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Sean Leary

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Re: Name a major city whose best courses aren't its oldest courses
« Reply #25 on: July 02, 2008, 08:18:30 PM »
Seattle for sure...

Tim Leahy

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Re: Name a major city whose best courses aren't its oldest courses
« Reply #26 on: July 02, 2008, 08:28:10 PM »
Sacramento, Ca, it is the state capitol.

Oldest but not best, Hagin Oaks-Mackenzie-destroyed by the city
                                 Del Paso CC-not much left of orig. design
Best not nec in the city but considered Sacto-Granite Bay,
                                                                        Rancho Murieta North
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

David Stamm

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Re: Name a major city whose best courses aren't its oldest courses
« Reply #27 on: July 02, 2008, 08:48:09 PM »
San Diego- Barona Creek
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Matt_Cohn

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Re: Name a major city whose best courses aren't its oldest courses
« Reply #28 on: July 02, 2008, 09:59:30 PM »
San Diego- Barona Creek

Fine, but aren't Rancho Santa Fe, La Jolla, and San Diego CC maybe 3 of the next 5 on the list? And aren't those the three oldest ones in the city?

Matt_Cohn

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Re: Name a major city whose best courses aren't its oldest courses
« Reply #29 on: July 02, 2008, 10:01:32 PM »
Bandon, OR

Nice "major city".  ;D

But even if it counts, aren't Pacific Dunes and Bandon Dunes generally ranked higher than Trails and Crossings?

Pebble Beach, CA

Ditto - weren't Pebble and Cypress two of the first three (after Del Monte)? Since then - Spanish Bay, Spyglass, Poppy, etc. Aren't the older ones still the "best"?

Ed Oden

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Re: Name a major city whose best courses aren't its oldest courses
« Reply #30 on: July 02, 2008, 10:05:31 PM »
I will argue against Dallas.Newer courses Dallas Nat,Gentle Creek and Cowboys vs Brook Hollow, Lakewood, Northwood,Preston Trail,DAC Blue,Oak Cliff and Cedar Crest.That's my top ten in no order but the older dominates.

Mike, I would agree with you if the dividing line for old vs new is circa 1970.  But I thought this was a "golden age" vs later question.  If so, Northwood, Preston Trail, DAC and Oak Cliff all shift over to the "new" catagory and would seem to tip the scales in that direction.

Ed

David Stamm

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Re: Name a major city whose best courses aren't its oldest courses
« Reply #31 on: July 02, 2008, 10:09:40 PM »
San Diego- Barona Creek

Fine, but aren't Rancho Santa Fe, La Jolla, and San Diego CC maybe 3 of the next 5 on the list? And aren't those the three oldest ones in the city?

Probably. I would say that RSFGC would've been a contender for best in the city pre Fleming redo. I would add Pauma Valley to the mix as well. I haven't played SDCC, but have been told by a number of people it good and worthy of a top 5 consideration.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

J_ Crisham

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Re: Name a major city whose best courses aren't its oldest courses
« Reply #32 on: July 02, 2008, 10:11:16 PM »
Matt, The definition of old is a curious one regarding the Pebble area. My thoughts are wherever one places MPCC tips the scales.  Just a personal preference. Jack

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Name a major city whose best courses aren't its oldest courses
« Reply #33 on: July 02, 2008, 10:17:17 PM »
Fellas,

Ever hear of survivor bias?

PS Shenzhen!

Helpfully,


mark chalfant

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Re: Name a major city whose best courses aren't its oldest courses
« Reply #34 on: July 02, 2008, 10:25:07 PM »
I love  Brook  Hollow in Dallas


But Im curious, if  Shady Oaks, Craig  Ranch , Mira vista, and  Vaquero are added to  the moderngroup in DFW, would  Classic  or Modern  layouts take the gold medal   ?

Matthew Mollica

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Re: Name a major city whose best courses aren't its oldest courses
« Reply #35 on: July 02, 2008, 10:32:31 PM »
Not sure if it constitutes a major city, but Perth is the capital city of the state of West Australia.

It's two most recently built courses, The Cut at Port Bouvard (James Wilcher) and Kennedy Bay (Baker-Finch et al) are better than any of the older courses including Lake Karrinyup (Alex Russell). Having said that, the completion of Michael Clayton's re-working of LK may make me eat my words!!

Interesting topic.
Certainly, the older courses in Melbourne, Sydney and Adelaide are all superior to their newer courses.

Matthew
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Tim Pitner

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Re: Name a major city whose best courses aren't its oldest courses
« Reply #36 on: July 02, 2008, 10:35:44 PM »
Denver?  Is Colorado Golf Club better than Cherry Hills?

