[TEPaul]

Dan:

For a number of years now I've felt there was some truly amazing philosophical ideas in architecture emanating out of that West Coast contingent of that time, but that for a few reasons perhaps to do with timing or just the coming together of other contributing events their ideas got sidetracked or waylaid into the realm of misunderstanding or lack of appreciation. But I don't think it was just theory as there are those totally interesting vestiges of it that may include the original architectural conception and philosophy behind the design of ANGC.

The philosophical and conceptual idea behind ANGC has always been said to be TOC, but it may've been that via the freethinking ideas out of California and of those California School architects of that time.

Maybe it was something like the evolution of wine and grapes and the interrelationship of vines between France and California!   

The philosophies and basic architectural principles of TOC AS filtered through the radical minds of a couple of truly freethinking Californian golf architects!! 

How about that!?! Those guys and what they may've been thinking and what they may've been up to totally fascinates me.

Were some of them half crazy at that point? They probably were but in an ultra creative way. Did you know that Mackenzie wrote a letter to President Roosevelt telling him that if he could just come and see him and explain to him his ideas on how to perfectly camouflage military trenches it would very likely prevent all future wars and thereby save mankind!?!

Roosevelt apparently never answered him.  When Oppenheimer actually came to the Oval office pleading with Roosevelt to consider the downside of nucleur physics if misapplied apparently Roosevelt virtually had him removed from the Oval Office as he didn't want to hear any more ramblings of some mad scientist! 

On the other hand, one of the presidents, perhaps Roosevelt or Truman, was lobbied by Curtis LeMay (head of the US Air Force) that a really neat idea would be to strap little highly explosive devices to bats and just airdrop them out of B-29s over Japan or whatever! So I guess presidents do have a lot of wild opinions to deal with from time to time. 

[Dan King]

TEPaul, I think you might be right, but unfortunately I'm away from all my books. I seem to remember reading something from Hunter, Behr, Thomas or Mackenzie about eastern golf being dominated by the Pine Valley effect, with each course playing down its own corridor, and their desire to build inland courses with the openness of Scottish links. The good news is Hunter, Behr, Thomas and Mackenzie were all proficient writers, so it shouldn't be too hard to find this in their words. I remember reading something about Pasatiempo and Bobby Jones on opening day being impressed with the wide open combined first and ninth hole and how much it reminded him of TOC. Mackenzie said that was his inspiration for Pasatiempo. Hard to believe with its tree lined fairways now, that at one time it reminded someone of TOC.

Here is a very interesting article I found in American Golfer:
Plans for the Ideal Golf Course(pdf) by Alister Mackenzie.

I'm including a long quote from this article below, because I enjoy this paragraph.

Cheers,
Dan King

The acid test for a golf course is its abiding popularity. And here we are up against a real difficulty. Does the average golfer know what he really likes himself? When he plays well he praises the course, but, if his score is a high one, the vigor of his language would put to shame a  Regimental Sergeant Major. It is usually the best holes that are condemned most vehemently by those who fail to solve their strategy. Bob Jones realizes this so strngly that when asked his opinion about the design of Augusta National, he said the course would differ so markedly from others, that many of the members at first would have unpleasant things to say about the architects. A few years ago I would have agreed with Bob, but today, owing to his own teaching, the work and writings of C.B. Macdonad, Max Behr, Robert Hunter, and others, Americans appreciate real strategic golf to a greater extent than even in Scotland, the Home of Golf.
 --Alister Mackenzie (writing about Augusta National during construction.)

[TEPaul]

But Dan, perhaps the most brilliant foreign policy idea of my entire life-time was when the US Government (probably the CIA) tried to enlist the US Mafia to knock off Castro and thereby overthrown Cuba.

The truth is the US governement would have let the mafia do that but that pigheaded Sam Giancana made them a deal they basically had to refuse. He said he and his cohort in New Orleans would take care of Castro and Cuba but the quid pro quo was they'd have to be guaranteed immunity from all future criminal prosecution!  

