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Melvyn Morrow

A few posts over the last week has caught my interest (Castle Course, The Age of Mass Popularity and Natural Golf Courses), not in what they actually said but perhaps what was not mentioned.

First let me say that Golf Course Architecture is certainly not my field, in fact   I am totally ignorant regards the process. However, like wine I appreciate a good bottle when I find one, which is not to say that I would discard all other bottles without trying them first. The same applies with most golf courses.

My view of a course is rather simple, I look at the major points, did I find it
a challenge, was it an enjoyable experience and would I play it again. Then there is the location, atmosphere and balance with the natural surroundings to generate that feeling of wellbeing, satisfaction and a sense of contentment with myself and my game.

I no longer strive to be one of the best, I have no need to prove anything to myself.  I play for enjoyment, relaxation and for the pleasure and experience of absorbing Nature either on a Links or inland environment. There is also the knowledge that I get some gentle exercise from walking the course plus the added bonus that it helps clear the mind of the day to day grind that life can sometimes throw at you.

My game is based upon the traditional Scottish game. It is now solely for recreation, like millions worldwide. Yet many new courses do not reflect this. What is being produced are Championship or competition courses for the handful of Professionals and highly motivated young players who want to prove themselves. Yet this is just a small percentage of Golfers.

Are Clubs and owners of course missing the fundamentals? Of course they want to attract members and visitors so they need to advertise the quality of their product, but as with golfers, not every player can be a champion or qualify as a Pro, same applies to courses. Can the game afford this? In my view, no, we are already seeing the early signs of discontentment.

Golf in the 21st Century is changing, not the game per se, but the format and construction of the course due to environmental pressures i.e. water, drainage soil, grass etc. etc. Plus the final cost of incorporating all of the above and the ongoing cost of maintenance.

I see a need to change, to take stock of events and re look at budgets and most of all the actual location of the proposed course(s). This decision is down to the Owners/Clubs not necessary the Designers as they control the purse strings. If money is not a factor (regrettable it nearly always is) then build the courses how and where you like, but we know these courses are very rare.

I have previously mention the Castle Course, whilst I have seen conflicting reports, my opinion has not changed, the land is not Fit for Purpose, so the course should not have been built on farmland. However throw in £2.5 million and you have a golf course totally alien to its environment. Time will tell if it becomes profitable. It does not appeal to me, it’s totally unnatural, it may play well but there was never a course there on the original landscape. Its not about golf, it’s about money, trading on the name of
St Andrews.
 
As a traditional Golfer I want to see more courses built, but with some more consideration to natural and Nature. I want the courses I play to be part of the regional landscape, to reflect its beauty. Yes, perhaps go back to the 19th Century designers and learn a lesson from them, to minimise massive earth movement to use what Nature has given us. I accept the argument that good sites are getting harder and harder to find, but are we not going to learn, to understand that at the end of the day it’s the Golfer through Green Fees that ultimately suffers. Major land development is extremely expensive, let’s not forget that courses today are a business and they need to keep the turnstiles turning, they need numbers and that can only come from persuading Mr Average to play Golf, not the Pro’s.
 
Many may consider my opinions out of date, of no real value. But I hope that it might make you remember that Golf is an outside game which till recently required the player to walk, then hit a small ball then walk again – the game is passing into the hands of your generation, I just hope you do a better job. No Walking courses are a reflection on my generation and if allowed to continue may well change the face of golf forever.   
 



TEPaul

Melvyn:

I believe that while probably a significant number of golfers share most of you sentiments in your post above, it is probably true to say (and probably always will be true to say) that a significant number don't share your sentiments and probably never will.

In a sense that just may be the true uniqueness of golf and golf course architecture----eg its very wide spectrum of types and styles giving the entire thing a lot of variety and diversity.

About ten years ago I termed this kind of thing "The Big World" theory and I very much believe in it. That certainly doesn't mean I personally like every type and style or even most of them but I think I recognize enough people and golfers like what's out there for whatever their own reasons or it probably wouldn't be out there.

