Changes to The Kingsley Club #17

[George Freeman]

Dan - what will be the mowing pattern behind the old centerline bunkers?  Will you keep it as long grass like it is now, or shave it down to fairway to enlarge the landing zone and give a player the option of trying to carry the right/middle of the bunkers?

Thanks!

[Chris_Hufnagel]

Looking back toward the hill on 17 this weekend. (Jackson Chen's photo).  You can see the grow-in on the right side (left from the tee)

George, in the photo posted by Jud, you can see the new mowing pattern - it looks like they are running the cut line fairly straight from the edge of the old centerline bunkers up to the bunker about 75 yards short of the green - perhaps it gets a little wider toward the green, but where it may widen isn't reachable with the tee ball. It also looks like they are making some changes to the cut line to the right of the fairway down the slop and into the bowl as well.

I think this hole - for me least - will be crossed off the "birdie possibility" list this year and I will be working for pars...

[Dan_Lucas]

George

That line coming down the hill will remain the same, but now will be the left native line. From the new back tee there won't be many carrying the hill without a southern gale anyway. From the blue tees there will be some.

We also favor width and options, but in this case our feeling was that there were more players hitting the left side by accident, missing their intended line by 50 yards, than there were CHOOSING the left option and executing their shot. So the option was overbalanced by the lack of penalty for a horribly executed shot.

Chris

There will be less players reaching the green in two, but it is still a par 5 and there will be many birdies there.

[George Freeman]

...but in this case our feeling was that there were more players hitting the left side by accident, missing their intended line by 50 yards, than there were CHOOSING the left option and executing their shot.  So the option was overbalanced by the lack of penalty for a horribly executed shot.

Jason - now we're all paying for your 50 yard hooks...

 

[Chris_Hufnagel]

Thanks Dan...you must have have seen me play that hole to come to the "horribly executed shot" conclusion...

Agreed there will be birdies, but for me it will be a lot harder because it is going to really now depend on a very well-executed wedge shot short of the green to - what in my opinion - is a pretty tough green to putt...

I think I am really going to like the change and it will make me think a lot more on each shot - which is what I love most about the club - but I think it will also probably cost me some shots over the course of the season...

I will be up the first week in May to see it - I can't wait...I will report back!

[Jud_T]

Definitely will make you think twice about posting a medal score when you're standing on 15 tee even on the day (not that that'll ever happen to me)...

[Chris_Hufnagel]

As part of a birthday weekend in northern Michigan, I was lucky to spend two days with my wife at the Kingsley Club this weekend,  As always, the team there was nothing short of fantastic and we had a great time.  I played 27 holes on Friday and another 18 this morning before driving home this afternoon.  I always enjoy every second on the property...

There are several course changes in the works at the club - the furthest along is the change to cut lines on the 17th hole - I wanted to provide some photos I took this past weekend.  Nothing is really new from what we discussed several weeks ago now, but just some new perspectives on the changes.

From the tee box area...



From just right of the old centerline bunkers at the top of the hill...



From the bottom of the hill in the right hand rough looking back...you can see in this photo that it looks like they are extending the fairway on the right hand side (from the tee) as well a few feet...



From behind the green looking back...



The hole is certainly more challenging now, especially with the addition of the new back (gold tee).  I played both rounds from back there - the first landed in the second fairway bunker right of the fairway and the other on the fairway just inside the left fairway bunkers.  I think it is safe to say that carrying down the hill on the tee shot from this tee is out of the question for me unless the hole is playing downwind and I hit an exceptional drive.  From this tee, even hitting to the fairway bunkers is a very solid hit and you don't get much roll because the fairway rises all the way to the crest before it before it begins down to the valley.

I think the changes are really good and make the hole much more difficult - before it was simply trying to crush a driver and seeing what happened.

For the first weekend in May, I thought the course was in exceptional shape - a tribute to the mild winter and early spring along with Dan Lucas and his team...

I can't wait to get back - if I can't sneak away between now and June 25th - then my next trip will be the "Hundred Hole Hike"!  Six chances in one day to birdie #17...

[Jud_T]

I never thought I'd say this, but IMO it's a better hole with the rough.  It makes you think more on both your tee shot and second shot instead of simply bashing away.

[Tom_Doak]

Well isn't it pretty obvious that narrowing up a hole will make it tougher?

