Woking/Principal Nose Bunkers-More needed?

[NAF]

I was pondering while standing on the 7th tee (a 598yd downhill par 5 that is straight) at my home club (Tillinghast's Alpine CC) at a fairway that was once devoid of bunkering until you got to the green..Our greens committee decided to put it 2 bunkers in on the right side for slicers..What got me thinking about this was a talk Paul Turner and I had with the super of Piping Rock about their 10th hole where Doak had put in some Principal Nose bunkers and they were removed because a fair shot should not be punished (the membership and committees debated this).  Instead the super put in a great bunker that captures hooked shots but I still think the idea behind bunkers in the middle of the fairway especially on what was a bland hole is a great idea..

If I woke up and went to play my course and we had Woking type bunkers 250yds out right where you want you tee shot to land it would make me think..Instead of worrying about a slice and the 2 tedious bunkers that were put in, I wouldn't just bomb away with my tee shot and not worry about it. I would have to plot my way around the hole. The bunkers put in on my course are easy to get out of also (unlike Woking's 4th) and dont cost the average/intermediate player a shot..Woking-esque/Principal nose bunkers should incur a penalty or place a premium on positioning.

Why don't more designers add this feature to holes that need spicing up...Are they afraid the public or members won't accept a penalty for hitting a straight shot when that is not called for?

[John Bernhardt]

I love features like this on 5's. I find it hard to have a medium length 5 without this type of hazzard to keep the hole honest.

[Pete Lavallee]

Gil Hanse should be commended for incorporating this feature into his courses. The prominent central bunker on the par 5 13th, at the much acclaimed Rustic Canyon, and on the par 5 9th at Tall Grass, in Shoreham, NY are great examples of this very feature. I do agree with Ran however, that if they weren't surrounded by a strip of rough, they would be much more efficient at gatheringing balls, and therefore inducing even more fear in the future. They certainly do provoke thought on the tee shot though.

[Patrick_Mucci]

NAF,

You're omiting a fact that bears relevance in the discussion.

The entire right side of that hole is out-of-bounds from tee to green, with woods/trees lining the left side, with downhill lies as one gets nearer to the green.

In viewing the bunker situation in the context of the entire hole and its perimeter, bunkers in the center of the fairway might be excessive, and Safety net bunkers to catch slices/fades heading out of bounds isn't necessarily a bad idea for the membership.

The previous hole is a terror of a par 4 and the next hole a terror of a par 3.

But, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[SPDB]

sorry if this is off track but was the principal's nose bunker that was added to the 10th at PRC done so because there was evidence that one existed there previously? Also, where was it placed before or after the road?

[Paul Turner]

NAF

I think it could make the drive more interesting.

I don't see the OOB as a problem; after all, the original Principle's Nose hole at TOC (16th) has OOB all down the right hand side.

Flirting with the OOB wouldn't have a huge advantage, but it would make the hole slightly shorter, since the hole turns slightly right.


Interestingly, there were plenty of divot marks where Doak's old bunker at Piping Rock used to be.

[Joel_Stewart]

Does anyone know what happened to the principal nose on the 17th at Yale?   Its my understanding they have cut it down over the years so that now its meerly a small pimple..

[GeoffreyC]

Joel

Its a large pimple short of the 17th green at Yale.  Its covered with tall grass and deer ticks. The 17th is the double plateau hole and perhaps the most natural on the whole course.

This fall Roger Rulewich is scheduled to replace the principals nose bunker complex as well as the lost right greenside bunker.  We'll see how he F***s this one up!

Here is a blowup of the 1934 aerial of the area around the 17th green. It clearly shows the Principals nose complex and the right greenside bunker



ps- I played this past weekend with a fellow who has been playing Yale since 1951.  He has amazing recollection of every detail about the course. Even ones George Bahto did not know about!!!!!   He says "put the course back the way it was".  He confirmed my criticisims of Roger Rulewich's work.  You might think the powers that be would seek out and use such a valuable resource. Tommy sorry but Damien P is not the devil- Roger R is!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Paul Turner,

Is the 16th at TOC wide open to the left, or does it have dense woods running alongside the left fairway ?