While I think I personally share your particular sentiments about what you like---eg they're basically the same things I like, I do recognize that not all golfers will like those things and for that reason it should never be an expectation to create a total consensus amongst golfers for any particular type and style of architecture or golf.

Mike_Cirba

Melvyn,

That's a terrific post, and while I have to exclude myself from your comments on the Castle Course, which I know little about, the theme of the rest is spot on and you're correct that it was a large part of what I left unsaid in the "Age of Mass Popularity" thread.

In fact, I think our two posts dovetail quite nicely.

I also believe we see the same economic, environmental, and demographic changes at work that golf is going to quickly need to adapt to if we want to see it continue to grow and flourish beyond a small elitist endeavor in this century.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2008, 10:36:39 AM by MikeCirba »

Melvyn Morrow

Tom

I want to stay close to the way I was taught how to play golf. I do not understand why once people get involved with something they want to
change it.

The true beauty of Golf is part and parcel with its environment. There are times after reading an article in a newspaper or Golfing Magazine, that I am rather saddened by the direction golf is going.

I totally enjoyed reading the few comments and seeing the photos from this years BUDA trip to Fife – that’s my golf, hence I am so please to read about the many visitors to Scotland each year.   

Mike

I decided to post my comments after reading your post.
Old Tom kept his £1 per day fee for most of his life to
encourage clubs and course to start up. Whilst spending
much time with the Earls and Landed Gentry, he always
had time for the average man.

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
I haven't gotten much support on this site for what I am about to reiterate here, but I'll say it again:

The grand old courses of the golden age, where very little earth was moved, are generally extremely well drained by underground drainage systems that were very very sophisticated by even today's standards. Drainage technology was very well established by this time period.

If you did not have those drainage systems under those golf courses they would be unplayable and a lot of the grass would be dead for most of the year.

So if you want to build golf courses like that again, you ain't gonna do it cheap. I wouldn't be surprised if the cost could even be equal to what is spent on modern golf courses where a lot of the drainage is designed into the finished grades.

Does anyone out there have any drainage drawings from Seth Raynor or Colt & Allison that they could post here to illustrate what I'm saying here?

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Brad, I for one would be very interested in seeing any such drawings by comparison.  At first blush, I wouldn't believe that golden era courses had "that" much subsurface drainage.  Perhaps a better drainage scheme in efficiency in key areas, with hard clay drain tiles, but more or as much drainage?

Melvyn, the value of the urban or near suburban land is the key factor, IMHO.  Moderate designs, sensible routings and economical construction budgets that can sustain affordable golf are not going to happen without a huge change in the value that communities place on insuring that affordability can be arranged.  Unfortunately (particularly for our friends that abhor any government regulation) that would mean serious societal political value changes to provide subsidies, and tinkering with regulations and zoning, etc., for such land to be available for recreational pursuits in the first place. 

I think that is possible for the design-construction sector to provide affordable golf, if there were a rekindled appreciation for beauty and practicality of natural landforms, or minimally produced golf landform features, if the land prices were within reach of moderate budgetting.  But, I doubt that will happen in the near future. 

Marketting, and corporate/media driven value structuring of what the game is or should be will continue to drive golf consumers away from your view on what golf should be, until there is no more memory of what golf was... I'm very sad to consider as the possible model of where we are going.  :'(
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
We've had this discussion before, both on drainage and construction cost.

If communities wanted affordable golf, they would first donate the land, and then ease the permitting process.  And, subsidize construction for whatever reason, so the course can survive on revenues, without construction debt.  Moving a bit less earth, or putting in a little less drainage probably reduce total cost only a few per cent.

Actually, if we could find a way to avoid cart paths, at about $650K now, that would be something worth considering.  Also, routings need to be more compact.  Every turf acre is 11 sprinklers, more main line, etc.  There is a lot of wasted cart path and irrigation mains in housing courses.

