Lahinch versus Ballyneal

[Jerry Kluger]

I have been following the thread about Lahinch and it appears that there are some similarities with Ballyneal - I know Ballyneal isn't on the sea like Lahinch, but the wind is a factor for both.  For that matter, it doesn't have to be Lahinch versus Ballyneal, it can be any Irish or Scottish course which may be viewed as simliar to Ballyneal in playing style and course features.  I have played Ballyeal a number of times and absolutely love it but I have not played Lahinch, etc.  It is not a question of which is better, rather, is the greatness of Ballyneal commonplace in Ireland or Scotland?

[Mark Smolens]

Yes, which for me is the reason that Ballyneal is so great. . .

[kconway]

I would say Ballyneal would be slighltly ahead of the very good courses in Ireland and Scotland, and just below the great ones like RCD.

I played BN several weeks ago and I kept thinking to myself how "links like" the golf was:  hard fairways; windy; lots of punch shots; interesting green complexes.

In addition, as compared to every links course I have played, there are no weak holes...even RCD has a flat stretch on its back nine.

I loved Lahinch, but taking the proximty to the sea and the Pubs aside,
 I think Ballyneal  is a better golf experience than Lahinch.

[Jerry Kluger]

I looked at Ran's review of RCD and you get a similar feeling that the ground game is a good choice, and that great green complexes don't need to be based on bunkers but can be based upon falloffs which require a deft touch for a quality recovery shot.

[Tom Huckaby]

KC:

Why would you take the proximity of the sea and the pubs aside?  Did they somehow cease to exist at Lahinch?

I've been to many great links, never to Ballyneal.  I'm trying to get a sense of just how great the golf course is; how fun it is to be there and play it.  And note I said golf course, not architecture... so all things count...

TH

[kconway]

Tom,

I do not mean to take the sea aside.  I love playing seaside links courses in Ireland Scotland, but Ballyneal is that good.

Besides consistently great holes, it has stunning views and vistas.  In addition, from an experience standpoint it is hard to beat:  20-30 players/day; staying in the cabins; etc.

Kelly

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom,

I do not mean to take the sea aside.  I love playing seaside links courses in Ireland Scotland, but Ballyneal is that good.

Besides consistently great holes, it has stunning views and vistas.  In addition, from an experience standpoint it is hard to beat:  20-30 players/day; staying in the cabins; etc.

Kelly

Kelly - got it!  Your comments make better sense to me now... so we can stick with Ballyneal being " slighltly ahead of the very good courses in Ireland and Scotland, and just below the great ones like RCD."

You threw me there for a minute.

Re the experience, from what I hear they seem to have modeled themselves after Sand Hills more or less, which is a very wise thing given how incredible that place is.

I shall be seeing Ballyneal in a few months.  I love links golf, and I love Sand Hills.  I have every bit of expectation that Ballyneal will fit right in with all of these.

Thanks!

TH

[Jerry Kluger]

Huck:  I think the seaside creates conditions which played into the design of the course as well as how one plays the course - Ballyneal also has quite a bit of wind which would have had the same effect.  But does the seaside itself come into play at courses like Lahinch - from what I understand, it does not.  That does not make it any lesser of a course, but is just part of the visual surrounds which can also be quite dramatic when looking out a miles of high plains at Ballyneal or Sand Hills.

[Tom Huckaby]

Huck:  I think the seaside creates conditions which played into the design of the course as well as how one plays the course - Ballyneal also has quite a bit of wind which would have had the same effect.  But does the seaside itself come into play at courses like Lahinch - from what I understand, it does not.  That does not make it any lesser of a course, but is just part of the visual surrounds which can also be quite dramatic when looking out a miles of high plains at Ballyneal or Sand Hills.

Well said and I very much agree.  I only asked the question because if one is to eliminate the sea at Lahinch (which does somewhat come into play on a few holes, but I get your point it's more about the visuals), one would also eliminate the sweeping vistas at Ballyneal or Sand Hills.  And since one does play with his eyes open, I couldn't see why one would eliminate this aspect of either course!

Thus I preferred to assess these courses with EVERYTHING included, and it appeared at first glance that Kelly didn't.  He clarified this though, so all is well.

TH

[Kyle Henderson]

Re the experience, from what I hear they seem to have modeled themselves after Sand Hills more or less, which is a very wise thing given how incredible that place is.

I shall be seeing Ballyneal in a few months.  I love links golf, and I love Sand Hills.  I have every bit of expectation that Ballyneal will fit right in with all of these.

