[Matt Kardash]

has that bunker ever injured anyone?has anyone every mistakenly fallen down the bunker?it seems like a hazard in more than one way..heeh

[SPDB]

from the tee:

[John Foley]

I'll Tip my hat to anyone who can get out of that bunker, no matter how.

Scott- Did you get the "other" courses there and close by also? Would love to see those also, but you may be saving them.

[Mike Nuzzo]

The Dave Pelz episode on TGC where he demonstrates how to hit from down in there is great.
I don't remember which green it was over.  

[Dan Kelly]

Where's CuriousJJ when we need him?

Bring It On Bitch!

It'd be fun to see someone fly a cart right into that bunker.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Matt,
Here you go, not great, but you get the idea.  I have lots of pictures of the course.

Sean,
When was your picture taken?  Nice picture.

[Matt Kardash]

dan, we need johnny knoxville from that show jackass to fly a cart into the bunker from the green...that's exactly the type of things they do on that show..it would be beautifull..hehe

[Scott_Burroughs]

I knew this one would generate some discussion, but WOW!  
Some genuine feelings on it by quite a few.

This is the TPC Stadium course at PGA West, in La Quinta,
CA, designed by the "Dyeabiolical" Pete Dye.  Famous for
kicking anyone's a$$es, including the Tour pros.  The
western home of the PGA hosted the Skins Game from 1986-
1991 and was a course for the 1987 Bob Hope.  Also hosted
Legends of Golf in '95-'96.  Proved to be too hard for
the "sissy" Tour players in '87, and thus moved.  When it
first hosted the Skins game, there was nary a house
anywhere.  Also, Trevino aced #17 during one Skins game.

The other 5 courses at PGA West include 2 by Nicklaus, and
one each by Norman, Weiskopf, and Palmer.  The Palmer
course is part of the Bob Hope rota, and is where Duval shot
the infamous 59 on Sunday to win in '98 (?).

other clues include:

"The Rock" is the nickname of Alcatraz, and the 17th island
green hole is named Alcatraz.

"Faulty" refers to the 16th hole, whose name is "San Andreas
Fault"

Hotel chain in town = "La Quinta" hotels.

Here's the layout (south on top):







here's the web site, with a few pics, and the video (no
sound) of Trevino's ace on Alcatraz:

http://www.pgawest.com/golf/TPCIntro.asp


John F:  I did not capture the other courses here.

[Gib_Papazian]

It has never been altogether clear to me why PGA West is considered so impossibly fearsome.

As a matter of fact, I do not even consider the Stadium the most difficult course at PGA West!

Now, this assumes that none of you is stupid enough to play the tips - which is an exercise in insanity. Even Wigler and shivas would have a hard time reaching the fairway on holes like #2.

However, if you play something reasonable, like the Blue Tees (6500 yards or so?), what is so tough about the golf course?

Yes, there is absolute death somewhere on every single hole, but if you ignore the trouble and look for a safe spot to hit it, there is an enormous amount of bail-out area all the way around the course.

The pit of perdition at the back left of #14 is easily avoided if you just play the yardage and nudge one to the right center of the green.

How about the 16th? With all the ooohing and ahhhhing at the bunker to the left, you have all of North America to the right to hit your tee shot. Lay up with an intelligent 4-iron and all that is left is a 100 yard shot to wide-open green.

And the infamous west coast Island Green? There is an enormous difference between TPC Sawgrass where the target is on the same level and PGA West, where you are looking directly down at an enormous green with no more than a mid-iron in your hand. It is an easy shot!    

The way this golf course gets you is the same way Pine Valley does. It presents you with an evil monster, but if you really examine the hole, the monster is always on a short leash and easily avoided provided you DO NOT TAKE THE BAIT AND GET GREEDY.

And like Pine Valley, if played from the proper tees, PGA Stadium is far more difficult for the average player than a good one who recognizes his limitations.

If you are prone to flaming one or two a round, its  impossible to extricate yourself unscathed, but any single digit with good ball control ought to be able to easily break 80.  

With the caveat, of course, that testosterone crazed bombers do not decide to lock horns with Pete Dye from tees he himself told me "Are for PGA Tour players only, not amateurs, not club professionals, not even collegiate players."

You might as well just go beat your head against the wall 18 times . . . . but is that supposed to be enjoyment? What fun is it trying to hit a 3-wood into an elevated green surrounded by pot bunkers?  What is the point? Machisimo?

Sometimes you just have to step back and admit that something has waaaay more p*ssy than you got d*ck.

If you ask me, Winged Foot West is still the hardest test of golf I've ever played. . . . and I couldn't break 80 on the Nicklaus Resort Course if my life depended on it.

But the Stadium? With an ounce of brains it is far easier than it appears.  