I understand why they have eliminated the left-hand fairway at the top of the hill, but I don't understand why they have eliminated the wider fairway going DOWN the hill for a player who managed to carry the bunkers from the tee -- especially if they've added a new tee to make that carry longer.

[Jackson C]

Well isn't it pretty obvious that narrowing up a hole will make it tougher?

I understand why they have eliminated the left-hand fairway at the top of the hill, but I don't understand why they have eliminated the wider fairway going DOWN the hill for a player who managed to carry the bunkers from the tee -- especially if they've added a new tee to make that carry longer.

Tom,
I believe they are reclaiming some of the rough bottom right as fairway.  See light green strip on the right side of fairway.
Looks like just a few yards, but it is to your point.
Not sure in reality if this will allow a long ball carrying the bunkers from the back tees to stay on the fairway at the bottom.
As Chris indicated, not many will be able to carry from the back.

[Jud_T]

Tom,

Almost anyone who gets over the hill isn't doing it on the fly.  There was a strip of rough beyond the bunkers even when they were mowing the left side as fairway.  Here's a look from above at the new mowing lines (upper left of picture):

[Bill Seitz]

The only thing I'll really miss about that left side is the visual looking back from the 17th green.  I thought the split fairway going down the hill looked really cool.  But it doesn't really change the way I approach the hole at all.  I can't ever imagine myself purposely going at the old left side, so for my game, the change is more cosmetic than anything, and the additional few yards of fairway on the right that they're mowing in will probably help.  So in a sense, the hole is harder because I can't get away with a truly awful hook off the tee, but that's probably a good thing.  It's weird (but not unheard of) to have a hole setup such that a routinely poor shot will really punish you, but an extraordinarily awful shot will really help. 

Here's a couple more aerial pics.  As Chris pointed out, the little strip of light grass on the right side of the fairway (left in the pictures) looks like it's being reclaimed from the rough. 

[Bart Bradley]

But why the native behind the bunkers?  It doesn't make sense now that there is no left fairway, does it?

Bart

[Bill Seitz]

But why the native behind the bunkers?  It doesn't make sense now that there is no left fairway, does it?

Bart

Bart, maybe Dan can chime in, but it looked to me that while that portion hadn't greened up yet, it looked like they were transitioning it to rough.  It didn't appear to be maintained the way the rest of the native grass on the course was maintained, so what you're seeing may not be the finished product, though admittedly it's hard to tell from the pictures.  Couldn't say for 100% certainty if that's the idea, though.

[Greg Tallman]

Seems like an awful lot of work to create a 35 yard swath of rough... anything else like that on the rest of the course? Can it be changed to blend with the native (not irrigated) grasses?

[Jackson C]

Seems like an awful lot of work to create a 35 yard swath of rough... anything else like that on the rest of the course? Can it be changed to blend with the native (not irrigated) grasses?

Greg,
I believe that is the intent -- to blend it in with the native.  That would make sense cost wise and aesthetically.
I don't believe anywhere else on the course will have such a large area of relatively flat (up top before the downhill) area of native.
Looking forward to seeing it grow out this season and next.  Could really turn out nice.

[George Freeman]

But why the native behind the bunkers?  It doesn't make sense now that there is no left fairway, does it?

Bart

Bart - I would agree with you on this, and Tom D. alluded to the same thing above.  But I'm sure the club will get it right in the end (whatever "right" is); they have a great track record with that.

Had the privilege of playing the course this weekend on a beautiful and unseasonably hot day.  Course was in phenomenal shape, which is no surprise at all.  As for the new (new) #17: hit my worst tee shot of the day, pulling the ball 40+ yards offline left, just missing the far left bunker.  My ball ended up about half way down the old fairway in the soon-to-be grown out rough.  Would have made it all the way down if it was still maintained as fairway.  Maybe the club has a point about terrible shots not getting punished properly    

[Will Lozier]

Well isn't it pretty obvious that narrowing up a hole will make it tougher?

I understand why they have eliminated the left-hand fairway at the top of the hill, but I don't understand why they have eliminated the wider fairway going DOWN the hill for a player who managed to carry the bunkers from the tee -- especially if they've added a new tee to make that carry longer.

Totally agree.  Everything seems all for not with the exception of opening up views and the feeling of speciousness.  Strategically, a big blunder in my opinion.  If the there was fairway just beyond the bunkers and the new swath was made native, the hole would seem to have more options and risk/reward factor.