As to drainage, most of the old courses added loads of drainage over time. With interest rates as low as they are, it probably still makes sense to "do it right" the first time and its probably cheaper in both up front construction cost and long term operations cost and maintenance quality.  Once courses showed that it didn't take ten years to get in peak condition, no golfer was willing to pay greens fees or dues and wait for that peak.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Melvyn Morrow

I full understand the comments but I am just wondering if you realised I was talking about (in my Opinion) the original Golden Age of the 19th Century.

Hence the need to seek the appropriate land. Drainage, I believe is part of the selection process to minimise major earth works. We can still learn from the early 20th and late 19th century designers - why make it complicated? 

The customer will decide the fate of all golf courses, but I believe developers are perhaps not the answer in the long term, but the old
style clubs may just prove to be the answer. 

Interesting point about cost of cart tracks.

 

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
I think the main problem is that the best golf land has pretty much been taken already (in the UK), any 'best land' left is likely to be protected or in a remote area, so basically new golf courses are likely to evolve against soils naturally best for golf. Location and good location + $$$$ spent on quality golf course design and construction is still better than bad location with better soils. With $$$$ you can add drainage and make soils better.I am all for cutting costs and making golf courses cheaper but there is a limit to the corners you can cut and a green just mown will take 10 times longer to get as good as modern construction. The golf public demand good playing conditions, the majority like dark green, lots of lakes, water fountains, GpS, yardage books and car paths sadly are all gaining support.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Adrian,

I don't believe all the good land is taken.  Plus, some pretty "bad" land - i.e., quarrys, have been turned into some pretty fine golf courses.

Melvyn,

I understand the attraction of the early last century golf courses, some of which comes with pure maturity.  I agree that ALL of them have added drainage and other improvements, though.  And, some of the maturation process is trees growing, turf filling in, etc.

I agree that there don't need to be many tournament courses built any more.  Plenty can hold tourneys, or be toughened up if need be.  If you are wondering why we can't ignore the 1% of golfers who might want to play 7500 yards, and build courses at 6800 max out, then I would agree.  Not every freaking course has to be built as if some tournament that will never grace its greens might, well, grace its greens.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

TEPaul

"I haven't gotten much support on this site for what I am about to reiterate here, but I'll say it again:

The grand old courses of the golden age, where very little earth was moved, are generally extremely well drained by underground drainage systems that were very very sophisticated by even today's standards. Drainage technology was very well established by this time period.

If you did not have those drainage systems under those golf courses they would be unplayable and a lot of the grass would be dead for most of the year."



Brad:

Honestly, I never knew that. I knew those old Golden Age courses had some underground drainage systems but I didn't know they were in any way sophisticated. I always thought that was why so many of them used and depended on sheet drainage so well.

Fantastic point on your part. I think I'll have to introduce you to Mel Lucas if you do not know him. You guys should have a lot of interesting notes, as it were, to compare in this way.

Melvyn Morrow

Jeff

I saw an article about The Old Course which had not suffered from the Greens being under water for most of Old Tom time as Keeper of The Green. This was the result of his use of the common earth worm, which he encouraged on all the Greens. However between 1908-11 the new Keeper of the Green had all the earth worms poisoned which resulted in surface water accumulating on the course and it being closed after heavy rain, annoying many wanting to play a round. Something that never happened in Old Tom’s time. Many of the other early courses in the UK did not have detailed drainage. These only (I believe) apply to later courses constructed between the Wars

The point is that there are other ways to resolve problems. We just need to accept that we need to be patient, particularly if it saves money which would or could be reflected through Green Fees.

The interesting point starting to surface is that the UK courses will be better placed to accommodate the initial environmental changes than those in the USA. There are alternative options and ways to address theses potential problems i.e. Ian Andrews ‘Caddy Shack’ reports of a couple of months ago. First we have to admit there is a potential problem and that we are willing face up to it, perhaps even consider incorporating some of the very early ideas of basic green keeping.

