[Adam Clayman]

Two stories both involving the back bunkers. The first involves the elusive Neil Regan who from 107 yards, adjacent to the bunkers edge, turned and asked if he could use a putter. Yup, he hit about 127 into the back bunker. In his defense the course had just been topped dressed and the expectation was for less of a bounce.
The other was our legendary Caddiemaster Garrett Gordon. Having partnered with the double G before, I reminded him to use the 250 swing. He knocked it to just before the front of the green where it bounded over and into the back.

Let this be a lesson to those who place formulas on rear bunkers.

[Eric Pevoto]

I'm enjoying all the photos and conversation on Ballyneal.  There's a lotta love for this place and the site looks one of a kind.  Thanks Kyle, Tim, Adam, Ran, etc. etc.

Echoing Tom Paul, through the first 8-9 holes, so far the majority/all look bowled and "through" the dunes, rather than up and over and/or perched.

Is this a consideration to wind?  Water conservation?   

[Richard Boult]

Kyle, just loving these photos and related discussion... Gawd, how I want to go there!

BTW, here's a nice slide show of Ballyneal by Rob Babcock of Golf Adventure Guides and paintings by Joshua Smith to help compliment this thread:

Ballyneal Photo Gallery by Rob Babcock

Ballyneal Paintings by Joshua Smith

[Adam Clayman]

Eric, Your not the first to notice that from photos. However, The photos do not cut it in this regard. There are very few areas that play like a typical bowl. Most greens and fwys have drop offs and draws into and out of places a bowl would never allow.

I'm curious, Have you (or Tom) ever played a Doak course other than Pac Dunes?

One of the major strengths, of the art of this design, is the variety created on what seems like similar terrain throughout.

[Michael Robin]

Hey Adam, I was standing on the green when Garrett launched that missle. We were actually on the front third of the green, the ball flew into the middle and one hopped into the back bunker. Garrett is literally the longest hitter of a golf ball I have ever seen. He drove 12 and 14 on the same day I played with him for my first round at Ballyneal. He made 2 on 12 and 6 on 14.

Great job with all of this Kyle. So glad you enjoyed yourself at this magical place.

[Kyle Henderson]

Although this hole seems tough to Mr. Henderson, I am keeping hole-by-hole stats of (most of) my rounds, and hole #9 is presently the clear leader as the easiest par 4, with a scoring average of 4.03. 

It's not a hole that will give fits to a scratch player, but do you really think it's a push over? I think it's a pretty decent test for a hole of that length, though I only have two rounds of experience to draw upon.

[Kyle Henderson]

Great job with all of this Kyle. So glad you enjoyed yourself at this magical place.

Thank you, my friend.  I'm just trying to do the course justice, given it's high quality and the extreme generosity that allowed me to enjoy it first hand.

[Jim Nugent]

How much does altitude affect distance at Ballyneal? 

[Adam Clayman]

Jim, That's a hard one for me to answer. I find little to no affect from the altitude. My first reaction is to say that since Ballyneal uses the ground to present opportunity and challenge, the distance one hits the ball in the air is only part of the equation. Ballyneal, in it's own very special way, highlights the futility in specifying a number (par) to a hole. It's constantly changing from day to day. Into the wind, down wind, differing firmness of surfaces allows the golfer a wider range of emotions with each hole stroke and outcome.

[Kyle Henderson]

How much does altitude affect distance at Ballyneal? 

I believe the altitude around Denver yields a 10% bump in distance. Holyoke is only half as high, but I don't know the exact formula for calculating the effect of air density on golf ball dynamics. 5% extra seems about right, especially given the dry atmosphere. I didn't notice much of a difference with my wedges (not that my distance control is especially good anyways), but I definitely hit a club less than usual from long iron/fairway wood range.

[Tom_Doak]

Ballyneal is at 3700-3800 feet elevation [I think Sand Hills is 3400].  So, there is probably about a 5% difference in how far the ball carries on a normal day without wind ... if there ever was one.  Since you have to factor in wind and temperature, sometimes it's hard to remember to correct for the altitude as well.  And then, because of the design and the firmness, you are rarely trying to fly it all the way to the flag ...

[Kyle Henderson]

Hole #10 “509 yards”

A stern par 4 that requires a very solid drive. Like the 6th, there is no shame in choosing a shorter tee in striving for par, despite the modestly downhill nature of the hole. As part of a joyously recurring theme, care must be taken when choosing the line of one’s tee shot, not only to avoid the bordering hazards, but also considering the effects of the sizable fairway contours.


This picture was taken from a bit to the right of the 10th teeing area. The right side of the photo shows a sliver of the bunker found behind the 9th green. The right fairway bunker complex is 270 yards away, 300 yards to clear it.  Although the fairway appears to narrow past the bunker, the left-hand sand is 400 yards away. Hence, there is a wide swath of short grass weaving between the traps.



An image from the Ballyneal website shows that the swath of inter-hazard greenery features a sizeable fairway depression long and left of the starboard hazard. Although it is positioned a long way from the Tiger tees, helping winds, dry fairways ,and modern technology will ensure that this abyss is a common destination.  From there, views of the green will be severely impaired.