Cheers

[Jud_T]

Will,

Can you carry the bunkers from the new back tee?  Not sure of the number, but I'd guess it's a 275 yard carry.  Also, although it may not look it in the aerial photo, that right fairway is pretty darn wide to begin with...

[Will Lozier]

Will,

Can you carry the bunkers from the new back tee?  Not sure of the number, but I'd guess it's a 275 yard carry.  Also, although it may not look it in the aerial photo, that right fairway is pretty darn wide to begin with...

Jud,

I've never played Kingsley but on a good day - with a bit of tailwind or no wind at all - at that carry I'd certainly give it a go particularly if there was an advantage.  Again, not sure if there is not having been on the property.  But, it just seems the width created by the clearing out was a waste but for the "feeling" of spaciousness - not that it hasn't been an improvement.  I just don't see any strategic gain.

Cheers

[Jud_T]

There is certainly an advantage to getting over the hill as you can get an extra 100 yards roll.  As stated previously, most everyone gets to the hill on one or two hops rather than on the fly.  There's no better advantage to carrying the bunkers than clearing the already wide fairway on the right except perhaps a slightly better angle of approach if you're getting home in two depending on pin position.  As for the clearing, it's still an advantage for the higher handicap to be able to play out of the rough/native rather than take a lost ball in the woods, not to mention a much better vista.

[Will Lozier]

There is certainly an advantage to getting over the hill as you can get an extra 100 yards roll.  As stated previously, most everyone gets to the hill on one or two hops rather than on the fly.  There's no better advantage to carrying the bunkers than clearing the already wide fairway on the right except perhaps a slightly better angle of approach if you're getting home in two depending on pin position.  As for the clearing, it's still an advantage for the higher handicap to be able to play out of the rough/native rather than take a lost ball in the woods, not to mention a much better vista.

Certainly agree with your last two points which may be the only improvements ultimately made?  Shouldn't flying those bunkers be rewarded with a bit of extra width which, in turn, would result in the additional propulsion of my golf ball down the hill possibly to the upslope - I am sure I am exaggerating the extra roll here but, my point is that carrying the bunkers should result in advantage rather than just getting caught up in the rough on a downslope!  Thoughts?

[Jud_T]

You may have a point.  When I actually see someone carry the bunkers on the fly from the tips I'll make the suggestion...

[George Freeman]

Jud,

I've never played Kingsley but on a good day - with a bit of tailwind or no wind at all - at that carry I'd certainly give it a go particularly if there was an advantage.  Again, not sure if there is not having been on the property.  But, it just seems the width created by the clearing out was a waste but for the "feeling" of spaciousness - not that it hasn't been an improvement.  I just don't see any strategic gain.

Cheers

Will - hard to call it a "waste" seeing that the original impetus for creating the width was to dramatically alter the hole and its playing characteristics, for the better.  After a couple years with the new version, the club decided they didn't like the tradeoff in risk vs reward (and probably additional cost) with the new width/second fairway.  Now they’re attempting to correct it.  

Couple things:

- The tree clearing originally done to accommodate the new width has dramatically improved the hole in my opinion, with or without actually having the second fairway.  The first iteration of the hole was very cramped and to me didn’t fit the “feel” of the course at all.  This has been corrected.

- While I really liked the added width/second fairway, the hole is still very good without it.  I would add however that I agree with Tom and Bart re: the grass behind the bunkers.  That native grass behind the centerline (now left side) bunkers was 100% needed when the hole was presented with two fairway routes.  Otherwise long players would literally have had +100 yards of width to hit their drives as long as they could get over the bunker complex.  

Now that the left fairway is gone, I do think the hole would be improved if some portion or all of the native behind that bunker complex was taken to fairway length.  I like the idea of having the benefit of added width if a golfer can make a certain carry (not on every hole of course, but it works well here).  If playing the appropriate tees, that carry should be right at the limit of the golfer’s ability and creates a great risk/reward tee shot.  If you didn’t want to challenge the hill, you could always hit something other than driver off the tee to the wide section of fairway short of the drop off.

[Will Lozier]

You may have a point.  When I actually see someone carry the bunkers on the fly from the tips I'll make the suggestion...

Jud,

I have to get up there to demonstrate!   It may be that they are waiting for the new rough to grow in before cutting the old native?

Cheers