You really have to see it to appreciate what was done to create

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bayonne Golf Club.

It's quite astounding.

The took a site, flat as a pancake at 10' ASL, imported over 7,500,000 cubic yards of two kinds of fill, binded it with Fly Ash/Cement and created a golf course, that if I took a picture from the middle of the 16th fairway, back to the tee and clubhouse, you'd never guess where you were in a million tries.

The American Flag flying high above everything is massive.
The flag pole is the largest in the state of NJ.
The forces on the Flag/pole are enormous, causing the foundation of the flag pole to be imbeded 75 feet below the above ground base.

The course now reaches elevations of 122' ASL.

The hills, dunes, bunkers, grass, bushes ....... everything was imported.

It's quite an amazing golf course.

I found it fun to play.

The conditioning was terrific.

Some might not like the number or kind of blind holes, but, it's a sporty, fun, challenging lay out, on a very compact piece of land.

Some might complain about the green to tee walks, but, they're tolerable.

Most complaints are probably directly proportional to the complainer's play and score.
 
The fairways are very generous, the wind blows pretty steadily at good velocity and some of the views are spectacular.

There's a nice feeling of isolation on some holes.

There's an 800' bridge that the club was forced to create, at a cost of
$ 1,200,000 just so the public can walk near the water.
Bear in mind that it was all mud and marsh, totally unwalkable, but some genius/es determined that they'd extract a pound of flesh in the name of ?

The clubhouse, attention to detail and most everything about the club is terrific, especially on such a HOSTILE site.

I'm sure, with some fine tuning, that the course will only get better.

It's a must see.

And again, understanding that the site was dead flat at 10' ASL, it's astounding what was accomplished.

Hats off to Eric Bergstol, he did a fabulous job of creating a unique and enjoyable golf course.

Go to Bayonnegolfclub.com and take the tours

[Jay Flemma]

Here here, seconded.  Its a fabulous golf course.  I still say they should make 14 tee the first hole and finish with 13, that great flagpole hole.  Sure it means starting on a par-3, but hey...Royal Lytham and St. Anne's.  plus it would give it some cache for being daring and different..an image they like having there...

Moreover, if you buy Golf Architecture Vol. 4 y(paul daley's new book), you can read a terrific chapter on Bayonne.

[Mike Sweeney]

There's an 800' bridge that the club was forced to create, at a cost of
$ 1,200,000 just so the public can walk near the water.
Bear in mind that it was all mud and marsh, totally unwalkable, but some genius/es determined that they'd extract a pound of flesh in the name of ?

Patrick,

As a kid who grew up on The Beaches of New Jersey, I am a huge believer in public access to the beach and yes i believe that Bayonne is a "beach" the same way that most of Manhattan has public access to the shoreline.

Maidstone, Newport, National and Sebonnack all have public access between the golf course and the water. Pretty good company for Bayonne GC!

ALS is the main group in this campaign in NJ, but I am not sure if they were involved in BGC.

http://www.littoralsociety.org/protecting_access_shore.aspx

_______________________

A long campaign by the American Littoral Society and other coastal advocates to strengthen the tools to insure that the public has access to the Public Trust areas of the beaches and tidal waters of the state scored a significant victory on December 17, with the adoption of new rules by the New Jersey Department of Environmental Protection - giving new life to the Public Trust Doctrine and protecting and creating public access to the shore.

_______________________

On Martha's Vineyard some of the "Beach Keys" for private access to the beach cost up to $250,000+. They take away from the spirit of The Island. The market is down from the $415,000 in this article:

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2005/06/18/for_415000_you_get_the_key_to_a_vineyard_oasis/

Here is a vote for beach and harbor access by the public!

[Patrick_Mucci]

There's an 800' bridge that the club was forced to create, at a cost of
$ 1,200,000 just so the public can walk near the water.
Bear in mind that it was all mud and marsh, totally unwalkable, but some genius/es determined that they'd extract a pound of flesh in the name of ?

Patrick,

As a kid who grew up on The Beaches of New Jersey, I am a huge believer in public access to the beach and yes i believe that Bayonne is a "beach" the same way that most of Manhattan has public access to the shoreline.

Mike,

There's no beach there, and if there was, you wouldn't go into the water on a bet.[/color]

Maidstone, Newport, National and Sebonnack all have public access between the golf course and the water. Pretty good company for Bayonne GC!

Mike, those courses have nice beaches, nice waterfronts.
Bayonne has mud flats and swampy areas, there is NO beach
Go to Google Earth and look at it.[/color]

ALS is the main group in this campaign in NJ, but I am not sure if they were involved in BGC.