Past the depression, a simple wedge is left to a complex green that is 38 yards deep. Approach shots can utilize the left-hand slope to feed balls onto the putting surface. Subtle mounds guard the front of the green, adding complexity for those opting to play a running approach.  Two bunkers guarding the green short and right are scarcely visible. Staying right of the pin will usually leave an (overall) uphill putt. However, any putt from beyond 15 feet is bound to break more than one direction.

[Adam Clayman]

The tee shot on 10 might just be my favorite. Carrying the bunker is so satisfying with ample reward.

The rear bunker may be a bit of eye candy, but who really cares?

[Eric Pevoto]

Adam,

Thanks for the reply.  I'm sure I'm not getting the full story from the pictures.  Playability-wise, you're saying that balls don't necessarily funnel or collect.  I can understand what you're getting at.

The corridors, though, look to be protected.  Like I originally asked, was this a consideration to wind (especially during grow-in)?    Was there concern with saving/protecting irrigation?

It's more a functional question than playability.

P.S.  I've never played Pac Dunes.  Sadly, the only Doak courses I've played are Beechtree and Stonewall North & South.

[Kyle Henderson]

Adam,

Thanks for the reply.  I'm sure I'm not getting the full story from the pictures.  Playability-wise, you're saying that balls don't necessarily funnel or collect.  I can understand what you're getting at.

The corridors, though, look to be protected.  Like I originally asked, was this a consideration to wind (especially during grow-in)?    Was there concern with saving/protecting irrigation?

It's more a functional question than playability.

P.S.  I've never played Pac Dunes.  Sadly, the only Doak courses I've played are Beechtree and Stonewall North & South.

The dunes at Ballyneal are rather steep and sharp for the most part, and therefore much of the property does not cater to the routing of holes along ridgelines. However, many of the holes, whether or not they run in between the higher dunes, have very wide fairways (pictures don't convery the expansiveness of the prepared surfaces) with somewhat of a convex character to them (go back and look at #4 and #8). Nearly all of the greens have some sort of collection areas around them on one or more sides.

In other words, the low spots often border the fairways and greens where they meet the dunes, as if the holes were built on small ridges between large ones. Ballyneal does not consist of half pipes.

Now, casting aside the playing characteristics and focusing on the asthetics, the holes are somewhat isolated. Ballyneal doesn't "feel" as big as Sand Hills, for instance.

The issue of whether or not wind protection was also a factor in the routing is one for Mr. Doak to answer, should he choose to chime in, but my guess is that he was more concerned with what the land offered -- focusing on the provision of variety in how each hole played more than diversity of the peripheral scenery. He loves those topo maps.

The 13th hole is very much convex. Take a peak at Ran's profile if you want a sneak preview. 

[Scott Szabo]

Although this hole seems tough to Mr. Henderson, I am keeping hole-by-hole stats of (most of) my rounds, and hole #9 is presently the clear leader as the easiest par 4, with a scoring average of 4.03.  I attribute the low scoring here to good strategy.

The best landing area is the flat area 230-255 yards off the tee, just left of the big fairway bunker.  The ball tends to feed down into this flat spot, especially from the left side.  A 3-wood or a big 5-wood would work fine, but I like teeing the ball low and hitting a very low driver, regardless of wind direction.  Teeing it low makes it easy to hit straight, and an aggressive but short swing regularly gives the ball enough pep to bounce up the hill to the flat spot.  From there it's wedge time.

John,

I'm surprised to hear that #9 is playing statistically the easiest for you at Ballyneal.  I would think the par fives, along with possibly #1, would be ahead of #9.  I tend to play #9 as you describe, but the blind wedge makes it difficult to judge the distance, at least for me.  I tend to leave the ball 30-40 feet more times than not.

I've had the privilege of going around Ballyneal 9-10 times now, and am under par on each of the par fives (surprisingly, #16 is playing the easiest of the three, followed by #8, then #4).  I am not a long hitter by any stretch of the imagination, so the surprise to me is the uphill #16, which seems to play shorter than its actual playing yardage.  If I hug the left side of the ridge going up the hill, I usually am left with an awkard stance/shot from about 170 or so, while a drive to the right of center actually leaves a better stance, but greater distance of about 210 or so.

#7 is the one that seems to give me fits - I am rather poor from 40 yards and in it seems

I'd be curious to see that list of yours sometime, as I don't think our handicaps are all that different. 

Scott

[Kyle Henderson]

Hole #11 “200 yards”

Playing uphill, and especially when into the wind, the wise player will select enough club to ensure his ball makes it well onto the surface on this stellar par 3. The turf found short of the green is shaved and slick. As such, the base of the hill directly in front of the green is a popular destination, as are the right front bunkers. The brown patches seen in the green played like linoleum. The Tiger tees are set well back and to the left of the other 6 (!) teeing areas provided.



