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Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Somerset Hills restoration!
« on: June 29, 2002, 08:00:38 PM »
Just was out to play Somerset Hills and learned first hand that they are "considering" doing some restoration work on their golf course.  Biggest aspect of the work will probably be tree removal.  They have "one of their members" consulting on the work.  I'd trust him  :)  
Mark
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Somerset Hills restoration!
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2002, 08:09:45 PM »
Mark Fine,

How much of AWT original work has been changed over the years ?

Is it wishful thinking to call tree clearing a "restoration",
or is there more involved ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Somerset Hills restoration!
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2002, 08:41:32 PM »
I jogged the course numerous times late in the summer evenings when I worked at the U.S.G.A. 1985-1987. My best recollection is that all the green pads are (at least almost) true to AWT's intent and I don't recall evidence of bunkers that had been filled in. Perhaps felling trees is all that is required? Many of the ornamental evergreens on the front side could go and I could imagine that the air flow/sunlight could be improved on the wooded holes on the back (especially 11-15).

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: Somerset Hills restoration!
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2002, 05:54:35 AM »
I sure don't know what's been changed at Somerset Hills over the years from original Tillinghast but I see C&W mentions Hal Purdy but of course it doesn't say what he did (could have been almost nothing). I think I recall from my only time there about a year or so ago that someone mentioned Rees Jones had made some changes--maybe around #9 and apparently changes have been made down on the greenend on #15 with all that stone wall stuff at the creek!? I think I remember someone saying changes had been made or were going to be on #16 green too.

It would be very interesting to know what Somerset has in mind for a restoration though. In my opinoin, one of the most unusual things about Somerset is their greens and the extensive area of them that's apparently unpinnable!

Certainly large sections of #5 are and large sections of #13 must be and I can't imagine they could possibly pin the front half of #2 given the greenspeeds they were using when I saw the place.

So this issue would be very interesting to me. I certainly hope they don't plan to soften the contours of the greens but I would like to know what, if anything, they plan to do about that. From what I could see it appeared maybe 30-40% of their greenspace could be unpinnable at present speeds!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Somerset Hills restoration!
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2002, 09:45:16 AM »
MarK

Somerset Hills is a real treat.

Which member will be doing the consultation on the restoration work?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

TEPaul

Re: Somerset Hills restoration!
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2002, 10:09:03 AM »
Wouldn't you suppose the member doing the consulting would be Rees Jones? He's the member doing the consulting on the Maidstone I believe!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Somerset Hills restoration!
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2002, 10:22:34 AM »
I didn't know Rees was in at SH, I always assumed in NJ he was only at Montclair. It wouldn't surprise me though, considering he is a member at both Maidstone and NGLA.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Somerset Hills restoration!
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2002, 11:07:06 AM »
TEPaul,

Are you sure Rees is a member ?

I can't imagine SH doing much of anything to the golf course, other than tree clearing, and reversing the nines.

Although, # 1 was always an awkward, if not dangerous hole,
especially for those putting on # 3 green.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: Somerset Hills restoration!
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2002, 01:09:50 PM »
Rees Jones is a member everywhere! He's a member of all of your clubs although you might not know about it yet.

Didn't Rees already do some bunker work along the left side of Somerset Hill's #9 a few years ago?

Didn't you know Rees is a member of Pine Valley? Technically Tom Fazio is the official in-house architect but in the club's ongoing spirit of collaboration both Rees and fellow member Ben Crenshaw also consult!

Pat:

Somerset's #10 is much more of a conversation piece than #1. On #10 you have to find your drive amongst a ton of practice balls on the ground before getting killed by one in the air!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:07 PM by -1 »
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SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Somerset Hills restoration!
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2002, 01:47:47 PM »
Tom -
Don't you mean Gulph Mills #10?   ;) ;D ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Somerset Hills restoration!
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2002, 08:27:24 PM »
Based in his track record -- Baltusrol, Congressional, Equinox, Hollywood, Lake Merced, Monterey Peninsula, Ridgewood, CC of Virginia, Bethpage-Black and East Lake -- is Rees the right man for the job at Maidstone and Somerset Hills? Or might these courses be in need of a redesign more than restoration?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Mike_Cirba

Re: Somerset Hills restoration!
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2002, 08:32:55 PM »
Mark,

Are you pulling our collective legs, or just trying to play devil's advocate?

Someone told me that Rees flat out refused to do any substantive work on Maidstone, simply because of his love for the course.  Frankly, that story added considerably to my respect for him as a person and golfer.

I haven't played Somerset, but frankly, "redesigning" Maidstone would be a travestly and a mistake.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: Somerset Hills restoration!
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2002, 05:46:11 AM »
Actually, I've only been to Somerset Hills one time and just after finishing the round I ran into an old friend of mine I hadn't seen in about 25 years--great guy! He said he was the Golf Chairman or the just past Golf Chairman and I think I do recall him saying they were planning on doing some restoration work on the course. I don't remember if he said when they were planning on doing it or what they were planning on doing--maybe I'll call him and ask him.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: Somerset Hills restoration!
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2002, 05:48:56 AM »
Tom MacW:

Whether some of these courses are looking to restore or redesign, the reality is whether they think Rees Jones is the right man for the job.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: Somerset Hills restoration!
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2002, 06:01:19 AM »
MikeC:

Neither Maidstone nor Rees is going to be doing any "redesigning" (I hope). Rees really does love that course. They were getting a little beyond what Hook was willing to get into so they decided to look to consult an architect. They were looking to consult either Gil or one other and at the last minute the Green Chairman who thought Rees might have his own "hands off" policy as a member decided to ask the President to ask Rees if that was true. Apparently Rees said he would be glad to consult.