[TEPaul]

"The good news is Hunter, Behr, Thomas and Mackenzie were all proficient writers, so it shouldn't be too hard to find this in their words. I remember reading something about Pasatiempo and Bobby Jones on opening day being impressed with the wide open combined first and ninth hole and how much it reminded him of TOC. Mackenzie said that was his inspiration for Pasatiempo. Hard to believe with its tree lined fairways now, that at one time it reminded someone of TOC."


Dan:

It actually is in the words of Behr's articles, there is no escaping it if one simply looks to catch it. It isn't even nuancy---he pretty much just comes right out and says it and he also said Alister Mackenzie agreed.

[Thomas MacWood]

Cypress Point - 1928 MacKenzie/Hunter

Pebble Beach - 1919 Neville/Grant, 1921? Fowler, 1927? Mackenzie, 1929 Egan/Hunter/et al

Pasatiempo - 1929 Mackenzie

Riviera - 1926 Thomas/Bell

Los Angeles (North) - 1921 Fowler, 1927 Thomas/Bell

Bel-Air - 1927 Thomas/Bell

Ojai Valley - 1924 Thomas/Bell

San Francisco - 1918 Lock?, 1920 & 24 Tillinghast, 1930 Bell

Olympic (Lake) - 1924 Watson, 1927 Whiting

Olympic (Ocean) - 1924 Watson, 1927 Whiting

Meadow Club - 1927 Mackenzie

Stanford - 1930 Bell/Thomas

Monterey Peninsula - 1925 Raynor, 1926 Hunter/MacKenzie

Lake Merced -  1922 Lock, 1929 Mackenzie

Califronia GC of SF - 1918 Macan, 1929 Mackenzie

Harding Park - 1925 Watson

Sharp Park - 1929 Mackenzie

Orinda - 1925 Watson

Sonoma - 1927 Watson/Whiting

Castlewood - 1923 Bell

Claremont - ? Watson, 1929 Mackenzie

Berkeley - 1920 Watson/Hunter

Valley Club of Montecito - 1929 Mackenzie/Hunter

Lakeside - 1924 Behr

Montebello Park - 1928 Behr

La Cumbre - 1917 Bendelow, 1925 Thomas/Bell

Royal Palms - 1925 Bell

Lake Elsinore - 1925 Dunn

Lake Norconian - 1928 Dunn

Griffith Park - 1923 Thomas

Fox Hills - 1927 Thomas/Bell

Sunset Fields (No.1 + No.2) - 1927 Bell

El Caballero - 1928 Bell

Annandale - 1906 Watson/O'Neil, 1919 Watson, 1923 Bell/Croke

Pasadena - 1920 O'Neil/Croke

Brookside - 1930 Bell

Midwick - 1911 Macbeth, 1929 Bell

Rancho - 1921 Fowler

Wilshire - 1919 Macbeth

Hillcrest - 1922 Watson

Hacienda - 1920 Watson, ? Behr

Flintridge - 1921 Watson

San Diego - 1922 Watson

Rancho Santa Fe - 1929 Behr

Agua Caliente - 1929 Bell

[Sean_Tully]

-----------------------Tom here are my additions to your list.


Cypress Point - 1928 MacKenzie/Hunter

Pebble Beach - 1919 Neville/Grant, 1921? Fowler, 1927? Mackenzie, 1929 Egan/Hunter/et al

-----------------------Fowler was 1920  and  and 1929 was Egan/Hunter/Lapham

Pasatiempo - 1929 Mackenzie

Riviera - 1926 Thomas/Bell

Los Angeles (North) - 1921 Fowler, 1927 Thomas/Bell

Bel-Air - 1927 Thomas/Bell

----------I have seen Jack Neville attached to it as well.

