[Jason Topp]

Royal Dornoch received a Doak 10.  I’ve only heard praise of the course.

I played there a couple of times and really enjoyed the experience.  It is a lovely setting, the course is in a fantastic location, it is in wonderful condition and it has some fantastic holes. 

Nonetheless, I found myself wondering if the course has been overly praised.

Rather than just post my mediocre photos of the course, I thought I would make illustrated arguments as to why the course might not be worthy of a 10.

[Jason Topp]

Issue Number 1:  The course has many repetitive holes:

Example 1:  Holes 3, 4 and 5 are very similar, particularly off the tee.  I am not sure whether the 2nd picture is the 4th or the 5th.

[Jason Topp]

Example 2:  The par fives are similar.

The 9th from the tee:



I think this view includes the 12th  on the left (although it could be 14)(6 is to the right and 5 is in the middle):

[Jason Topp]

Example 3 – the 8th and 17th are very similar holes.  Both are around 400 yards and present the option of a short left tee shot with a longer downhill 2nd vs. carrying an angled ridge for a shorter approach.

The approach to the 8th from the upper left side:



8th looking backwards:



Approach to 17 from Left:



Approach to 17 from Right


   
I have other examples I will post as I am able.

[Brent Hutto]

I don't agree about the ninth and twelfth being overly similar. While they are of similar length, they play differently for me. The best angle off the tee on twelve is to the right and you definitely want to be as far right as possible with a layup. On the ninth hole it is safer to play right on the tee shot but the proper spot for a layup is IMO hard against the left rough line. And the green complexes play quite differently. I think that hump at the front-left of the green on twelve makes the hole whereas nine has more of a typically Dornoch elevated green that is (IIRC) flatter than the twelfth green.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Good  luck Jason, keep em coming. I'm sure Rhic will support you all the way on this - he loves a contrary POV


Hope you'll get round to the routing, what a drag it is walking back to play 13 when 14 is just there.  And that hill to get to 7, man.



(God I wonder how long before I can get back to that bloddy mess?)

[Brent Hutto]

I'll agree about eight and seventeen seeming similar but they are such breathtaking holes that I don't begrudge seeing two of them in a round. And both have very interesting greens, one smallish and in a bowl that "empties" off the back edge the other huge and semi-blind with a gigantic backstop built into the green.

I think they're two of the more fun-to-play holes I've seen on links courses and it's a bit small-minded to complain that their tee shots are similar. Kind of like if you saw the Mona Lisa and then noticed an equally fine and enigmatic portrait of her sister hanging in the next room.

P.S. And BTW I am not at all sure after spending a week there that Royal Dornoch is the finest course I've played. That says more about my game at the moment than about the course perhaps but I'm not a raving fanboy. Then again, keep posting photos and I may end up one by the close of this thread...

[Bill_McBride]

Jason, I have to respectfully disagree, and it's pretty fresh in my mind from 3 rounds there two weeks ago.

There are 18 really good to great holes out there.  Yes, #3 and #4 are similar, both with left to right sloping fairways and deep gorse on the left that ask you to play as close to the danger left as possible in order to avoid the deep fairway bunkers right.

However, the greens complexes are different enough that the holes play differently.   But you're right, these holes are very similar.

By contrast, #5 is a very different hole, not much slope in the fairway and a full 100 yards shorter.  This is a terrific short par 4 with an elevated green where #3 and #4 are on grade.

#7, #8, #11, #14, #15, #16, #17 and #18, the remaining par 4s, are each unique to itself and each is a terrific hole.  The contrast between #14 Foxy and the very short hole with the fairway mound and elevated green #15 is very effective.

I loved the fairways (#8 and #17) where a well struck tee ball disappeared over the crest of the hill; you almost wanted to start running to see where the ball ended up.

In some ways the strength of the course is in the par 3s.  #2, #6, #10 and #13 are each a handful, with the issue on the first three being a crowned, elevated green with steep falloffs and the prospect of ping pong back and forth always at hand.  #6 does give you the option to bounce the tee ball off the left slope, where at #2 and #10 you are either safely on or trying to avoid a double.

I'll agree the par 5s are not the strength.  Both run in the same direction, back toward the clubhouse with the beach in play on the left.  #12 has a bunker in the perfect position short and right to wreak havoc on a carelessly played lay up, or one forced down that side because of the daunting greenside bunker front left.  #9 by contrast didn't have much going on except hitting the second shot in the fairway instead of on the beach.

I thought Royal Dornoch one of the most thought provoking and challenging courses I've ever played.  I'd love to get back there some day.......