Looking towards the left front of Hole #11 from the 16th tee, the bunker guarding the left flank is apparent, as is the fall away at the left rear. This green is very deep (42 yards), but bailing out long to avoid the slope short of the green will leave a testy putt or recovery shot. If the pin is in the front (as it was for me), it isn’t difficult to knock one’s second shot off the front of the green.


Finding the left hand bunker might leave you with the ball well below (as pictured) or above your feet on a severe upslope. On the plus side, that velvety sand plays much more nicely than the rock-filled mud at your local muni. This green is exposed to the sun and winds, making it very quick (as noted, like linoleum in places on the day of play). Accordingly, recovery shots must land softly to hold to the putting surface. Keep those hands low and open that clubface!




Looking back toward the teeing areas, this photo from the Ballyneal website shows some of the more prominent green contours. The bunker seen at the left center of the photo is behind the 10th green.


A well-struck tee shot should yield a par on this hole, but there is enough challenge to keep things interesting. The hole presents a number of different recovery scenarios, as will the weather, all of which combine to keep things fresh and fun during round after round.

[John Kirk]

I really like the 11th hole.

Tom Doak mentioned to me recently that he likes the shorter tee boxes (177 yards and less) more than the one long tee box (200 yards).  The player approaches the green from farther left when he plays the back tee.  The hole opens up from back there, and though the approach is longer, the angle is much easier.  From the middle and shorter tees, the two front right bunkers are more in play, which might coax you into missing left, which can be a big problem.  I'd say the hole is about the same difficulty from the 177 and 200 yard boxes.

Another fact:  The green slopes from front up to the back more than it appears.  You don't want to be significantly long here.

[Kyle Henderson]

Hole #12: “375 yards”

A cunning, mid-length foe.

The view from the tippy tips makes #12 appear more difficult than it plays. Challenging the bunkers on the left (270 yards to carry) will shorten the hole considerably. Though the fairway does open up a bit on the left beyond the corner and provide a lovely flat parcel for one's second shot, hidden bunkers will snare a long bomb that draws a wincy bit too much.


An image from the Ballyneal website reveals some of the bulbous fairway features. The teeing area seen at the bottom right is the “240 yard” starter box and is unusually rectangular for Ballyneal. There is a world of room to the right, but  the fairway drops substantially towards the right side bunkers.



Although within wedge range, a shot placed in the depression bordering the right side of the fairway will leave the player shooting blindly up the hill.



From behind, one can distinguish where the 12th green is separated into front right, back right, and left sections. A nasty bunker lies long of the green. Looking back towards the tee, the depression on the right (viewer’s left) side of the fairway is visible, as is the flat piece of property available to those that carry the bunker guarding the left side.


Before walking off of the 12th green, one must decide whether or not they will proceed left to the 13th‘s teeing areas ranging from 330-396 yards or to the 510 (!) yard tees on the right.

[Tom_Doak]

Just a quick note about #11 -- as John says, the second tee (177 yards) was always my favorite.  However, we couldn't find nearly enough good space for tees in front of it, so we added the back tee simply for surface area.  Everyone always assumes that the back tee is the architect's ideal tee, but this is not necessarily so.

[John Mayhugh]

I really enjoyed the 12th hole.  There is a lot of room off the tee, but you really need to challenge the bunkers on the left to get the best approach angle.  This pic was taken from the center of the fairway at about 100 yards out.  The small bunker in front still occupies your thoughts.


Once you get to the green, that little bunker becomes even scarier. 

[Adam Clayman]

Few greens allow for the creative creation of marrying pace and line. Air braking balls to carry one of the mounds can yield 90 degree turns straight to the hole. Great fun!

[John Kirk]

Like hole #7, you see some creative and dramatic two putts here.  In terms of great two putts, there is more variety here. 

#12 is my favorite short par 4 on the course.

[Richard Boult]

Regarding the question above about how much further the ball travels here vs. sea level vs. Denver vs. Ballyneal... In mile-high Denver, atmospheric pressure is about 83% that at sea level. At Ballyneal, atmospheric pressue is about 87% that at sea level.  You get to about 50% at 18,000 ft.  Other factors apply to the distance the ball travels too (heat, humidity, etc.), but when comparing Ballyneal to Denver, the elevation difference is probably the main difference. I doubt you'd notice much of a difference.  Coming from here at sea level with our marine layer, I'd be hitting 'em over every green!

[Doug Wright]

Regarding the question above about how much further the ball travels here vs. sea level vs. Denver vs. Ballyneal... In mile-high Denver, atmospheric pressure is about 83% that at sea level. At Ballyneal, atmospheric pressue is about 87% that at sea level.  You get to about 50% at 18,000 ft.  Other factors apply to the distance the ball travels too (heat, humidity, etc.), but when comparing Ballyneal to Denver, the elevation difference is probably the main difference. I doubt you'd notice much of a difference.  Coming from here at sea level with our marine layer, I'd be hitting 'em over every green!

I'm from Denver and I did not notice much difference from mile high to 3700 feet in my club selection at Ballyneal (on the few shots that weren't wind aided/impeded, that is).  Interestingly, I notice a pretty big difference when I go up 1500 feet in elevation to the Colorado mountains.

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