[JWinick]

Jonathan,

I live in Chicago and I'm a member of a top-100 golf club.  We just did a golf course restoration, so I have some basis at questioning the figure.

I'm also in the commercial real estate banking business so I have a pretty good idea what commercial property costs.   I'm not doubting the ability of Congressional members to pay, I'm just wondering how they could spend $40MM.  Could they?  Of course, but I'm not sure how they could do it on the golf course.  Or on the clubhouse.   

For what's it worth, didn't Sand Hills cost $1.2MM to build?  In today's dollars, that's about $2MM.   Redoing the greens at Congressional should not be more than a few million.   But, it is the Washington, DC, area and people might be used to overblown budgets. 

[Carl Nichols]

So, how is the Gold Course?

I thought it was solid, but not special.  The Blue is clearly superior.  While there are some really good holes on the Gold, there are also a few that I did not like very much.  The routing seemed a bit forced.  And most of the par 3s play too close to the same club for my taste.  On the other hand, you have to keep in mind that it is their second course.  I haven't been to many clubs with a better second course.  Hopefully someone who has played there more than my whopping one time can chime in.

Ed

I've played it several times and agree with several of Ed's points, especially on the bottom line (very solid, but Blue is superior) and the routing.  The one difference I have with Ed is about the par 3's, which I have always found to be quite diverse.  The only other thing I'd add is that it's sufficiently different from the Blue that it provides a very nice change of pace--I'd sure be happy if it was the 2nd best course at my club!   

[Jonathan Cummings]

JWin - Congo's $40M redo includes a large 19th hole Senate Club overlooking the course, expanded verandas, a new restaurant, a vast new wellness/fitness center and an indoor Olympic swimming pool.

If you are a member of the Chicago club I think you are I know about your redo.  I have several friends at your club including a travel buddy who is on your board.  Your redo is of a smaller scale than Congo's.

Avenel (across the street from Congressional) just spent $33M upgrading their clubhouse/course.  The PGA sold 4 TPCs to fund the Sawgrass/Avenel upgrades.  Congo's clubhouse upgrade is on the scale of Sawgrass's recent clubhouse upgrade - both costing about the same.

Not sure what to make of your Sand Hills comparison....  Sand Hills and Congo construction costs are about as incomparable as you can get.

JC 

[Ed Oden]

The one difference I have with Ed is about the par 3's, which I have always found to be quite diverse. 

Carl, no doubt you are right.  I suspect my impression had more to do with tee placements and wind direction on the day I played.

Ed

[Paul Carey]

"The Gold course was designed by Trent Jones and George Fazio." 

That may have been true for the nine that was built about thirty years ago.  After the new nine was built it was combined with the original third nine.  The  entire Gold course was redone a few years ago Arthur Hills and I would consider it an Arthur Hills design.


Arthur Hills has had great success in the DC area .  His "renovations" include:

Congo Gold
Woodmont North
Manor
Chevy Chase
Bethesda
Burning Tree
Belle Haven Country Club
Country Club of Fairfax

New designs:
Blue Mash
Waverly Woods
Maryland National
Lowes Island
Arundel Mannor (under construction)


Not to start an Arthur Hills bashing thread...I hope.

[Sean_A]

Ed

Thanks for posting the pix.  I always appreciate a free and convenient look at places.  Congo (can I say this even if I am not a local?) doesn't look the sort of place which floats my boat.  I agree with Aussie Mike.  The detachment of the bunkering from the fairways gives the course a very generic look.  There are also wee details which are irksome and moreso given the status of the club.  Below is an example.  I don't like how the bunkering on the right draws your eye only to see a cart path on the same line. 


The coolest looking hole is #10 except for the silly front bunker.  One day, I will get to the bottom of this obsession with cutting off bodies of water from the course with bunkering.

Ciao

[JWinick]

Sean,

Where do you suggest they put the cart path?  How does the cart path hurt the hole for you?  I think you're being overly sensitive to the concrete infusion on the golf course.   I can't remember ever being annoyed on the golf course at the location of a cart path, except if my ball hits one a fly and ricochets in the wrong direction. 

 

[Sean_A]

Sean,

Where do you suggest they put the cart path?  How does the cart path hurt the hole for you?  I think you're being overly sensitive to the concrete infusion on the golf course.   I can't remember ever being annoyed on the golf course at the location of a cart path, except if my ball hits one a fly and ricochets in the wrong direction. 