[Jason Topp]

I don't agree about the ninth and twelfth being overly similar. While they are of similar length, they play differently for me. The best angle off the tee on twelve is to the right and you definitely want to be as far right as possible with a layup. On the ninth hole it is safer to play right on the tee shot but the proper spot for a layup is IMO hard against the left rough line. And the green complexes play quite differently. I think that hump at the front-left of the green on twelve makes the hole whereas nine has more of a typically Dornoch elevated green that is (IIRC) flatter than the twelfth green.

Brett:

Is this the 12th green?

[Bill_McBride]

Good  luck Jason, keep em coming. I'm sure Rhic will support you all the way on this - he loves a contrary POV


Hope you'll get round to the routing, what a drag it is walking back to play 13 when 14 is just there.  And that hill to get to 7, man.



(God I wonder how long before I can get back to that bloddy mess?)

It was that bad, was it? 

[Jason Topp]

Good  luck Jason, keep em coming. I'm sure Rhic will support you all the way on this - he loves a contrary POV


Hope you'll get round to the routing, what a drag it is walking back to play 13 when 14 is just there.  And that hill to get to 7, man.



(God I wonder how long before I can get back to that bloddy mess?)

POV - I need to learn that term.  I can guess however.    (For Dan K)

[Brent Hutto]

Jason,

I believe that's the eleventh green, a long Par 4. I could probably get behind the idea that eleven plays as a very similar but slightly shorter version of nine. For my game neither is reachable, it's driver/fairway wood/short iron on the ninth versus driver/fairway wood/sand wedge on eleven in the typical winds we played in. The twelfth is the Par 5, its tee box is just adjacent to the green you've pictured.

[Jason Topp]

Sorry Bill - I do not remember how to Mucci.  My thoughts are inserted:

Jason, I have to respectfully disagree, and it's pretty fresh in my mind from 3 rounds there two weeks ago.

There are 18 really good to great holes out there.  Yes, #3 and #4 are similar, both with left to right sloping fairways and deep gorse on the left that ask you to play as close to the danger left as possible in order to avoid the deep fairway bunkers right.

However, the greens complexes are different enough that the holes play differently.   But you're right, these holes are very similar.

By contrast, #5 is a very different hole, not much slope in the fairway and a full 100 yards shorter.  This is a terrific short par 4 with an elevated green where #3 and #4 are on grade.


I think the tee shots are still similar however.  Keep it left and you have a better angle, right is safe.



#7, #8, #11, #14, #15, #16, #17 and #18, the remaining par 4s, are each unique to itself and each is a terrific hole.  The contrast between #14 Foxy and the very short hole with the fairway mound and elevated green #15 is very effective.


7 is a long flat hole, just like 18.
8 and 17 are very interesting, but similar holes.
11 is a good difficult hole
I agree with your view on 14 and 15.
16 is two slugs up a hill into the wind.  I could see some advantage to hugging the left  but not much because the fairway is so wide.



In some ways the strength of the course is in the par 3s.  #2, #6, #10 and #13 are each a handful, with the issue on the first three being a crowned, elevated green with steep falloffs and the prospect of ping pong back and forth always at hand.  #6 does give you the option to bounce the tee ball off the left slope, where at #2 and #10 you are either safely on or trying to avoid a double.



I agree that the par threes are terrific in and of themeselves, but 2, 6 and 10 are very similar with the primary variation being the hill to the left that makes 6 one of my favorite 3's anywhere.  13 is a similar length to the other holes but I agree it is a different type of hole.



I'll agree the par 5s are not the strength.  Both run in the same direction, back toward the clubhouse with the beach in play on the left.  #12 has a bunker in the perfect position short and right to wreak havoc on a carelessly played lay up, or one forced down that side because of the daunting greenside bunker front left.  #9 by contrast didn't have much going on except hitting the second shot in the fairway instead of on the beach.


I thought Royal Dornoch one of the most thought provoking and challenging courses I've ever played.  I'd love to get back there some day....... ;

D


I want to return as well.  I am interested, however, in whether I was intoxicated by reputation and setting and blinded to flaws in the actual course.

[Jason Topp]

Here is 13.  I just like the picture:

[Tony_Muldoon]

And when there’s no rain it all goes brown.


And if you have a snap hook its gorse gorse, gorse all the way out...


...And then those water features we on GCA hate all the way back.
 

(After 3 rounds I think you may have a point re 3 and 4 and 8 an 17. My take on it was 3 is a superb par 4 and the next hole takes the same template and does it even better.  Each day I hit my tee shot down the right and then progressively hit my approach further and further left on the green.  Not once did I stay on it.  Same goes for comparing 8 and 17. I noticed they were from a similar template but playing them it made no difference what the Scoresaver showed.)


Jason don’t you think you’re actually making the case for ‘natural golf courses’.  No one would design the things you describe but in this instance the result can be criticised for some of its parts, but as a whole?