I don't know who was responsible for forcing the club to erect a $ 1,200,000 bridge to no where, but, it's insanity and proof that foolish government intervention drives up costs, unnecessarily, and delays project unreasonably.[/color]


A long campaign by the American Littoral Society and other coastal advocates to strengthen the tools to insure that the public has access to the Public Trust areas of the beaches and tidal waters of the state scored a significant victory on December 17, with the adoption of new rules by the New Jersey Department of Environmental Protection - giving new life to the Public Trust Doctrine and protecting and creating public access to the shore.

That's some shore line.

Look at it on Google Earth and tell me that it wasn't a wasteful mandate.[/color]


On Martha's Vineyard some of the "Beach Keys" for private access to the beach cost up to $250,000+. They take away from the spirit of The Island. The market is down from the $415,000 in this article:

It's an absurd comparison.
Please VIEW and examine the shore line you're so concerned about, AND, the bridge to nowhere that cost $ 1,200,000[/color]

Here is a vote for beach and harbor access by the public!

Before you jump on the lunatic bandwagon, why don't you examine the specific site, then render an opinion[/color]

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bayonne Golf Club Shoreline & Bridge (1)

[Chip Gaskins]

Private or Public?  Private I assume...

[PThomas]

i knew you'd like it Patrick

[Mike Sweeney]

Bayonne Golf Club Shoreline & Bridge (1)

Patrick,

While I will vote for you as Club Dictator, I don't think you will get my vote as Visionary Governor of New Jersey!

New York Harbor Today with Battery Park City and Bayonne GC in the same tidal basin



Google Aerial of BGC



Battery Park City in the 1970's



BPC Today







The fact that the politicians of Jersey were able to get a bunch of golf junkies to pay for and springboard the redevelopment of Bayonne tells me something.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Paul Thomas,

I had heard about it, but it's not until you drive through the gate, that you begin to understand what's been accomplished.  It's incredibly dramatic.

The elevation changes are mind boggling.

The fairway and green undulations are mind boggling.

I don't think there's a flat fairway on the golf course.

Probably the only serious flaw is the lack of a traditional range, although, I did like the "short" range.

I also enjoyed looking up at that massive American Flag on many holes, majestic as it flew proudly in the breeze.

Can you imagine how large it is and how enormous the stress factors are ?
They had to go down 75 feet below the surface to create the foundation/base of that flag pole.

It's a neat golf course.

Walking ONLY.

And, the Caddies were TERRIFIC, great at yardage and sensational at reading greens.

On two greens I didn't believe the read and putted where I thought it would break, but, the caddy was right on the money with his read and kidded me about believing him.

I think it's a course that you adjust to and play better with each repeat visit.

[Dean Paolucci]

I echo the sentiments set forth by Pat.  I have never been on a new construction course which was so enjoyable with an Old Classic feel.  Every hole and detail was incredibly thought out.  My hat goes off to Bergstol.  Fireman (Liberty National) must have "penal envy"!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

Take a close look at this picture, the bridge and the path extending from it that terminates behind the 17th tee, in the upper right section of the picture, just below the circle.

And, the area above the rectangle is under water.

Look at the bridge and where it leads to.
There is NO BEACH.

It's mud flats.



Saying it's part of the same tidal basin is akin to saying that England and Miami Beach are part of the same Ocean

[PThomas]

I agree with all you said Patrick

my only regret:  the day I was there no flag!  It was being repaired

my caddie , like you, said it was quite majestic

DEFINITELY a course i would like to play again someday!

[Tommy Williamsen]

Pat, glad you got to Bayonne.  It is a marvel.  Given the small acreage, the routing is masterful.
He separates the holes by elevation as much as by distance.  The attention to detail is amazing. 
The walks between holes looks as though it had been there for decades rather than months.
I played with Dwight Segal (sp?) the head pro and it was fun to hear him describe the building of the course.  I played Liberty National the same day and was disappointed.  It was good but not great, considering Kite could have done anything he wanted.  It was hard though and the prose will have their hands full, especially if the stray from the fairway.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy,

Agreed.

I really liked the WIDE fairways and the Fescue fairways were in excellent shape, as were the greens.

I also liked the bunker shapes.

When you consider that virtually everything on that site was imported, it's quite a spectucular endeavor.

