking the time to do this - I wish more would be willing to do this kind of exercise.  It is great for all to actually see a few views of the holes and hear commentary from those who have experienced the greatness that is Ballyneal.

I've only been on this site for a while, but I do believe Mr. Pazin is the one that started this with his tribute to Oakmont a year or so ago.

Scott
"So your man hit it into a fairway bunker, hit the wrong side of the green, and couldn't hit a hybrid off a sidehill lie to take advantage of his length? We apologize for testing him so thoroughly." - Tom Doak, 6/29/10

Kyle Henderson

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Re: BALLYNEAL: IN WORDS AND PICTURES (1st-13th holes now posted)
« Reply #143 on: July 18, 2008, 01:21:19 AM »
Kyle,

Thanks for taking the time to do this - I wish more would be willing to do this kind of exercise.  It is great for all to actually see a few views of the holes and hear commentary from those who have experienced the greatness that is Ballyneal.

I've only been on this site for a while, but I do believe Mr. Pazin is the one that started this with his tribute to Oakmont a year or so ago.

Scott

My pleasure. The Oakmont thread was excellent, but I don't believe it was the first of such posts. I was a little hesitant to go ahead with this endeavor, as there was already an excellent profile available on this very website. In the end, I felt that I had too many personal images and details that might be valued by others in the treehouse. I hope I've been able to paint a clearer picture of the Ballyneal experience. It's been great to hear from seasoned members and especially from the architect himself.

Judging by "Art Fuller"'s "Official Directory - Golf Course Photo Tours" thread, there are many to be thanked for contributing to GCA.com. In fact, if not for this website, I would have never experienced Ballyneal at all. I'm just trying to match their efforts as best I can.

Cheers,
Kyle
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

John Mayhugh

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Re: BALLYNEAL: IN WORDS AND PICTURES (1st-13th holes now posted)
« Reply #144 on: July 18, 2008, 08:43:23 AM »
Kyle:

One of the problems with "free flowing tee boxes" is that sometimes they choose funny places from which to take their measurements.  I think the back of the "normal" tee on #13 is somewhere around 420 or 425 yards.
I noticed this with my yardage book. We played the hole from around 420 yards most rounds.

One of the great things about not having tee markers is it frees you up to bounce around teeing areas w/o giving it much thought.  If I had the chance to play at Ballyneal more often, there is no telling what teeing areas I might try.

Jim Nugent

Re: BALLYNEAL: IN WORDS AND PICTURES (1st-13th holes now posted)
« Reply #145 on: July 18, 2008, 09:23:10 AM »
How would Ballyneal handle the PGA tour game?  I know it was not designed for that.  From the tips, though, on a typically windy day, with tough pins, how would the top pro's likely do?

Robert Mercer Deruntz raved about the course.  So doesn't sound like it would be a pushover. 

John Kirk

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Re: BALLYNEAL: IN WORDS AND PICTURES (1st-13th holes now posted)
« Reply #146 on: July 18, 2008, 09:34:24 AM »
The 13th hole tee box adjacent to the 12th green is 420 yards, and it is my favorite tee box.  The back tee box, at around 510 yards, requires a significant carry off the tee (maybe 210-220 yards), and takes all of the fairway bunkers out of play (on the tee shot).

I usually aim down the center, though I will sometimes aim at the little pot bunker, with the intention of drawing the ball to the left side.  The left side of the fairway ofers a much better angle to right side pins behind the greenside bunker.

I regularly have a second shot from a severely uphill lie.

Mike Policano

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Re: BALLYNEAL: IN WORDS AND PICTURES (1st-13th holes now posted)
« Reply #147 on: July 18, 2008, 09:54:22 AM »
John,

One of the great features of the tees is the width of the tee positions relative to each other.  For example,
on the first hole the left tee box makes the hole a dog leg left over the yucca etc. while the right tee boxes make the hole a straight hole with no carry.

On the par 4 2nd, the shorter tee boxes give you a semi blind tee shot while the back tee at 490 gives you a great view of the hole.

The par 3 third, has very good width so that you can make the hole semi blind by setting up with the top of a dune obscuring your view of the flag.

The par 3 fifth has probably 25 yard of width between teeing areas giving you very different angles which can make some pin locations very difficult.

The par 4 sixth has width like the first hole.  You can go left to a blind tee shot yielding a slight dogleg left or you can go right and straight on.

The par 3 eleventh has 7 tee boxes.  Although you swear there was only three upon recollection.  That is a benefit of tee boxes that don't look like tee boxes and have no markers.  Again the width gives great variety in angles to the green.

The par 4 thirteenth should always be played at different lengths on repeat plays.  That way the various centerline bunkers come into play differently making one carefully plan there attack on the tee.

Finally as for tee box width, the par 4 17th has about 30 yards of width yielding very different angles. 

In summary, the tee box width makes repeat plays very interesting with different angles.  Add in the great movement in the fairways and the internal contours in the greens and you almost have a different hole.

Cheers 

Adam Clayman

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Re: BALLYNEAL: IN WORDS AND PICTURES (1st-13th holes now posted)
« Reply #148 on: July 18, 2008, 10:25:42 AM »
How would Ballyneal handle the PGA tour game?  I know it was not designed for that.  From the tips, though, on a typically windy day, with tough pins, how would the top pro's likely do?

Robert Mercer Deruntz raved about the course.  So doesn't sound like it would be a pushover. 

Jim, The elasticity of the design is truly what makes it great. No matter the ability everyone has the opportunity to be creative, get wicked bounces and have fun. How would the pros do? They would go low on a good day and not on a  bad. The best courses allow for those who put it all together to score well. This design aspect is a ship never to sail for those who only appreciate an Archies ability to deny opportunities.

There's a great anecdote about Davis Love's time there. Perhaps Paul C. can confirm? Supposedly, he called the wife to ask if they could push back supper so he could play more. Denied!

Mike, Sorry to have missed you. Still striking the hickories?
« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 12:01:16 PM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Kyle Henderson

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Re: BALLYNEAL: IN WORDS AND PICTURES (1st-13th holes now posted)
« Reply #149 on: July 18, 2008, 10:30:31 AM »
The back tee box, at around 510 yards, requires a significant carry off the tee (maybe 210-220 yards), and takes all of the fairway bunkers out of play (on the tee shot).

With a 5 mph breeze at my back, I was past the left center bunker from exactly 510. As I recall, the drop in elevation combined with firm turf result in a hole that plays much shorter than the given yardage, pending weather conditions. Am I mistaken?

Also, following in your formidable shoes, I was 2/2 in the uphill lie department on #13. But, again, I'm sure the day's fairway speeds had much to do with this.
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

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