 

J

Its difficult to suggest where a cart path should go as its really a road system that needs to be viewed in its entirety.  However, off the top of my head and knowing that the course has had loads of shaping - why not shape the course to hide cart paths?  I might be overly sensitive, but I don't go to courses to look at roads and I really enjoy well thought out details.  Its particularly annoying when the land has been shifted about, but without regard to basic aesthetic concepts such as hiding cart paths.  Its not as if money is an issue.  Additionally, in my experience, just like a bunker or trees or water, if the eye is drawn to it it can be hit with a golf ball - far too many cart paths are in play.  Incidentally, that is one reason why I really like visually open doglegs.  If a player can see the green, he is drawn to hitting toward it even though many a golfer can't make the carry.

Ciao

[Jerry Kluger]

The photo of #15 points out what the problem Congressional is now having with today's technology.  I regularly attended Tour events at Congo and we would watch the approach shots into #14 and then the tee shots on #15.  #14 fairway narrows down dramatically and there is often a downhill second shot into an elevated green.  #15 on the other hand had been a long iron from a level lie into a well protected, elevated green.  The bunkers on the right would collect pushed tee shots and most players could not hit it past the bunkers.  5 iron was often the club necessary for the second shot into #15, now it is usually nothing more than an 8 iron or less, and there is no concern about hitting into the bunkers.

Paul: Arthur Hills has done a great deal of work in the DC area but don't you find that much of what he has done looks and plays the same.  I have played most of the renovated courses and the greens and bunkering feel very much alike.  The courses he designed are far better as far as I am concerned:  I enjoy Blue Mash and Maryland National while Waverly Woods does have some fun holes. 

Is Congressional going to use Rees Jones for the redo?

[Matt_Ward]

Interesting comment from yesterday's telecast when one of the announcers stated the players love the course but I have to wonder where the compelling architecture is at Congressional ?

I've played it four times over the years and candidly the overall infrastructure and being near the seat of national power is the only reason why the US Open and other such events would entertain being there.

The Venturi win is etched into the golf memory books and Congressional has benefited from that enormously over the years. On the architecture side I don't see much that would really make me say wow.

Jonathan is quite right about the deep pockets and the network base that reside at the heart of Congressional -- just shows the elements of high octane architecture are really a back seat partner in this story.

[JSlonis]

Thanks for the photos Ed.

Has anyone heard the reasons why the greens are being reworked?

I've played Congressional several times and I don't understand the need to redo all the greensites?  Are they being redone/regrassed for agronomic reasons while keeping the current contours or are they going to be a total reconstruction and design?  There are some pretty good greens on the course as it is now.

I like a wide variety of golf courses and architecture and I've always felt that the Blue course was a pretty solid course.  I am always surprised by some of the very low scores these guys shoot at courses like Congressional.  Even if it was playing softer, it still is not easy by any means.

[Carl Nichols]

Thanks for the photos Ed.

Has anyone heard the reasons why the greens are being reworked?

I've played Congressional several times and I don't understand the need to redo all the greensites?  Are they being redone/regrassed for agronomic reasons while keeping the current contours or are they going to be a total reconstruction and design?  There are some pretty good greens on the course as it is now.

I like a wide variety of golf courses and architecture and I've always felt that the Blue course was a pretty solid course.  I am always surprised by some of the very low scores these guys shoot at courses like Congressional.  Even if it was playing softer, it still is not easy by any means.

My understanding is that the primary reason for redoing the greens is that they're entirely poa, and there were complaints last year at the AT&T National about the greens being too bumpy.  I think they're also putting in state-of-the-art cooling and drainage systems.  I don't know whether they're redesigning the greens. 

[Paul Carey]

Jerry,

I think we agree on Arthur Hills.  I am not a big fan but some of his courses are pretty.  I find is absolutely astonishing taht some great clubs in the DC area get sold b him to do the renovations!  Woodmont, Chevy Chase, Manor and some of the others have such great pieces of land and history of golf architecture that they deserved better.

Additionally as a "marketing" issue wouldn't bringing in a different architect halp attract members?

PC

[Jerry Kluger]

Lakewood brought in Rees Jones to the tune of more than $6 million - results are okay but really nothing exceptional.  Problem is most of the clubs really don't want anything too challenging or interesting.  You put in some really interesting greens and green complexes and you could have a rebellion at some of those clubs.

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