I intend to take my son to Bayonne, just to see that American Flag, it's inspiring.
And, the closer you get to it, the more impressive it becomes.
It was fully unfurled and flying magnificently in the strong breeze.
I wish I had brought a cameral

One of the fellows I played with mentioned how he missed seeing the World Trade Center, and how most outside of the Metropolitan New York area have pretty much forgotten that day, along with the deaths and the destruction, and that playing that golf course and seeing that Majestic Flag from hole after hole, reminded him of how great America is and that we must be eternally vigilant in protecting it.

[Mike Sweeney]

It's mud flats.

And the golf course you are raving about was a flat industrial mess not too long ago. Putting together the walkway started in 1966:

______________________________________________

http://www.state.nj.us/dep/cmp/czm_hudson.html


Since the concept for the Hudson River Waterfront Walkway first appeared in the Regional Plan Association's 1966 study, "The Lower Hudson", it has developed into a major attraction for pedestrians and bicyclists. The Walkway plan envisions a contiguous 18.5 mile long public waterfront corridor traversing nine municipalities in two counties from the George Washington Bridge to the Bayonne Bridge.

Historically, public access to the waterfront in this urban area was precluded by industrial use of the land. As existing land uses change, this "pathway for the people" is reestablishing the public's right of access to and full enjoyment of the tidally flowed and formerly flowed filled waterways. Through coastal regulation, the Department is effectuating the historic principles of the public trust doctrine that originated in Roman times and dates to the early nineteenth century in our State's jurisprudence. The coastal regulations judiciously balance the interests for development of an economically thriving 21st century waterfront with the public's right to outdoor recreation along tidal waters. The walkway integrates historic neighborhoods with new offices, housing and commercial development, all with views of universally recognized landmarks: the Statue of Liberty, the New York skyline, Ellis Island, and the Hudson River.

Despite more than 20 years of economic, political, and regulatory change, this public access initiative has created over 11 miles of walkway with an additional 5.5 miles along roadways of southern Jersey City and Bayonne. The walkway is a testament to the value of imaginative urban planning that considers the public benefit at large.

Recently, through public-private partnerships established among state and local government, commercial developers, and public interest groups, additional segments of walkway have been and will be constructed. In 2002, NJDEP completed its first walkway project outside of Liberty State Park. The NJ Coastal Zone Management Program constructed the project on land leased for 50 years to the City of Hoboken from Stevens Institute of Technology. The city will maintain the 1100 foot long walkway and associated 125 foot long fishing pier as Castle Point Park. The project was constructed using funds from the Federal Highway Administration Transportation Equity Act for the 21st Century, NJDOT Discretionary Municipal Aid, the Hudson River Waterfront Walkway Gap Site Appropriation, and NJDEP's Green Acres Program. Design costs were funded in part by the Harbor Cleanup Program.

The Coastal Management Program is coordinating with Stevens Institute to continue the Hudson River Waterfront Walkway for an additional approximately 400 feet south of the Castle Point segment. The new section of walkway, at the proposed site for the Center for Maritime Systems, will link Castle Point Park with Frank Sinatra Park, resulting in a continuous walkway from Union Dry Dock all the way to Hoboken Terminal.

[Dan Chapman]

Patrick,

Thank you for your thoughts.  I knew very little about Bayonne until very recently, but have since become very intrigued by it.  My only exposure to it has been from their website but I think the place looks incredible.  Glad to hear others confirm.

[Patrick_Mucci]

It's mud flats.

And the golf course you are raving about was a flat industrial mess not too long ago.


I believe that 30 of the 150 acres was an industrial mess.

Have you been on the site ?[/color]

Putting together the walkway started in 1966:

Not to where it extends today.

It DEAD END behind the 16th green.
There are NO BEACHES, no beautiful sites hard by the water.

Bayonne was forced to extend the walkway to nowhere.
Had the authorities you cite had their way the public would have come into the lines of play on # 17.[/color]
______________________________________________

http://www.state.nj.us/dep/cmp/czm_hudson.html

Since the concept for the Hudson River Waterfront Walkway first appeared in the Regional Plan Association's 1966 study, "The Lower Hudson", it has developed into a major attraction for pedestrians and bicyclists.


Not at that location.

That's a costly extension to nowhere, a total waste of money[/color]

The Walkway plan envisions a contiguous 18.5 mile long public waterfront corridor traversing nine municipalities in two counties from the George Washington Bridge to the Bayonne Bridge.

They tried to extend it further, into a terrible area, and only succeeded in getting it to the location behind the 16th green at a great cost to BGC.  The bridge alone cost $ 1,200,000, it's a total waste of money.