[Paul_Turner]

Patrick

It's obviously open.  I think Alpine's 7th would have enough room to the left for it to be the easy route.  

Woking's 4th has OB right (railway line) and trees/heather left with a central P.Nose bunker (see photo in course profile section).  It's a famous hole which works beautifully.

[R.S._Barker]

Ohh boy, the Principal's Nose..yet another subject I know nothing about - although I have heard the term before.

Could someone perhaps direct me to a website or post some background info on this unique design feature ??.

I'm curious as to what the purpose of the design feature is, I.E. does it confound the golfer, or is it more of an obstacle/bunker ?

Many thanks for teaching me even more about the wonderful depth and character that is Golf Course Design.  

Take care,

R.S. Barker

http://members.tripod.com/silverleaf_design/architecture.htm

[TEPaul]

NAF:

What you're talking about there with a bunker in the center of a fairway, for instance, is the exact principle of Max Behr's so-called "line of charm" design and strategy theory!

In my opinion, Behr's "line of charm" theory could be the single most effective design technique to create true strategic golf for anyone and everyone!

His "line of charm" principle worked like this--if you put something like a bunker in the middle of a fairway which Behr called the golfer's "line of instinct" you take that area and option away from him and get him thinking of alternative routes which are the "lines of charm".

By doing this simple thing you can essentially establish the options of hitting over the "line of instinct" (the bunker in the fairway center), laying up before it or playing to either side of it! Far more interesting and challenging to Behr than to get the golfer to play down the middle of every fairway!

The only drawback I can see to Behr's idea is that doing this would require a bit more width on holes than we generally now have. A good example would be NGLA's #8 (the Bottle hole) that has a bunker scheme in the middle of the fairway! To get that bunker scheme in there though requires a fairway that is about 65yds from side to side!

[NAF]

Pat,

No arguments about #6 at Alpine being a terror, I cannot tell you how many times I have been even par thru 5 and hit that hole and doubled or tripled. Also no argument on #8 being our hardest par 3..

I guess I just find #7 pretty dull until you get to that section 150yds from the green where it drops precipitously and leaves you downhill lies for a third pitch..The truth is though about 240yards from the member tees and 270 from the tips is a usually unforseen ledge that gives your drive about 30yds extra of roll and allows you to hit a wood or low iron if you choose that takes the whole downhill lie out of play if you are accurate..you will end up in the rough short of the bunkers that front the green with a tiny pitch.

The only people I see in those bunkers they put in on the right are our women members (due to the placement of the tee) and people who hit bad slices..True it is OB right but those bunkers really don't save you as they used to grow the rough up there and you wouldn't bound into the woods on most shots..The rough was more penal as well than the bunkers.  I would rather they put in a diagonal bunker or something akin to a Woking #4 complex because the tee shot is boring other than the view.  I want to think about something off the tee but perhaps Tillie realized (as I think he did) that Alpine is too tight a track for fairway hazards and that is why he didnt put one in.

I just think for the money the membership spent for those bunkers we could have had a better hazard or something more strategic on the hole.  But as you and I have discussed many times our club is run by consensus.

Just my idea, and I know I am wrong at times..Still love the idea of Woking style bunkers..Debate is good for golf

TEPAUL-thanks, now I must read up on Herr Behr..

[TEPaul]

NAF:

You should definitely read Behr's articles--I've only seen about 5-6 of them and none of them are more than a few pages each but when you decide to read them set aside about a month to do it--he has the most labyrinthine and bizarre way of writing but after a while it's possible to figure out what he's getting at and it's very cool!

[ChipOat]

I don't like bunkers in the middle of fairways - not even at TOC.