Ojai Valley - 1924 Thomas/Bell

San Francisco - 1918 Lock?, 1920 & 24 Tillinghast, 1930 Bell

-------------------------I have new information on the early history of the course, but will contact the club before I share it with too many people. Lock is a good guess as he was brought in as the Pro and was involved in the construction of the course, but it was mostly done before he got there.-----------------------



Olympic (Lake) - 1924 Watson, 1927 Whiting

----------------------Whiting was making changes as soon as he got to Olympic, mostly following the plans from Watson, but after a while there was no more mention of Watson just Whiting.-----------------------

Olympic (Ocean) - 1924 Watson, 1927 Whiting

Meadow Club - 1927 Mackenzie


----------and Hunter too!-----------

Stanford - 1930 Bell/Thomas


-----------Mostly Bell, Thomas was sick and only looked at the Topos and assisted in locating green sites from LA.------------

Monterey Peninsula - 1925 Raynor, 1926 Hunter/MacKenzie

-------with some input from Egan---------

Lake Merced -  1922 Lock, 1929 Mackenzie

-------and Hunter too! 1928 though.---------

Califronia GC of SF - 1918 Macan, 1929 Mackenzie

---------------Cal CLub was formed at the old SFG and CC after they moved to their current site. The current Cal Club course was first laid out by Willie Lock. Macan was brought in to finish it and MacKenzie and Hunter reworked the bunkers in 1927.

Harding Park - 1925 Watson

-----------Whiting was involved and took over for Watson when he resigned!!!!!

Sharp Park - 1929 Mackenzie

Orinda - 1925 Watson

Sonoma - 1927 Watson/Whiting

-----------------More Whiting than Watson. Have never seen Watson's name associated with the course.

Castlewood - 1923 Bell

-----------I don't have my info with me but that it not the right date.--------

Claremont - ? Watson, 1929 Mackenzie

----------Watson 1920 major reworking of the routing
MacKenzie was probably more like 1928--------------

Berkeley - 1920 Watson/Hunter

Valley Club of Montecito - 1929 Mackenzie/Hunter

Lakeside - 1924 Behr

Montebello Park - 1928 Behr

La Cumbre - 1917 Bendelow, 1925 Thomas/Bell

Royal Palms - 1925 Bell

Lake Elsinore - 1925 Dunn

Lake Norconian - 1928 Dunn

Griffith Park - 1923 Thomas

Fox Hills - 1927 Thomas/Bell

Sunset Fields (No.1 + No.2) - 1927 Bell

El Caballero - 1928 Bell

Annandale - 1906 Watson/O'Neil, 1919 Watson, 1923 Bell/Croke

Pasadena - 1920 O'Neil/Croke

Brookside - 1930 Bell

Midwick - 1911 Macbeth, 1929 Bell

Rancho - 1921 Fowler

Wilshire - 1919 Macbeth

Hillcrest - 1922 Watson

Hacienda - 1920 Watson, ? Behr

Flintridge - 1921 Watson

San Diego - 1922 Watson

Rancho Santa Fe - 1929 Behr

Agua Caliente - 1929 Bell

[Rich Goodale]

Dan

Interesting in the Mackenzie article how many of the par-4's he thought would be played most successfully with a run-up shot (e.g. 7, 14 and 17).  In ~50 years of watching the Masters on TV I can't remember a single run-up shot to any hole played by any player.  Did the maintenance prohibit this or was Mackenzie mistaken as to how the elite golfers played the game?

Rich

[Jim Nugent]

Also interesting in Mac's article about ANGC:

"The majority (of greens) will be mildly rolling, while a few will be decidedly so." 

I don't think many people would say most of ANGC's greens are mildly rolling.  Who made the greens what they are today, and why? 

[TEPaul]

DanK:

I have not seen before those remarks of Mackenzie's you inluded in post #51. I think that adds a lot more corroboration and evidence to what those guys were thinking at that time.

To me, even more interesting are some of the things that Joshua Crane was thinking at this same time. It seems to me we can see (particularly from his article recently posted on The Lido) that there were many similarities in his philosophical thinking about architecture with the contingent of Behr/Mackenzie/Jones et al but there definitely were some very notable differences, perhaps the primary one being Crane's idea of maximum or perhaps total visibility in golf architecture. Also, this idea which Crane frequently refers to as "control" is most definitely a departure from the philosophies of Behr, Mackenzie and Jones. I think Crane's idea of "control" goes right to the heart of what "penalty" should be in golf and architecture and the fact is those others were very much of a vastly different opinion on that most important concept in golf and architecture.