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Name a major city whose best courses aren't its oldest courses
« Reply #37 on: July 02, 2008, 10:39:25 PM »
For being the capital of the country, Washington DC does not have very many great courses.  They have very good but not great.  Congressional and Chevy Chase are as close as we get.  Four Streams is  a very good new course.  RTJ is disappointing. 
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Name a major city whose best courses aren't its oldest courses
« Reply #38 on: July 02, 2008, 10:42:45 PM »
Matthew

I almost wrote Perth! Thought about Brisbane too - if R Queensland now counts as "modern."

Mark

Kevin Pallier

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Re: Name a major city whose best courses aren't its oldest courses
« Reply #39 on: July 02, 2008, 10:53:48 PM »
Matthew

I almost wrote Perth! Thought about Brisbane too - if R Queensland now counts as "modern."

Mark

Mark

I'd include Brisbane in the same group as Perth if we're looking at the Top bracket of courses. The same one-day could be said hopefully for the state of Tasmania  ;D if those "new" courses shape up to be of any quality

Wayne_Kozun

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Re: Name a major city whose best courses aren't its oldest courses
« Reply #40 on: July 02, 2008, 11:01:30 PM »
I really think survivorship bias is a BIG issue here.  Most lousy or mediocre courses that were built in the Golden Age, or earlier, would be gone.  Many of the top private clubs in many cities that were built in the Golden Age are on their second or third sites - the original sites were either overgrown by the city or the courses were deemed to be not of sufficient quality.  This is certainly the case with some of the best courses in Canada - it describes both Hamilton G&CC and Toronto GC - both of which were built by Colt in the 1910s but are not the original sites of the club. 

And by the way, Toronto would be one exception to your rule as the best course is generally deemed to be St. Georges which was built in 1928 - making it one of the newest private courses in the city.  The Muskoka region would be another - almost all of the old courses are mediocre while there are several excellent courses that have been built in the last 25 years.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2008, 11:04:54 PM by Wayne_Kozun »

Andy Troeger

Re: Name a major city whose best courses aren't its oldest courses
« Reply #41 on: July 02, 2008, 11:02:46 PM »
Denver?  Is Colorado Golf Club better than Cherry Hills?

IMO, yes it is and Castle Pines is better than either one. All three are very good.

mike_beene

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Re: Name a major city whose best courses aren't its oldest courses
« Reply #42 on: July 02, 2008, 11:43:01 PM »
Ed,Mark,several thoughts.I didn't count Ft Worth but if I did Shady makes my top 10 as does Colonial.Re my oldies,Brook Hollow 1920ish,Lakewood 1912,Northwood 1946.DAC Blue 1952? but heavily remodelled by Nicklaus within last 20 years.Throw Dallas National,Preston Trail 1965ish and Gentle Creek and Cowboys to round out my DFW top ten.Still pretty old.

Matt_Cohn

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Re: Name a major city whose best courses aren't its oldest courses
« Reply #43 on: July 03, 2008, 02:04:41 AM »
Matt, The definition of old is a curious one regarding the Pebble area. My thoughts are wherever one places MPCC tips the scales.  Just a personal preference. Jack

I love MPCC as much as anyone. I haven't played Cypress or Pebble. As much as I love MPCC, I don't anticipate anyone making that case that those two courses are better than the Pebble/Cypress combo.

Phil_the_Author

Re: Name a major city whose best courses aren't its oldest courses
« Reply #44 on: July 03, 2008, 02:44:42 AM »
El Paso, Texas...

Coronado CC is still the only course without any trees at all that I ever played and the houses one plays between scare the hell out of you!

I can't name any of the courses other than the El Paso CC off the top of my very tired head, but the new courses built in the last 30+ years HAVE to be better!

By the way, isn't El Paso the largest city in the U.S.? Largest in total square miles that is as it runs around Thunderbird mountain...

Bill Shamleffer

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Re: Name a major city whose best courses aren't its oldest courses
« Reply #45 on: July 03, 2008, 08:34:04 AM »
St Loius?
Old Warson is way overated, and Bellrive is probably the best in the city

Sorry,  St. Louis CC is way better.

I too was thinking how St. Louis fit into this question.

John is of course correct; St. Louis C.C. is THE BEST in town.  However, the question is in the plural.

Of the other old guard fine course are Westwood, Glen Echo, Norwood and Algonquin.