HAVE YOU SEEN IT IN PERSON ?[/color]

Historically, public access to the waterfront in this urban area was precluded by industrial use of the land. As existing land uses change, this "pathway for the people" is reestablishing the public's right of access to and full enjoyment of the tidally flowed and formerly flowed filled waterways. Through coastal regulation, the Department is effectuating the historic principles of the public trust doctrine that originated in Roman times and dates to the early nineteenth century in our State's jurisprudence. The coastal regulations judiciously balance the interests for development of an economically thriving 21st century waterfront with the public's right to outdoor recreation along tidal waters.

Mike, as a New Yorker I can understand your ignorance when it comes to development in NJ, which has ground to a halt due to COAH and other regulations.  If it wasn't for NYC, northern NJ would be decimated, developmentally.[/color]

The walkway integrates historic neighborhoods with new offices, housing and commercial development, all with views of universally recognized landmarks: the Statue of Liberty, the New York skyline, Ellis Island, and the Hudson River.

That's pure horseshit at this location.
You can't see any of those features from that walkway.
You can see a huge building and huge cranes in the distance and MUD FLATS in the foreground.

HAVE YOU BEEN TO THE SITE ?[/color]

Despite more than 20 years of economic, political, and regulatory change, this public access initiative has created over 11 miles of walkway with an additional 5.5 miles along roadways of southern Jersey City and Bayonne. The walkway is a testament to the value of imaginative urban planning that considers the public benefit at large.

Not at that location, unless you consider tank farms and mud flats breath taking.[/color]

HAVE YOU BEEN TO THAT LOCATION ?[/b][/color]

Recently, through public-private partnerships established among state and local government, commercial developers, and public interest groups, additional segments of walkway have been and will be constructed.


You're not up to date on your facts.
There will be NO continuation beyond the present terminus.[/color]

In 2002, NJDEP completed its first walkway project outside of Liberty State Park. The NJ Coastal Zone Management Program constructed the project on land leased for 50 years to the City of Hoboken from Stevens Institute of Technology. The city will maintain the 1100 foot long walkway and associated 125 foot long fishing pier as Castle Point Park.

Mike, it's nice that you're quoting this nonsense, but that site isn't remotely close to the BGC site.
It's miles away.
Please, do yourself a favor and familiarize yourself with the specific site and stop quoting absurd passages that have no bearing on the BGC site.[/color]

The project was constructed using funds from the Federal Highway Administration Transportation Equity Act for the 21st Century, NJDOT Discretionary Municipal Aid, the Hudson River Waterfront Walkway Gap Site Appropriation, and NJDEP's Green Acres Program. Design costs were funded in part by the Harbor Cleanup Program.

More horseshit.
BGC was forced to pay for the walkway and bridge at that site, with the bridge to nowhere costing
$ 1,200,000[/color]

The Coastal Management Program is coordinating with Stevens Institute to continue the Hudson River Waterfront Walkway for an additional approximately 400 feet south of the Castle Point segment. The new section of walkway, at the proposed site for the Center for Maritime Systems, will link Castle Point Park with Frank Sinatra Park, resulting in a continuous walkway from Union Dry Dock all the way to Hoboken Terminal.


Mike, that area isn't anywhere near BGC.

Familiarize yourself with the site, and stop quoting nonsense that has NO bearing on the specific site posted in my photo.[/color]

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dan Chapman,

What also surprised me was the mature look of the golf course.

It looks as if it's been there for some time.

When you look at the website and take the various tours you can see the enormous elevation changes from the adjacent property, all of which was at 10' ASL.

[David_Elvins]

Thanks for the notes, Patrick.  I have wanted to hear more about the course for a while.

Were there any holes there that were particularly memorable?

Just a small point - whilst the flagpole is no doubt impressive, the 75 foot depth of the foundations would be more a factor of the local geology than the forces of the pole.  The fill imported onto the site and the presumably weak alluvial mudflats underneath the fill would have limited ability to support structures. 

[James Bennett]

Given the small acreage, the routing is masterful.
He separates the holes by elevation as much as by distance. 

Tommy (and Pat)

interesting words.  I will read more about it from Daley's Vol 4.  Can you expand on what you mean by separating the holes by elevation as much as by distance?  Is it that consecutive holes are played at different elevations, almost akin to being on a different floor of a building?  Are there any other combination of holes that have a simialr feeling? 

I think of Royal Dornoch #17 as being a great example of a hole that links separate landforms, which in conjunction with #16 get the golfer from the coast to the highland for the last hole.  Is this the sort of concept, or soemthing quite different?

James B

[RJ_Daley]

I'd be interested in comments of folks that have now played at Bayonne and Whistling.   They would seem to have the same faux links construction origins.  Also, a two tiered parallel hole corridor theme seems to be similar. 