So can you put a finger on why your feelings are little ambiguous on this course?

(edited post as a few of those pictures were obviously taken on a very clear day indeed)

[Philip Gawith]

Hello Jason, sorry to miss you in Scotland. Enjoyed seeing your young lads teeing it up on the glorious short at Brora!

I think your attempt to question Dornoch's greatness is brave, but wrong! Certainly there are similarities between some of the holes you cite, but the differences are much larger i would say.

Yes 3 and 4 are similar - but 3 has bunkers down the right for the drive and 4 does not. 4 is a much harder hole on account of the elevated, enormous green - and generally you face a much longer second on 4. 5, as has been pointed out, is a very different hole - and the challenge here is to be brave enough to put the tee ball sufficiently far left to play up the length of the green which is at an awkward angle to the fairway. You always have a short iron to the green, but 90+% of golfers are playing their approach from too far to the right and will not hold the green, even with a short iron.

The 9th and the 12th are not really similar holes - the 9th is straight and next to the beach, the 12th is a pronounced right to left dogleg. I think they are challenging holes - both are reachable after a good drive, but both require very precise second shots to hit the green - especially the 12th, where the mound on the left of the green is a very effective hazard (and yes, the green you show is the 12th - viewed from the left - towards the 13th tee).

As for 8 and 17, yes the drive is quite similar - but a lot depends on the wind. If it is blowing off the sea then they are relatively similar, but if it is relatively similar then you can't hit a driver off 17 - you will run out of space. The biggest difference, of course, is that the 17th green is elevated and blind whereas the 8th is quite a different proposition.

As for the claim that 2,6 and 10 are essentially similar.....i can see that there is a big fall off to the right on the 6th and 2nd - beyond that i fail to see the comparison, which inter alia totally fails to take account of the wind. when i last played the 2nd required a 4 iron straight into the teeth of a wind, the 7th required a well struck 6 iron with the wind strong from the right, the 10th required a flick with the sand iron and was nearly impossible to hold the green.

 If i think of some of the courses i have played which are regarded as being in the absolute top echelon - Muirfield, Pebble Beach, Royal Melbourne, Royal Portrush etc - i would think that Dornoch surely stands comparison with any of these.

Maybe you need to go back for another viewing!

[Jason Topp]

Jason don’t you think you’re actually making the case for ‘natural golf courses’.  No one would design the things you describe but in this instance the result can be criticised for some of its parts, but as a whole?

So can you put a finger on why your feelings are little ambiguous on this course?

(edited post as a few of those pictures were obviously taken on a very clear day indeed)

Tony:

Actually - all of the pictures were taken on the first of two days that I played it.  It shows how the weather changes quickly.  I had a similar pattern the second day - sun going out rain on the 16th.

My feelings are not at all ambiguous.  I loved the place.  

I think, however, that quality of architecture is about more than a gut reaction to a course.  I noticed a lot of potential flaws in my visit.  If Royal Dornoch is truly among the 10 or so best courses in the world, it either has alot going for it that makes up for those flaws or they are not really flaws at all.      

[Jason Topp]

Tony:

The course was a little bit wetter than ideal when I played it, but that is obviously just a function of the weather given your pictures.

When the course is that dry, does the tee shot going over the hill on 17 stay out of the gorse?  I was surprised how close I came on both days during my rounds.

[Rich Goodale]

I don't agree about the ninth and twelfth being overly similar. While they are of similar length, they play differently for me. The best angle off the tee on twelve is to the right and you definitely want to be as far right as possible with a layup. On the ninth hole it is safer to play right on the tee shot but the proper spot for a layup is IMO hard against the left rough line. And the green complexes play quite differently. I think that hump at the front-left of the green on twelve makes the hole whereas nine has more of a typically Dornoch elevated green that is (IIRC) flatter than the twelfth green.

Brett:

Is this the 12th green?

It is the 12th green, Jason.  Brett miscalculated, and as Bill McBride can see, there is no bunker to the left.  He's probably thinking of 11 too.  Dornoch has a way of discombobulating even the finest of minds.....(imagine smiley face here).

[Tony_Muldoon]

Tony:

When the course is that dry, does the tee shot going over the hill on 17 stay out of the gorse?  I was surprised how close I came on both days during my rounds.

Always when it's me hitting it.    On the last day I got clever and took my 4 iron and aimed to bounce it down the hill as close to the rubbish (gorse?) on the left as possible. so in the company of two new 'friends' from GCA I hit it fat, .   On other days I was using a 3 rescue.

[Sean_A]

Jason

I can't agree that Dornoch isn't a great course, though I am not sure you are saying this.  Its sounds like you are asking if it belongs in the very top echelon of courses.  In my experience Dornoch does, but there are plenty I haven't seen.