[THuckaby2]

Well if you ask me Muirfield in the wind I had, or Portmarnock in the gale I had, or Shinnecock at any time from the tips... those are the toughest tests I've ever played.

Yes, PGA West Stadium is a joy from the white tees - that's part of its brilliance, really.

But yes, Pete is right - from the TIPS, it is a beast tougher than any I mention above, because I sure as hell am not the type of player those tees are meant for.

But I have played those tees.  Twice.  And you also know well I am no seething cauldron of machismo.  So why get beat up like that?

Because it's there.. it's so beyond brutal, it was fun.  Heck yeah, I couldn't reach the fairway on 2, nor could I reach the green on 8... but it didn't stop me from trying... it was fun and I had to find creative places to try and leave the ball.

This same logic goes for Bayonet as it used to be.  I never played anything BUT tips there - why go to a course who's sole raison d'etre is brutishness and soften it?  What's accomplished?

The same logic held for those two times I played the tips at PGA West Stadium.  Thankfully, I played it several more times from the whites, and yes it was fun, but no it wasn't a completely severe test.

And even more thankfully, this "tee ego" doesn't exist for me anywhere else.  Give me the purple challengers if that's what the group wants to do, thank you very much.  And no, I do NOT advocate this as a general rule and you are darn right people should in general go nowhere near these tees.

Just forgive me these few times, ok?

In any case, I do get your point.  The course is brutal from the back tees for yokels like me cuz I'm not meant to play those tees, it's just too much course.

But can't the same be said for Shinnecock?

TH

[Dan Grossman]

Gib -

I didn't find the Nicklaus Tournament course to be that hard.  We played it from 6700 yards and it was very managable.  I haven't played the Stadium course, so I don't know how it compares.  But I thought Pasatiempo was tougher than the Nicklaus course.

What did you find that was so difficult?  Was it due to the Aerial nature of the course?

[Gib_Papazian]

Precisely. I would not say that the Nicklaus Resort is impossible for most players, but for me it is an insurmountable challenge.

My tee shots tend to run a long way and those flat terraced fairways with abrupt, angular drop-offs leave me no possibility of a recovery shot.

The approach shots are an endless cycle of forced carries to elevated greens, with insufficient room to stop the ball.

There are plenty of spots at PGA West Stadium where you can utilize the contours of the ground to direct your ball. On the Nicklaus Resort course, it is aerial or nothing. That 6800 yard course plays like 7100 for a low ball hitter.

I feel like my creativity is useless on that track, just as it is at  WF West because there are really no options. Either hit the shot called for, or else. And "or else" is always a deep bunker shot to a slender putting surface.

The  Stadium at 6800 yards is far easier because there is a place to miss on most every hole.

[GeoffreyC]

My favorite memory of PGA West   especially after Ran profiled me at Fenway and Beechtree. To quote a playing partner that day "apparently Ran overestimated how far he could carry the ball.  Closeup to follow from Mike Cirba.

[Will E]

Put me down as being one who loves this course, I've hung out here a lot and never saw the range in that shade of copper though.
Like many great courses the routing here is wonderful, coming in after 14 is quite a treat when the wind is blowing.
I've mentioned before that as one who is usually turned off by playing down rows of condos I never really notice them here.

Gib, I'll agree with you that the course isn't as tough as some think it, I've actually scored well here at times. BUT, you've got to admit that visually nothing compares to it.
Could you name a course that could create more nightmares?  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

It seems as least once a year we have to have our PGA West-Stadium Course discussion, why not in regarding an aerial of the day!

PGA West Stadium is all of the reasons for some of us to hate a golf course for. It's totally manufactured and even when it didn't have houses on it, looked out of place. Mind you that the majority of this area at one time was some pretty cool sand dunes.

 Playing from the white tees is a totally miss on why one would even want to play the Stadium. I have described it as an "E" ticket, the way patrons used to handle paying for the best rides at Disneyland, and even have been so bold to say that it is worth seeing once every two to three years. (I have in fact both played and toured PGA West Stadium five times [three plays-two tours) in the last three years, and I can say that I'm full at the moment. But it is like a painful full, almost liked being stuffed!)

This is not a course you would want to play on even a part-time basis. But it is a highly-entertaining golf course. Is it Great? No, abslutely not. In my opinion, it is a good golf course, plain and simple, and a bit difficult if you are having the slightest bit of trouble in any category of one's game.

This is where PGA West-Stadium shines best--exposing one's weaknesses at that paticular time. You can never let your guard down!

[redanman]

I have nothing but good things to say about this place.
 It is one of the most exciting places to play and I
eagerly look forward to playing it anytime.  There are
lots of shots required and yes, it is penal, but why care?

Play with old balls if you're really anal and maybe you won't
care about your score, but I actually have played the course
 quite well in spite of being a player who is a bit wild off the tee.  The architecture makes me think and stimulates me.