I watched the various tours and hole by hole on the website.  The already heavy texture of the vegitation in the rough and distance of rough width to next hole corridor or OB seem in some spots quite marginal from the flyovers.  Perhaps the scale is quite distorted in the videos.  What are the playability, and width factors of the rough?  Is the rough and the nature of the tremendous vegitation in waste areas and waste bunkers a round killer and time waster?  Is it wall to wall bents on FW, approaches and greens? 

[Sean_A]

It's mud flats.

And the golf course you are raving about was a flat industrial mess not too long ago. Putting together the walkway started in 1966:

______________________________________________

http://www.state.nj.us/dep/cmp/czm_hudson.html


Since the concept for the Hudson River Waterfront Walkway first appeared in the Regional Plan Association's 1966 study, "The Lower Hudson", it has developed into a major attraction for pedestrians and bicyclists. The Walkway plan envisions a contiguous 18.5 mile long public waterfront corridor traversing nine municipalities in two counties from the George Washington Bridge to the Bayonne Bridge.

Historically, public access to the waterfront in this urban area was precluded by industrial use of the land. As existing land uses change, this "pathway for the people" is reestablishing the public's right of access to and full enjoyment of the tidally flowed and formerly flowed filled waterways. Through coastal regulation, the Department is effectuating the historic principles of the public trust doctrine that originated in Roman times and dates to the early nineteenth century in our State's jurisprudence. The coastal regulations judiciously balance the interests for development of an economically thriving 21st century waterfront with the public's right to outdoor recreation along tidal waters. The walkway integrates historic neighborhoods with new offices, housing and commercial development, all with views of universally recognized landmarks: the Statue of Liberty, the New York skyline, Ellis Island, and the Hudson River.

Despite more than 20 years of economic, political, and regulatory change, this public access initiative has created over 11 miles of walkway with an additional 5.5 miles along roadways of southern Jersey City and Bayonne. The walkway is a testament to the value of imaginative urban planning that considers the public benefit at large.

Recently, through public-private partnerships established among state and local government, commercial developers, and public interest groups, additional segments of walkway have been and will be constructed. In 2002, NJDEP completed its first walkway project outside of Liberty State Park. The NJ Coastal Zone Management Program constructed the project on land leased for 50 years to the City of Hoboken from Stevens Institute of Technology. The city will maintain the 1100 foot long walkway and associated 125 foot long fishing pier as Castle Point Park. The project was constructed using funds from the Federal Highway Administration Transportation Equity Act for the 21st Century, NJDOT Discretionary Municipal Aid, the Hudson River Waterfront Walkway Gap Site Appropriation, and NJDEP's Green Acres Program. Design costs were funded in part by the Harbor Cleanup Program.

The Coastal Management Program is coordinating with Stevens Institute to continue the Hudson River Waterfront Walkway for an additional approximately 400 feet south of the Castle Point segment. The new section of walkway, at the proposed site for the Center for Maritime Systems, will link Castle Point Park with Frank Sinatra Park, resulting in a continuous walkway from Union Dry Dock all the way to Hoboken Terminal.

Mike

I am completely with you. Some folks just don't get it. 

Ciao

[Mike Sweeney]

HAVE YOU BEEN TO THE SITE ?[/b][/color]

No, have you been to the Pound Ridge GC site about which you stated "The course was delayed for eleven (11) years by various agencies"?

I will make you a bet double or nothing on that lunch you owe me that I visit the Bayonne GC site before you admit you were wrong on that Pound Ridge thread!

I am serious in saying that there is no way that area around Bayonne GC will look the same in twenty years, and if Bergstal has any cash left, I would think he is trying to buy property around the club.

Back when Atlantic GC first opened, the land around it was a bunch of potato fields on the wrong side of the highway. Today the raw land trades at obscene numbers.

[Jim Nugent]

I am serious in saying that there is no way that area around Bayonne GC will look the same in twenty years, and if Bergstal has any cash left, I would think he is trying to buy property around the club.

Back when Atlantic GC first opened, the land around it was a bunch of potato fields on the wrong side of the highway. Today the raw land trades at obscene numbers.

So you think you can predict the future 20 years from now? 

My worthless prediction is that things will look a whole lot different than almost everyone expects. 

[Jed Peters]

I hope to see this magnificent place by the end of the month when I'm down there, but I'm not sure if it's all going to work out, or if that's where we're playing, etc.

I will tell you this--it looks like a phenomenal feat of engineering, design, and vision.