However, I may follow your instincts.  On my third trip back last year I found that I wasn't overly enamoured with the course.  I like it a lot, but there are aspects which didn't thrill me.  There is something not right about the 16th.  3-5 have a similar feel to them, but that has as much to do with the ridge they follow as anything.  I also don't care for the bunkering in this stretch.  It is totally ott.  The stretch of 7-9 are not in any way special.  I don't believe the par 3s are all that.  The course is essentially an out n back affair.  I detest the walk back to 13.

The course does have some lovely attributes and these start with the greens.  There is not a green on the course that doesn't entertain.  The par 4s are varied to a fantastic degree and imo really are the bones of why Dornoch is great.  There is some great movement without being out of control.  Some of the bunker placement is sublime.  The 11th is exceptionally well bunkered.  The greensite for #12 is out of this world - such a simplicity of design which leaves me wondering why golf isn't more like this.  

No, I have to say that given all the great things about Dornoch (and I didn't even mention Foxy) combined with how good the weak elements of the course (I am coming to believe more and more that a course can only be as good as its weakest holes will allow) are makes Dornoch a certain candidate for all world.  The one funny thing about it all was that I found myself enjoying Brora more.  Where does leave me?  Simple, Dornoch is a great course, but not really one of my top favourites.  And my opinion could change on the next visit...

Ciao

[David_Tepper]

To discuss whether Royal Dornoch is overrated, it might help to rate the course in the first place!

On the list of "the Top 100 Course in the World outside the U.S." (published in the May, 2007 issue of Golf Digest), Planet Golf ranked Royal Dornoch at #3, ahead of every course in the British Open rota except St. Andrews.

In the July, 2006 issue of Golf World (UK), Royal Dornoch was #14 on the list of "The Top 100 Courses in GB&I," behind 6 of the Open rota courses.

The gap between being considered #3 in the world (outside the U.S.) vs. #14 in GB&I is rather wide! 

I think Jason and Sean have raised some valid points about RD. I have had similar thoughts myself over the past couple of years.

My feeling is the Planet Golf ranking is probably a little too high and the Golf World ranking is definitely too low.

[Kevin Pallier]

Jason

As David says - depends how one rates it in the first place ?

I put it in my Top5 GB&I courses and think it's better than Royal Portrush (which Golf Magazine has ahead of it - 2007).

It's green complexes are superb - the highlight for mine - and recovery shots are very difficult. It's P3's have wonderfull variety as are the P4's with some very strategic approaches. It also has a few half-par holes and personally I didn't think the P5's played the same. The changes in topography toward the end provided a stern finish to the round and I enjoyed the subtle challenges within the layout.

Where do you rate it ?

[Brent Hutto]

No, I have to say that given all the great things about Dornoch (and I didn't even mention Foxy) combined with how good the weak elements of the course (I am coming to believe more and more that a course can only be as good as its weakest holes will allow) are makes Dornoch a certain candidate for all world.  The one funny thing about it all was that I found myself enjoying Brora more.  Where does leave me?  Simple, Dornoch is a great course, but not really one of my top favourites.  And my opinion could change on the next visit...

Although I don't agree with Sean on every specific strength and weakness his conclusion is just about identical to mine, pending a future visit with an intact golf game with which to experience the course more completely.

And I wholeheartedly agree with Sean's accounting of his Brora/Dornoch paradox. I would not state that Brora is in any way a "better" or "greater" course than Royal Dornoch. But round for round I had far more fun at Brora and look back to my next visit there at least as much as the prospect of a return to Dornoch. Of course to juxtapose those two courses and try to decide on which you'd rather have your next game is to face an enviable choice by any reckoning.

[Bill_McBride]

I don't agree about the ninth and twelfth being overly similar. While they are of similar length, they play differently for me. The best angle off the tee on twelve is to the right and you definitely want to be as far right as possible with a layup. On the ninth hole it is safer to play right on the tee shot but the proper spot for a layup is IMO hard against the left rough line. And the green complexes play quite differently. I think that hump at the front-left of the green on twelve makes the hole whereas nine has more of a typically Dornoch elevated green that is (IIRC) flatter than the twelfth green.

I'm searching frantically for my copy of the Dornoch guide written by the noted scribe RFG but can't find it right this minute.  I was pretty certain there is some broken ground or hairy, gnarly knob front left of the 12th green that prompted a shot right that was then endangered by the fairway bunker down there......but as usual I could be wrong. 

Brett:

Is this the 12th green?

It is the 12th green, Jason.  Brett miscalculated, and as Bill McBride can see, there is no bunker to the left.  He's probably thinking of 11 too.  Dornoch has a way of discombobulating even the finest of minds.....(imagine smiley face here).

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