[Thomas MacWood]

Sean
What changes did Whiting make at Olympic?

Cypress Point - 1928 MacKenzie/Hunter

Pebble Beach - 1919 Neville/Grant, 1920 Fowler, 1927 Mackenzie, 1929 Egan/Hunter/et al

Pasatiempo - 1929 Mackenzie

Riviera - 1926 Thomas/Bell

Los Angeles (North) - 1921 Fowler, 1927 Thomas/Bell

Bel-Air - 1927 Thomas/Bell/Neville

Ojai Valley - 1924 Thomas/Bell

San Francisco - 1918 Neville?, 1920 Tillinghast, 1930 Bell

Olympic (Lake) - 1924 Watson, 1927 Whiting

Olympic (Ocean) - 1924 Watson, 1927 Whiting

Meadow Club - 1927 Mackenzie/Hunter

Stanford - 1930 Bell/Thomas

Monterey Peninsula - 1925 Raynor, 1926 Hunter/MacKenzie/Egan

Lake Merced -  1922 Lock, 1929 Mackenzie

Califronia GC of SF - 1918 Lock, 1920 Macan, 1927 Mackenzie/Hunter

Harding Park - 1925 Watson

Sharp Park - 1929 Mackenzie

Orinda - 1925 Watson

Sonoma - 1927 Whiting/Watson?

Castlewood - 1927 Bell

Claremont - 1903 Smith, 1920 Watson, 1928 Mackenzie

Sehouyah - 1914 ?, 1920 Fowler

Berkeley - 1920 Watson/Hunter

Valley Club of Montecito - 1929 Mackenzie/Hunter

Lakeside - 1924 Behr

Montebello Park - 1928 Behr

La Cumbre - 1917 Bendelow, 1925 Thomas/Bell

Royal Palms - 1925 Bell

Lake Elsinore - 1925 Dunn

Lake Norconian - 1928 Dunn

Griffith Park - 1923 Thomas

Fox Hills - 1927 Thomas/Bell

Sunset Fields (No.1 + No.2) - 1927 Bell

El Caballero - 1928 Bell

Annandale - 1906 Watson/O'Neil, 1919 Watson, 1923 Bell/Croke

Pasadena - 1920 O'Neil/Croke

Brookside - 1930 Bell

Midwick - 1911 Macbeth, 1929 Bell

Rancho - 1921 Fowler

Wilshire - 1919 Macbeth

Hillcrest - 1922 Watson

Hacienda - 1920 Watson, ? Behr

Flintridge - 1921 Watson

San Diego - 1922 Watson

Rancho Santa Fe - 1929 Behr

Agua Caliente - 1929 Bell

[Thomas MacWood]

Looking at this California list are there any general observations?

I'll tell you what standouts to me, the prominence of Billy Bell.

[David Stamm]

I'll tell you what standouts to me, the prominence of Billy Bell.

A viewpoint long held by myself and others in So Cal, Tom. When one looks at the courses that BB worked on at one time or another, it really is quite impressive. I won't say Bell is unsung, but I'm not sure he is appreciated the way he should be.

An observation of mine. How many courses are NLE or radically different now.

[David Stamm]

Tom, I would add McComas' name to Pebble Beach for design credit. He is afterall responsible for the 14th as we know it today. And I believe AM performed his work in '26, if I'm not mistaken.

[rjsimper]

Part of the unsungness of Billy Bell comes from his close association with Thomas - in fact, one course I cited, Palos Verdes Golf Club, a sporty course that time and technology have been tough on (yardage 6200) gives, or at least gave design credit on the scorecard to Thomas when Bell did most or even all of the work.