Thanks!

TH

Ballyneal can definitely stand shoulder to shoulder with Sand Hills.

Generally (e.g. architecture aside), SH feels more expansive whereas BN's holes are more isolated (notable exceptions being holes 4 & 13), SH has simpler (and QUICKER!!!) green countours, and the 1st tee at BN is infinitely closer to the main facilities. I also think it's a bit easier to find and play a ball hit into the scrub at BN.

Both are absolute gems. My father prefers SH. I think I might lean slightly the other way, but it's a very tough call. I was blessed to experience them.

I'll post some photos and analysis shortly...

[Tom Huckaby]

Kyle - well.. that is the comparison that many here avoid... for good reasons for the most part.  There are a lot of strong feelings in favor of each course, and people take this very personally - as they should - many are connected in one way or the other to one course or the other.

I have made it very clear that I consider Sand Hills to be golf perfection - for me the best course on this planet.  It is inspiring for me to read from you, and many others, that Ballyneal either stands shoulder to shoulder with it, or even surpasses it.

In any case, this is supposed to be about how Ballyneal compares to Lahinch and other UK/Ireland links.   If you do want to post photo and analysis comparing Ballyneal to Sand Hills - the big elephant everyone knows about but no one has really tackled yet - well... I'd suggest a new thread, and putting on the fireproofs.  Feelings do run very strong and deep about this issue.

My apologies for bringing it into this thread.  I only mentioned Sand Hills because Kelly brought up the experience, and from all I read and here, that at Ballyneal is similar to that other great club in the middle of nowhere. 

TH

[Jerry Kluger]

Huck: I agree, there is no way that I intended this thread to be a comparison of Ballyneal versus Sand Hills.  My intent was to see how Ballyneal plays when compared to the courses of Ireland and Scotland, and how the features compare, not to say which is better but how they compare to each other.

[Tom Huckaby]

Huck: I agree, there is no way that I intended this thread to be a comparison of Ballyneal versus Sand Hills.  My intent was to see how Ballyneal plays when compared to the courses of Ireland and Scotland, and how the features compare, not to say which is better but how they compare to each other.

Understood, sorry about that Jerry.

Unfortunately I can't comment too much as I haven't been to Ballyneal.  But I have been to basically all the great UK/Ireland links.  Let's just say Kelly's statement is powerful to me.

TH

[Kyle Henderson]

I haven't played Lahinch, nor do I intend to contrast/compare Sand Hills with Ballyneal. I'll present them independently. But just to settle your initial inquiry, while a majority may favor one of the sand hills courses over the other, I don't think that majority will be overwhelming. That in itself is a testament to Ballyneal's worth.

I take my leave.

[Tim Pitner]

To me, Ballyneal offers such a different golf experience than Lahinch that a comparison doesn't mean a whole lot.  Lahinch offers seaside golf right smack in a quaint Irish village.  The routing is more compact and the influence of the sea is felt everywhere.  Ballyneal is a sprawling property in the middle of dry, eastern Colorado.  Yes, the ball runs at Ballyneal and there are dunes out there, but the feeling of playing Ballyneal is totally different than in Ireland. 

As far as the courses go, Ballyneal is more dramatic and more rugged.  I can't think of any fairways at Lahinch that have the same change in elevation as holes like #12 and #17 at Ballyneal.  Everything at Ballyneal is bigger than at Lahinch.  The fairways are wider at Ballyneal and the ground game might be even more of an option at Ballyneal because of all the closely mown areas around the greens.  The lush long grasses at Lahinch encroach more. 

If I were pressed to say which is the better course, I would have to say Ballyneal just because it has no weak holes and many great ones.  If I had to identify a comparatively weak hole at Ballyneal, I would nominate #9 because it has few options off the tee and is essentially a 3 wood, PW hole.  Lahinch used to have a few weak holes--I haven't played it since Hawtree's changes.  With that said, it pains me to say that any course is better than Lahinch because the total golf experience at Lahinch is second to none.

[Scott Szabo]

I shall be seeing Ballyneal in a few months. 

TH

Say it isn't so.  The esteemed Huckaby coming to my neck of the woods!!

[Tom Huckaby]

Scott -  if I am esteemed we need to redefine that word.  But yeah, I am finally getting out to Ballyneal - going with some friends in September.  I can't wait.  The sad thing is there was a time in my life when I would go out there pretty regularly.. to Colorado that is... one of my best friends lives in Denver.  Now it requires so much planning, negotiating, etc... well this is the first time in quite a few years.

