[Bryan Izatt]

For future reference, just some photographic evidence from the 17th hole at Prestwick. One wonders how courses and critics refer to Alps-like holes or holes with Alps-like features that bear little resemblance to this original.  Are there really any Alps holes in North America?  Elsewhere in the world?

The tee shot with the fronting dune.  The golfer and his bag provide some perspective of size.




The fronting bunker and green from the top of the ridge.





From in the bunker.  A man-sized bunker.

[Sean_A]

Bryan

Most folks in the States water these "name" hole definitions down to fit existing holes/ideas of what the hole might look like.  Even in the old days many folks got it wrong - by miles.  I have been lamenting what folks call Redans for sometime and I was astonished when I saw Merion's 3rd.  A good hole for sure, but certainly not a Redan.  The examples on this board of these sorts of errors are endless. 

Ciao

[Bryan Izatt]

Sean,

Yeah, my feeling too.  Although the redans over here are closer than the Alps.

[TEPaul]

Guys:

The endless error is that so many think holes with names like that are supposed to be almost exact copies of the original. That was never the intention of even C.B. Macdonald. Read his definition of a redan, for instance. The idea was holes with those types of names were basic conceptual copies off a few architectural or strategic principles.

[Sean_A]

Guys:

The endless error is that so many think holes with names like that are supposed to be almost exact copies of the original. That was never the intention of even C.B. Macdonald. Read his definition of a redan, for instance. The idea was holes with those types of names were basic conceptual copies off a few architectural or strategic principles.

Tom P

Even in this many folks get the basic conceptual ideas wrong.  For instance, a downhill Redan?  How many of these have been paraded about in the past as Redans? The list goes on.  I think it is much more the case of folks really trying to put square pegs into round holes - perhaps for convenience sake and things just got out of hand.  There are usually something like 2-4 critical elements of these "name" holes and if they are not included on later holes of the same namesake all it does is confuse matters - which is pretty common. 

Ciao

[TEPaul]

Sean:

I agree with you that the "redan" concept probably does have about 2-4 necessary characteristics.

Macdonald's definition of a somewhat narrow "tableland" turned slightly to the direction of play works for me. Personally, I think a most necessary characteristic of a redan green is that the ball should filter down and way from the green front opening and the fact is that can also happen well even if the green is somewhat below the tee. Perhaps the best reverse redan green ever was at The Links Club in Long Island. The strategic playability of that hole was really something beautiful to see.

The other redan characteristic to me is that the hole pretty much requires a traditional redan shot and that shots directly at the pin just really don't work out because the green is to shallow and too much running down and way to receive a shot like that.

To me the best redans I've ever seen are all about how they treat the basic traditional redan shot and how they treat shots that aren't the traditional redan shot. To me essentially the "redan" concept is built around a particular "shot" and failing that the results are basically not good or effective.

[Rich Goodale]

Tom

We've been over this for many, many years, but Redan means "fortress," and as far as I'm concerned if it doesn't look like a fortress with a semi-blind shot it ain't a Redan!  Just because CB says something is a Redan doesn't make it so.

Rich

[TEPaul]

"Tom
We've been over this for many, many years, but Redan means "fortress," and as far as I'm concerned if it doesn't look like a fortress with a semi-blind shot it ain't a Redan!  Just because CB says something is a Redan doesn't make it so."

Rich:

I know what the military etymology of "redan" is and I also realize in military strategic thinking and practically forever, military strategists looked for high ground as it's generally more defensible.

But I most certainly accept Macdonald's conceptual utilization that revolves around golf shots and not military ordinance. The way a redan treats various shots is what the concept is all about to me and it is fairly set that way. Macdonald knew how to mix up the look of a redan and maintain the essential shot concept of the redan priniciple for golf.

If you guys over there are as possessive about and protective of the name as you've always seemed to me to be you should've copyrighted the Goddamn thing and its name before Macdonald borrowed the concept and the name but you didn't do that, did you? 

Furthermore, I can't imagine anything worse in golf architecture than to have some hole that needs to always look almost exactly like its prototype which too many seem to think it should. Thank God Macdonald and some of the others who used the redan concept well didn't fall for that kind of standardization.