Also I'd have to think, though this is speculative on my part, that Bell's son dilutes the Bell name a bit and people see many great courses with the name William Bell on them, but also many average courses.

[David Ober]

How about Victoria Club in Riverside? Wasn't it one of the earliest in all of California, and wasn't Max Behr involved at some point?

[David Stamm]

How about Victoria Club in Riverside? Wasn't it one of the earliest in all of California, and wasn't Max Behr involved at some point?

Victoria has been mentioned earlier, but Tom has chosen not to include it in his list for some reason. Thomas thought enough of the 15th (Alps) there to include it in his book.

[Thomas MacWood]

I considered Victoria but I had a hard time figuring out how could it was. I can find very little written about the course. I also had a hard time figuring out who was involved and how the course evolved over the years.

[Robert_Ball]

I considered Victoria but I had a hard time figuring out how could it was. I can find very little written about the course. I also had a hard time figuring out who was involved and how the course evolved over the years.

Victoria Club
1903: Original 9 holes laid out by member Fred Heath
1920: 18 hole course designed by Walter Fovarque opened.  Two of the original green sites were retained.
1924: Major redesign by Max Behr
1964-68: William F Bell rebuilt 4 greens, added lake between 1 and 9 fairway, rebuilt first tee.

Victoria is one of the best remaining examples of Behr's work.

BTW, Hacienda was designed by Watson and William P Bell.  Behr was not involved.

[Thomas MacWood]

Cypress Point - 1928 MacKenzie/Hunter

Pebble Beach - 1919 Neville/Grant, 1920 Fowler, 1927 Mackenzie, 1929 Egan/Hunter/et al

Pasatiempo - 1929 Mackenzie

Riviera - 1926 Thomas/Bell

Los Angeles (North) - 1921 Fowler, 1927 Thomas/Bell

Bel-Air - 1927 Thomas/Bell/Neville

Ojai Valley - 1924 Thomas/Bell

San Francisco - 1918 Neville?, 1920 Tillinghast, 1930 Bell

Olympic (Lake) - 1924 Watson, 1927 Whiting

Olympic (Ocean) - 1924 Watson, 1927 Whiting

Meadow Club - 1927 Mackenzie/Hunter

Stanford - 1930 Bell/Thomas

Monterey Peninsula - 1925 Raynor, 1926 Hunter/MacKenzie/Egan

Lake Merced -  1922 Lock, 1929 Mackenzie

Califronia GC of SF - 1918 Lock, 1920 Macan, 1927 Mackenzie/Hunter

Harding Park - 1925 Watson

Sharp Park - 1929 Mackenzie

Orinda - 1925 Watson

Sonoma - 1927 Whiting/Watson?

Castlewood - 1927 Bell

Claremont - 1903 Smith, 1920 Watson, 1928 Mackenzie

Sehouyah - 1914 ?, 1920 Fowler

Berkeley - 1920 Watson/Hunter

Valley Club of Montecito - 1929 Mackenzie/Hunter

Lakeside - 1924 Behr

Montebello Park - 1928 Behr

La Cumbre - 1917 Bendelow, 1925 Thomas/Bell

Royal Palms - 1925 Bell

Lake Elsinore - 1925 Dunn

Lake Norconian - 1928 Dunn

Griffith Park - 1923 Thomas

Fox Hills - 1927 Thomas/Bell

Sunset Fields (No.1 + No.2) - 1927 Bell

El Caballero - 1928 Bell

Annandale - 1906 Watson/O'Neil, 1919 Watson, 1923 Bell/Croke

Pasadena - 1920 O'Neil/Croke

Brookside - 1930 Bell

Midwick - 1911 Macbeth, 1929 Bell

Rancho - 1921 Fowler

Wilshire - 1919 Macbeth

Hillcrest - 1922 Watson

Hacienda - 1920 Watson

Victoria - 1903 Heath, 1918 Fovargue, 1924 Behr

Flintridge - 1921 Watson

San Diego - 1922 Watson

Rancho Santa Fe - 1929 Behr

Agua Caliente - 1929 Bell

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood:

Perhaps I've missed it but have you bothered to explain yet why you've started these threads about the best courses in various regions before a certain year?