Kyle - well said, my bad.

Tim - great post!  That gives me a flavor for sure.  You have Lahinch pegged.

TH

[Kalen Braley]

I shall be seeing Ballyneal in a few months. 

TH

Say it isn't so.  The esteemed Huckaby coming to my neck of the woods!!

Scott,

Just make sure you got the scotch locked up!!! 

[Scott Szabo]

Tim,

Having played Ballyneal a few times, I initially came away with the same impression of #9 as well.  However, my opinions have since changed.  The tee shot seems to lull you to sleep, as it is straightforward in a sense.  But to say there aren't options is not true.  A choice has to be made as to the club to hit off the tee.  I prefer a layup shot that won't get into the bunker on the right.  I have seen some go with a driver, but that doesn't seem like the play to me due to the undulations in the landing area past the bunker.

To this day, I have not birdied #9, one of the few at Ballyneal that has me skunked.  As a matter of fact, I have not seen it birdied as of yet.  It may be due to the fact that I choose not to challenge the bunker and then am faced with a blind wedge approach...

Scott

[Tim Pitner]

Scott,

I certainly didn't mean to say that #9 at Ballyneal is a pushover; my experience with the hole suggests quite the opposite.  But, compared to many holes at Ballyneal, the options off the tee are more limited.  Hitting any club that will go past the pinch in the fairway makes no sense--it's a total sucker play and once you've seen what the fairway does beyond the bunker, you'll likely not make that play again.  So, you're laying up off the tee and then the only options are how close to the right bunker and how far up the fairway.  It's a fairly narrow fairway.  Compared to other holes at Ballyneal, many of which feature centerline bunkers and wide fairways, the options off the tee are more restricted. 

Edit:  In your opinion, what's the least great hole at Ballyneal?  If not #9, I'm struggling to come up with one. 

[Scott Szabo]

Tim,

I see where you are coming from, and I totally agree.

#1 from the members' tee is much the same, but from the diagonal tee, a much better shot.

One of my favorites is #14.  I would be curious to hear how people are playing that one with the centerline bunker.

Scott

[Jim Colton]

Somebody ask Jon Spaulding what he thinks about #9 at Ballyneal.  It might be his favorite hole on the course.

I think if any course compares close to or favorable to Ballyneal, then by definition you're dealing with something very special.

[Doug Sobieski]

I love #9 at Ballyneal, largely because of my enjoyment hitting a running approach that lands well short on the plateau area, seeing it disappear, and then reappear hopefully near the hole. It's possibly my favorite par 4 approach. Two weekends ago, a buddy of mine simply had the strategy of busting driver up near the green and leaving himself a putter in his hands for his second. Seemed to work fairly well especially when he can easily carry the ball 280+. I was driving it so straight on that trip that I just hit driver every time right past the bunker into the wider landing area.

I still haven't figured out how I prefer to play 14. If I hit it past the center bunker, I've always had a difficult stance. I think over time I'll lay up more. My long-hitting buddy just busts it up near the green (had it at least pin high three times, and about 5 steps short of the front fringe on the left once). He says he'll take his chances every time trying to get it up and down from below the green. And downwind, there is more room directly in line with the green than one might think. Eventually, with enough tries he'll end up knocking it on.

[Scott Szabo]

Doug,

Your buddy must be long-hitting indeed.  I forego the driver simply because it leaves me with about 50-60 yards (on a calm day) with a very awkward stance.  Anything from right of center leaves an awkward pitch with the dropoff on that side of the green.

My choice of play is to lay up short and left of the centerline bunker, leaving about 120 or so in.  There is a flatter sport short of the green from that line in to bounce it in if the greens are super firm.  I tend to hit the ball lower with spin, requiring a bounced in approach, as the firm greens don't allow time for the ball to check.

In posting responses regarding Ballyneal, it struck me how defensive I play some of the shorter holes at Ballyneal.  Maybe that's why I struggle to score really well there.

[Adam Clayman]

My initial impression of #9 was that it was somewhat of a breather hole, not weak. Tom didn't think people would consider it one because of the half par nature of #'s 7 & 8.
 
But, in the scheme of Ballyneal, considering the lead up to #8, and the pumped up nature of #10, it's easy to see how some may be looking at 9 as weak.

As with all good breather holes, if one moment of an easy hole pops into the golfer's mind and proper respect is not given, the hole can eat one's lunch (dinner 'round these parts).