As far as being semi-blind, that is a really unique characteristic of North Berwick's redan which I've never seen anywhere else. I guess for that reason alone NB's should be given kudos and should be considered to be unique. The semi-blind characteristic of the best redan's I've seen in America that include NGLA's and Piping Rock's is that once the ball hits the kicker and carooms off it, the ball essentially disappears from view as it filiters down and away on the green surface.

[Paul_Turner]

Tom

I agree, it's pretty easy to spot a "redan" etc and their adaptations!

[TEPaul]

Rich:

For years it has always occured to me that the Scots tend to lay claim to inventing almost everything. I realize they think they also invented the radio and the hula hoop and the Twist but the fact is American teeny-boppers and Chubby Checkers made them famous!  


This kind of thing basically goes right back to some of the sentiments Melvyn Morrow recently expressed that the game of golf has been massively corrupted from its Scottish roots and Scottish expression by placing courses on land that is vastly different from Scotland's traditional links sites and is therefore not well suited to that kind of golf.

I hear Melvyn, and I do commisserate with him and I'd feel the same, I suppose, if I were Scottish, as he is. As he says, it's what he grew up with and consequently that's what he likes. On the other hand, I think Melvyn and other Scots who seem to feel this way, with this type of attitude towards the purity of Scottish style golf, should take comfort in the fact that Scotland and the Scots gave the world a game that is massively adaptable to other places and other peoples and when one looks at it that way what could make Scotland and the Scots prouder?

[Paul_Turner]

Tom

They write a lot of books about it too!

[Mark Bourgeois]

In that case, Rich, can you let us know whether today's Redan is even a Redan?  Didn't you write it was a par 4 originally?

Mark

[Bill_McBride]

You want to see an Alps hole in America?   How about this one?

The green is over the crest of the hill in the direction where the player is facing for his long approach shot:



Here's a glimpse of the fronting bunker:



Note the bell that is used to notify the following group that the green is clear.  This might the best par 4 on a
course loaded with great par 4s.  Then you get to play a great Redan next!

[Rich Goodale]

In that case, Rich, can you let us know whether today's Redan is even a Redan?  Didn't you write it was a par 4 originally?

Mark

Damned fine question, Mark.  As the Redan part of the hole referred to the green, even when the hole was longer, I'd say yes.

Tom

Have you read:

"How the Scots Invented the Modern World"?  Some Murcan wrote it so it must be true.

Rich

[Mark Bourgeois]

Okay Rich then how about this:

Should N Berwick's Redan be considered a Redan given that it looks nothing like the real redan?

[Rich Goodale]

Not really, Mark.  NB gets to call it "Redan" because they named their hole first.  Everybody else is a plagiaristic impostor.  Thank god Macdonald never got to Dornoch, or there would be bastardized "Foxy"s all over the place.....

[TEPaul]

"Not really, Mark.  NB gets to call it "Redan" because they named their hole first.  Everybody else is a plagiaristic impostor.  Thank god Macdonald never got to Dornoch, or there would be bastardized "Foxy"s all over the place....."


In that case, Richard, maybe it would be appropriate if the rest of the world outside Scotland just called this game we all play something other than golf!   

[Jim Nugent]

In that case, Rich, can you let us know whether today's Redan is even a Redan?  Didn't you write it was a par 4 originally?

Mark

And my related question: was the original Biarritz in France actually a Biarritz? 

On the NGLA Alps hole, how far below the crest of the hill is the green?  About at the same level as the cart in Ran's picture? 

[Bill_McBride]

In that case, Rich, can you let us know whether today's Redan is even a Redan?  Didn't you write it was a par 4 originally?

Mark

And my related question: was the original Biarritz in France actually a Biarritz? 

On the NGLA Alps hole, how far below the crest of the hole is the green?  About at the same level as the cart in Ran's picture? 

Jim, I don't recall it being too far below the crest.  It sits about 40 yards beyond the crest so would be hidden even at the same level as the green.  It might even sit pretty even with the crest with the bunker in between.

