"It's a second shot golf course" ???

[Jay Flemma]

Phil, I'm fairly certain Lawsonia is not a second shot golf course.  You have to drive over the berms to get to the correct angle to the flag.  Are there many ridiculously penal hazards off the tee?  No...but you also can't just drive loosely all over the park and not expect to pay for it around those curvy greens and green surrounds.  So no, Lawsonia is not a second shot golf course, because everything sets up off the tee shot, which must be placed correctly or your chances for a good score on the hole devolve sharply from there.

As to Pinehurst 2 I have a question - did C&C do anything to the greens? or did they leave them the way they found them?  Remember that the USGA did things to those greens, so it may be that the optimum angles to the various hole locations changed over time.

I'll have to defer to others for their opinion for now, I need more info, and there's a lot to study at Pinehurst...

[Phil McDade]

Jay:

You can miss your target by upwards of 30 yards at Lawsonia and still have a reasonable shot at the green. Depending on where you miss, you could be penalized by such waywardness off the tee, or perhaps not. Miss a green by 30 yards at Lawsonia (or even, say, 10 yards), and you almost always encounter severe trouble. To me, and maybe it's a matter of disagreeing about the definition, a second shot course is one in which the course extracts greater penalties for looser play as one gets nearer the green.

[John Shimp]

I think "second shot course" is a a useful term. It means to me you really have to control the distance, spin, and often shape of your approaches to score.  To me,  Its not really about strategy off the tee and angles either as much as that gets talked about.   Its about really hitting thoughtful, quality approaches to make birdies or leave yourself  a chance for par. Second course shots tend to be ones where short and straight of the green is good for par sometimes and bogey a lot.  Pin high and wide is real tough and over is often worse.  Birdies require precision approaches.  In the Carolinas, Camden and Palmetto are second shot courses.

No. 2 is a second shot course for sure as mentioned above.  You can drive it all over the place there now but you better get your approach and leave for the next right.  There are favored angles but you can get it on or provide yourself a good lv from anywhere if you think on your second.  Angc is a second shot course too but the drive matters more there than no 2.

Colonial, harbor town, and muirfield are all around control ball striking courses.  Wouldnt call them 2nd shot courses.  If you hit a good drive they arent so tough or thought provoking into the green vs number 2 or angc.  Also dont think putting is particularly tough at any of these.  The greens are realtively staright forward once the hitting piece is covered.

Torry Pines and Congressional are driver courses.  Really pounding it out there straight makes a huge difference on those places.

A lot of courses arent that classifiable in my mind.  I dont what id call Merion or Oakmont other than a really good all around test.  In various spots tee balls, approaches, recoveries, and putting are pretty tough. 

[Jay Flemma]

 dunno guys, I'm still not convinced.  It seems it could get misused more than it could be accurately applied.  It's certainly not a precise, well defined, well-understood term of art.  It seems like a crutch to lean on rather than something useful for illumination.