Maidstone will be just fine! Most of what they plan to do are my recommendations anyway (smiley)!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Somerset Hills restoration!
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2002, 06:09:31 AM »
If a golf course's former architectural qualities are beyond restoration then it is advisable to hire a talented architect to carry out a redesign. I think Lake Merced may have been in this catagory. And Medinah's numerous redesigns at the hands of nearly every Chicagoland architect might call for an architect to unify the design. There are many who like Rees Jones's new work and its difficult to fault anyone for hiring him for this kind of work - it boils down to a matter of tastes.

Pure restoration is another story. He has been given quite a few high profile projects where restoration would have been the preferred course, or was the preferred course, yet he interjected redesign. And when he has attempted to restore lost features it is debatable if they were executed accurately. That trend bothers me, there is only so much great old architecure remaining and it is discouraging when it is redesigned over or inaccurately restored. What do you make of his work on Flynn's CC of Virginia?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: Somerset Hills restoration!
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2002, 06:23:31 AM »
Tom MacW:

If you're asking me about C.C. of Virginia, I don't know it but we will probably be seeing it one of these days.

As for restorers or redesigners, I tend to think the best of them are those that are really into the nuts and bolts of resortoration work--from real detailed research to the actual work. There appear to be about a good half dozen of them! Not sure where Rees fits in to that spectrum in the broad scheme of things but clubs will do what they want to do!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Somerset Hills restoration!
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2002, 06:30:53 AM »
The member "advising" at Somerset Hills is Ben Crenshaw!  I'm ok with his thoughts on what they should do  ;)

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: Somerset Hills restoration!
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2002, 07:21:04 AM »
MarK:

Oh my God, you just made my day Pal! Do you think that fact will make PatM think this constitutes "bias" somehow?

Crenshaw advising at Somerset---that's wonderful! Think there's any possibility a course down in Georgia might take note of this?

Ben Crenshaw as the lifelong adviser to the Masters! It's one of the all time no brainers in all of golf architecture, in my opinion!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:07 PM by -1 »
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Mike_Cirba

Re: Somerset Hills restoration!
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2002, 07:33:06 AM »
Tom Paul,

Thanks for the update on Maidstone & Somerset!    

Now, what exactly did you advise them to do?  ;)

Mark Fine;

Thanks for scaring the bejeesus out of me.  Sheesh!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Somerset Hills restoration!
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2002, 08:30:03 AM »
Its encouraging if Rees refused to do any substansive work at Maidstone. Architects are easily criticized for what they did and are rarely given credit for what they didn't do.

And hopefully the hire of Crenshaw at SH is also a positive development - I get the impression he has very light touch when it comes to advising these old clubs.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: Somerset Hills restoration!
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2002, 09:15:36 AM »
MikeC:

My recommendation for Maidstone I was sort of joking about on that post but actually I did make a couple of recommendations to the green or golf chairman in the last year or two.

Both were only maintenance related really and the first one they may have done. It was to widen the fairway over the bunker on the left on #11 so anyone challenging that bunker would be in fairway--they extended the tee enough within the last five years to make challenging that particular bunker something that is a challenge to many now. The interesting thing about that hole and the way it gently curves left is from the tee it looks like the best way to go is over that bunker (that's a good thing and quite deceptive) but when you get out there you can see driving right of it makes little difference in your approach.

The other recommendation (I really believe in) is to widen the fairway on #2 on the second half right up next to the OB!! If you look carefully at the green orientation of that Road Hole green it orients to OB so logically the easiest third shot in there would be from as close to OB right as possible. The green chairman thought that was very interesting!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Mike_Cirba

Re: Somerset Hills restoration!
« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2002, 09:26:30 AM »
Tom,

I like your mowing recommendations a lot.

You're right, on 11 there is no real advantage to taking on that bunker, although the way the hole swings one tends to get "pulled" into challenging the leftside.  

I really, really, really like #2, and can picture it even better with fairway extending to the OB.    
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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david eger

Re: Somerset Hills restoration!
« Reply #23 on: July 09, 2002, 11:41:28 AM »
When did Crenshaw become a member?  He wasn't when I belonged there.

Just to set the record straight, there has been only one major architectual change at SHCC brought on by machines and humans: Number 10 was changed from a par 4 to 5 about 30 years ago...the green was moved back about 50 yards.  Additional tees were added on the 3rd, 6th, 12th and 14th holes a couple of years ago and recently the club has re-introduced tees that AWT supposedly had built for the 8th and 13th holes.  Frank Hannigan was used (he's been a member there for 30 years or so) to try and recapture the green perimeters that over the years had been lost due to mowing practices.

Insofar as the second green, the back portion has simply sunken.  There has been much talk (by non members) about raising it, but it's been awful for at least 10 years.

Most of the fairway contours and widths were changed by PJ Boatwright for the 1990 Curtis Cup Match and three of them are contrary to playing tee shots into fairways (nos. 7, 9 and 18).

The club has in the last two years eliminated many trees and also tried to recapture some fairway widths (nos. 3, 4, 5, 6 and 17).  The club will continue to evaluate the trees and eliminate whatever ones they feel would benefit the vistas of the course.

Rees Jones has been to SHCC but unless it has been VERY recent, is not involved in any plans to work on the course.

Has anyone ever thought to call Dan Colvin about this before speculating?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Somerset Hills restoration!
« Reply #24 on: July 09, 2002, 11:54:32 AM »
David:

Thanks for setting the record straight.

SH is wonderful and is like a living museum of classical golf architecture.  I hope no one ruins that!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG
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