[Doug Wright]

The following is from George Bahto's excellent December 1999 Feature Interview (a must read for any golf course architecture aficionado):

"'Alps' was a term describing a blind shot throughout the British Isles - the original was the 17th at Prestwick. The 3rd at National is an awe-inspiring version. A 'mountain' must be carried on the approach shot to a green fronted by a deep cross bunker. National's Alps is considered an anachronism to some, but students of the classics consider it a wonderful tribute to days gone by. It was the end of the era of blind shots, but C.B could not resist when he found a natural Alps site when building his Ideal Golf Course. Seth Raynor built an Alps on most courses, but they were generally identified as having 'Alps bunkering' - meaning some cross-bunkering in front of the green. Instead of a blind approach over a 'mountain,' Raynor customarily positioned his Alps renditions just over the crest of a rising fairway - then cross-bunkering the green complex. Sadly, many clubs covered in the cross bunker because they did not understand the origin and concept. Alps greens usually had a spine of sorts running through the green to compound putting problems."

Back to Bryan's original question--where are some others? I'm not sure I've played any except Prestwick's.

[Bill_McBride]

The following is from George Bahto's excellent December 1999 Feature Interview (a must read for any golf course architecture aficionado):

"'Alps' was a term describing a blind shot throughout the British Isles - the original was the 17th at Prestwick. The 3rd at National is an awe-inspiring version. A 'mountain' must be carried on the approach shot to a green fronted by a deep cross bunker. National's Alps is considered an anachronism to some, but students of the classics consider it a wonderful tribute to days gone by. It was the end of the era of blind shots, but C.B could not resist when he found a natural Alps site when building his Ideal Golf Course. Seth Raynor built an Alps on most courses, but they were generally identified as having 'Alps bunkering' - meaning some cross-bunkering in front of the green. Instead of a blind approach over a 'mountain,' Raynor customarily positioned his Alps renditions just over the crest of a rising fairway - then cross-bunkering the green complex. Sadly, many clubs covered in the cross bunker because they did not understand the origin and concept. Alps greens usually had a spine of sorts running through the green to compound putting problems."

Back to Bryan's original question--where are some others? I'm not sure I've played any except Prestwick's.

NGLA above, Yale has a fairly tepid version.  Mountain Lake's is even less "Alpsy" than Yale's.  NGLA's is the bellweather that I know of.

[Tom_Doak]

Rich G:

I've actually played a course which tried to replicate "Foxy" -- the Donald Ross Memorial Course at Boyne Highlands in Michigan.

It's a terrible idea.  The turf isn't bouncy like a links so the hole plays nothing like the real thing.

[TEPaul]

On the NGLA Alps hole, how far below the crest of the hill is the green?  About at the same level as the cart in Ran's picture?"

Jim:

The green surface is actually above the level of that cart in the photo above and probably considerably. That fellow around the cart is approaching that green on his third shot. The hole is a par 4. Down to the right like that is one of the layup ways of approaching that green. The other way is to layup somewhere on top of the hill short of the blind fronting bunker (since I've never actually tried to layup on top of the Alps hill I honestly can't even remember how much fairway there is up there). The so-called "Alps" on that hole is probably something like 20-30 times the size of the "alps" at Prestwick. 

For those who appreciate the highly unusual and different in golf architecture, basically there's very little anywhere quite like NGLA's 3rd hole. It is very different but for some it really is one of the great blind golf holes in the world.

Another interesting feature on NGLA's "Alps" hole is the pole on top of the berm lending some direction to players who can never see the green or the flagstick. Macdonald/Raynor were obviously fond of those directional polls to those kinds of totally blind greens. Piping Rock has always had two of them---eg one on the Piping "Alps" hole (#12) and one on #15 (it may not be there anymore but it was at one time). The pole on NGLA's "Alps" hole actually has three positions on the berm, I believe, depending on where the day's pin it!  The green is really big side to side with a ton of contour in it. Get on the top right half if the pin is on the left you probably won't two putt.

[Peter Pallotta]

Thanks for the thread, Bryan, and you gents for the fine posts. Very interesting for me. The "Concept behind the concept" idea sounds a lot like the "fundamental principles of good golf course architecture". And I've been wondering for a while how far away an architect could move from the traditional concepts of golf holes/architecture while still retaining the Concept...and still creating and retaining what could be called a Golf Course (and would be called that, except maybe in Scotland... )

Peter   

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()