I find the architecture very innovative and stimulating but
would like the place as a modern marvel even if I had never broken 80 there.  It as with most Dye courses is important to
choose appropriate tees, but the desert climate allows a
straighter ball and one less club than sea level.

I can't wait to play this pup again and I agree with the comments that the houses are much less obtrusive than
at Troon North (Both) even though the aerial suggests otherwise.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Tommy,
I read a couple of times where you mention sand dunes which were in place prior to the construction of a course in the PS area. While that is true in some cases, mainly in the wind belt area, with the exception of Rancho La Quinta, none of the courses built in La Quinta had any dunes in place prior to construction. PGA west was alfalfa fields, abandoned date orchards, and some other abandoned farm land that was dead ass flat when the land was acquired for the development. That area hasn't been dunes for a long, long time. Now Rancho La Quinta had some of the coolest dunes possible for golf, as did quite a bit of the land used for Heritage Palms. Some of the other courses to the east also had dunes, but they weren't as dramatic and were more of a sandy, gravely mix. The dunes at the Rancho La Quinta were large, rolling dunes that could have been stabilized with the addition of some native grasses and shrubs and light irrigation. They would have still created blowing sand when the wind blows and you know it blows often and hard. That and houses don't mix and that's my guess why not a single course in the area  left any dunes in their native state.

[Will E]

Tommy,
What makes PGA West less than great? Based upon the terrain that Don described would you say that it would have been impossible to create a great course here? Perhaps we should define what "great" is. Would you say that it may not be possibe to create great, that great only comes from the natural land pre construction? What do you think could have been done (if anything) to make this course great?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Don,
I guess I might be even speaking of some of the interesting terrain that is just North of PGA West, and now compromises Country Club of the Desert. It may have not been total A+ quality dunes as you have mentioned about Rancho La Quinta, And we are not just talking about the RTJ II course but the Jerry Pate course as well, which were A+ dunes)

I seem to remember the PGA West area to be a menagerie of more mild dunes, date palm orchards and just dead flat land, but that was so many years ago, and who am I to argue with a local?

Shooter,
We all have very differrent eyes which we see things. My eyes and tastes are sometimes a bit more snobby and most of the time can get me in trouble.

For a golf course to be GREAT, it has to embody a lot of principles from the GREAT courses of the British Isles. These are the courses that taught us the game and how it is/was supposed to be played--the features of these courses and the way to utilize them are the spinal column of strategic play. They are both naturally formed and naturally refined, meaning that over a period of time, evolution is a master stroke in the ability to project even further man-made features that have been refined or at least partially inspired from natural occurances. It can be the most barren of deserts to the most pristine forested parkland--a golf course has to breath like its natural surroundings to be GREAT. (Picture Talking Stick North and then Banff. Then picture Pine Valley and then Cypress Point. These are GREAT courses that utilize their natural surroundings to the fullest, and it is a broad spectrum of tastes.)

 A GREAT golf course is one that take complete advantage of its natural surroundings by taking advantage of its natural beauty. Even Dr. MacKenzie teaches us this in The Spirit of St. Andrews. It offers thrilling and intriguing play in forms of deception and perception. This maybe the best evidence I have in describing how housing devlopments don't work when it is situated on the golf course in sight, in plain view.--this is why PGA West doesn't work for many--the housing.

But, even with the housing, I can say, and always have that PGA West is one of my favorites in regards in its abilities to entertain. Everyone always knows they are going to have their hat handed to them, and the ones that think otherwise usually hate the course beyond repair. Its a wonderfully constructed golf course, fun to play but, and even more, a testament to the men who shaped all of those mounds.

Most of the people that are members at PGA West as well as people frequent the desert regulary don't like playing it all of the time. Why is this? I can only say that because of the recipe of the course itself, getting beat-up is not always the best entertainment. the course is designed mastefully by someone that knew how to pray on any weakness, anytime during the round.

In a movie analogy, Citizen Kane is a GREAT movie, while Men In Black is a good one. It can never be described in the same class of GREATNESS as Citizen Kane because of the very different architecture of the two movies, although I think both movies are entertaining. Would you find that the two are comparable? Coinsdier that Citizen Kane is a masterpiece in most movie critques simply because it just wasn't ground breaking cinema, it was also controversial. Look at some of the camera angles and close-ups that Wells used. It was perfect, and even in that time, he could have made the film in color, only chosing to buck the movie moguls of the day and making it in every shade of gray, from the blackest black to brightest white, possible.

That is my view of GREAT, GOOD, MEDIOCRE, and of course, BAD.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I forgot to answer one of your questions--

What would have made PGA West Stadium a better course? Without doubt no housing, or at least much more conservative housing, well hidden in some of the beautiful dunes that once existed at Rancho La Quinta. Pete Dye on natural sandy dunes, creating one of the most terrifying course of all time.

Now that would have been something!

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