On the other hand, there are also quite a few excellent new courses.  These include Bellerive, Old Warson, Fox Run, St. Albans, Boone Valley, Gateway National, Annbriar and Spencer T. Olin.  There are also quite a few new courses from the last 20 years that I have never seen.

I think what one will find to be true is that most major cities' best public course were built in the last 25 years.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2008, 08:37:28 AM by Bill Shamleffer »
“The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.”  Damon Runyon

Andy Troeger

Re: Name a major city whose best courses aren't its oldest courses
« Reply #46 on: July 03, 2008, 08:35:30 AM »
Philip,
El Paso would seem to qualify, Butterfield Trail which just opened last year is a nice new public layout. Based on comments about all the older courses, its probably the best in town. I'm not sure I care to play all these others to find out though!  ;)

Bryan_Pennington

Re: Name a major city whose best courses aren't its oldest courses
« Reply #47 on: July 03, 2008, 09:01:38 AM »
Just went back and re-read and realized that, as I was about to accuse you of changing the subject, that I made the mistake of saying "city" when I meant to say "state"

Still, the same underlying factors would prevail...that states that were largely undeveloped around the golden age of architecture (Arizona, New Mexico, Texas) wouldn't really qualify here for my point.

But when looking at places like California, New York, North Carolina, New Jersey, PA, etc...a pecking order of the great courses from 1930 would look very similar to a pecking order of today.

I suspect if you fast forward another 80 years, states like Nebraska, Oregon, Wisconsin, etc will look back on today's rankings and find themselves with similar courses at the top of their lists

And this is also interesting not only to see what cities come up, but also what some of you define as "major"

Could also rephrase this and say "Name a city whose golden age courses are not currently its best courses" and that really gets you thinking...it's easy to find a locale with great golf that nobody even thought about in 1925, but find a city with one of the GCA grandfathers' work that has since been eclipsed by newer courses.

Being from LA, I am used to having the old clubs around.  But, having moved to an area that mixes old-world settlement with new "get me out of NY" boomtown features shared with places like Phoenix, Vegas, and Austin, it's interesting to me that with ALL the development around here, people still talk about the best courses as:

Raleigh CC (1948...not the golden age, but still Raleigh's second oldest private club)
Hope Valley CC (1926 - Ross)
Pinehurst
Pine Needles
Mid Pines

Granted, this isn't an indestructable list, but here I am in an area with hundreds of courses built over the last 80 years, and it's best courses are still its oldest ones.

Same holds true in LA/California. 

_______________________________________________________________________

Ryan, every course listed above is a Ross course, all of which (except Mid Pines) have had extensive restoration efforts in the last 10 years. Our area has the typical cast of Fazio, Nicklaus, Palmer and Jones (Rees and Robert) and Maples (Ellis and Dan) designs; but the old money clubs have the $ to maintain the courses.  You might see a Fazio Hasentree gain some recognition but I doubt you will see Fazio Treyburn, Irwin TPC-Wakefield, Jones Old Chatham, Fazio UNC, or Jones Duke ever be considered better than the courses listed above. 

You can expand your list to NC and look at Charlotte, Linville Mountains and Wilmington; and you will probably pick a Ross and or old money course as best in area (Charlotte CC, Linville CC, Cape Fear CC).

In each area there are probably newer more "grand" real estate developments with golf courses, but I doubt the newer will be considered better than the older.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2008, 09:03:11 AM by Bryan Pennington »

Carl Nichols

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Re: Name a major city whose best courses aren't its oldest courses
« Reply #48 on: July 03, 2008, 09:35:26 AM »
For being the capital of the country, Washington DC does not have very many great courses.  They have very good but not great.  Congressional and Chevy Chase are as close as we get.  Four Streams is  a very good new course.  RTJ is disappointing. 

Tommy:
I agree with everything you said except that it's not obvious to me that Chevy Chase is the #2 old course in the DC area.  I like the place a lot, but I think there are others -- Columbia, maybe Bethesda, possibly others -- that are about as good.  None great, or close to great, however. 

Jed Peters

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Re: Name a major city whose best courses aren't its oldest courses
« Reply #49 on: July 03, 2008, 09:42:28 AM »
Sacramento, Ca, it is the state capitol.

Oldest but not best, Hagin Oaks-Mackenzie-destroyed by the city
                                 Del Paso CC-not much left of orig. design
Best not nec in the city but considered Sacto-Granite Bay,
                                                                        Rancho Murieta North

Del Paso CC is unquestionably the best course in Sacramento.... Built in the 20s, it's also the oldest as well.

(And Morgan Creek is way better than murieta north and granite bay)

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