[Thomas MacWood]

I want to learn more about California golf architecure history.

[Thomas MacWood]

When you see a list like this IMO it gives you a better perspective of who was doing what, especially in golf course rich California. It could be argued California in 1930 was the zenith of American golf architecture. And when you see how important little discussed Billy Bell or William Watson were to the California golf scene it gives you an appreciation for their importance in the history of golf architect.

Cypress Point - 1928 MacKenzie/Hunter

Pebble Beach - 1919 Neville/Grant, 1920 Fowler, 1927 Mackenzie, 1929 Egan/Hunter/et al

Pasatiempo - 1929 Mackenzie

Riviera - 1926 Thomas/Bell

Los Angeles (North) - 1921 Fowler, 1927 Thomas/Bell

Bel-Air - 1927 Thomas/Bell/Neville

Ojai Valley - 1924 Thomas/Bell

San Francisco - 1918 Neville?, 1920 Tillinghast, 1930 Bell

Olympic (Lake) - 1924 Watson, 1927 Whiting

Olympic (Ocean) - 1924 Watson, 1927 Whiting

Meadow Club - 1927 Mackenzie/Hunter

Stanford - 1930 Bell/Thomas

Monterey Peninsula - 1925 Raynor, 1926 Hunter/MacKenzie/Egan

Lake Merced -  1922 Lock, 1929 Mackenzie

Califronia GC of SF - 1918 Lock, 1920 Macan, 1927 Mackenzie/Hunter

Harding Park - 1925 Watson

Sharp Park - 1929 Mackenzie

Orinda - 1925 Watson

Sonoma - 1927 Whiting/Watson?

Castlewood - 1927 Bell

Claremont - 1903 Smith, 1920 Watson, 1928 Mackenzie

Sehouyah - 1914 ?, 1920 Fowler

Berkeley - 1920 Watson/Hunter

Valley Club of Montecito - 1929 Mackenzie/Hunter

Lakeside - 1924 Behr

Montebello Park - 1928 Behr

La Cumbre - 1917 Bendelow/Bryce, 1925 Thomas/Bell

Royal Palms - 1925 Bell

Lake Elsinore - 1925 Dunn

Lake Norconian - 1928 Dunn

Griffith Park - 1923 Thomas

Fox Hills - 1927 Thomas/Bell

Sunset Fields (No.1 + No.2) - 1927 Bell

El Caballero - 1928 Bell

Annandale - 1906 Watson/O'Neil, 1919 Watson, 1923 Bell/Croke

Pasadena - 1920 O'Neil/Croke

Brookside - 1928 Bell

Midwick - 1911 Macbeth, 1929 Bell

Rancho - 1921 Fowler

Wilshire - 1919 Macbeth

Hillcrest - 1922 Watson

Hacienda - 1920 Watson

Victoria - 1903 Heath, 1918 Fovargue, 1924 Behr

Flintridge - 1921 Watson

San Diego - 1922 Watson

Rancho Santa Fe - 1929 Behr

Agua Caliente - 1929 Bell

[SPDB]

I'm still not sure why Del Paso is being excluded. In a January 1927 survey of golf in California entitled "Interesting California Courses," Joseph Black said that the new Del Paso course should be included in the limited list of courses he referred to in his article.

At the very top, he names SFG&CC, Lake Merced, Ojai, El Caballero and Lakeside as "offering golfing opportunities supreme."

Other courses mentioned include Del Paso, La Cumbre, Rancho, Pebble Beach, Pasadena, Mount Diablo, Sequoyah, and the "five good courses at Del Monte (including Pebble Beach).

[Mike Benham]

I do think that Peninsula (Beresford Country Club - 1922) as the only Ross design in California does belong on the list.

[Thomas MacWood]

My impression is Beresford was not one of Ross's better courses and not one of the better courses in NorCal. What I've seen of old Del Paso was uninspiring. 

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()