One thing is for certain – sitting down and doing nothing is not an option if you want local courses. But then it’s only my opinion and may not be shared by many on this site

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Another point to consider with respect to underground drain tile is: in the agricultural regions there was a tremendous amount of drain tile laid in fields before golf courses were even developed. I have no doubt that many golf courses which were built on old farms benefited from the drain tile that was already there.

My own club in Birmingham was built in 1916. My first month on the job I moved several trees with the tree spade contractor who has worked for our club for many years. He told me that over the years he had hit old clay drain tiles all over the golf course. And they just gushed water.

Those old clay tiles are still working. Hell, I bet there are places in the world where the tile that was laid by the Romans are still functioning.

Tim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
I find it interesting how everybody here (you too Jeff) highlight the "golf course" as the main culpret when eschewing development costs.  Let's not forget that fact that most clubhouses equal or exceed the construction cost of the course. Also, lets not forget the palace that some construct as a maintenance 'compound".  And the maintenance equipment??? Mowers that cost more than luxury cars!  Plus, overstaffed operations.  Do we really need greeters like Wal-Mart, 2 guys to wipe off your clubs at the end of the round (even though you have done it all round with that towel hooked to your bag)?  Even rangers (excuss me - on-course assistants)  - do they speed up play? Not that I've ever seen.  They just p-off golfers when they sit there and watch (when the aren't hawking lost balls).

Melvin, I do appreciate your comments. Like Jeff said - it comes with age.  I wish I could play 'off-the-beaten-path' Scottish courses happily for the rest of my days (although the price of food over there would probably break me).
I tend to agree with your comments on Castle Course, does that hold for Kingsbarn too?  Just look over the wall behind the 4th tee at the flat field of grazing sheep if you want to see the "before" topography.
Coasting is a downhill process

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Melvyn,

Your proposition is pretty much dead (but not totally) in North America. GCA highlights the exceptions pretty well. Unfortunately the game has evolved that way for that continent. Too bad, but it's big-box, tabloid architecture; a hype factory with all manner of bells, whistles, housing and fraud; to be more specific... signature architecture fraud. Fraud that's not just tolerated, but sought after!

There is hope outside of North America for what you seek, except I see the young generation of designers following the old US model; rape and shape. It's one, as the resolution Trust Corp firesale revealed, leaves little Marin of Safety for the investor. I've seen pretty good land on the other side of the Atlantic that could have been used in its natural state bulldozed into lump pies.  Beyond that, the biggest problems overseas for most investors are the lack of quality builders and committed architects.

I guess it's called growing pains on the one end, and a saturated market where everyone is fighting to position themselves up the food chain on the other. The howling of the promoters just gets louder.


TEPaul

Tony Ristola:

You're an American right, albeit it one who has run away for some reason?

Consequently, as an American you should know that it is the right and purpose and goal of Americans to rape and pillage Nature and all manner of natural landforms to make them in Man's own image. It is the business of Americans, nay, it is even their God Given Right to reshape the entire world into what we think it should be and should look like. Nature in its raw form may be beautiful for sure but it can also be damned intimidating and hostile and dangerous too----and we Americans MUST TAME IT!!

There are bears and Injuns and other things and other peoples of that ilk out there too that are always trying to do us in and we must do them in first just for our own God Given Right to survive on our land. Oh sure, I know, you might say it was their land first but who cares now because we made them some financial deals they didn't refuse and now they'll just have to sleep in the bed they made. Some may think they should renegotiate with us but that just ain't gonna be on the table or in the cards.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2008, 09:17:24 AM by TEPaul »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Hey Tony:  That's not an American who built the Castle Course, remember.  But I did see an interview with Jack Nicklaus recently where he said somewhat painfully that now that he has stopped playing competitively, the land is his opponent!  I doubt he meant it to come out that way but it's sometimes true of him.  Personally I believe that the GOLFER should be out there to battle with Nature, and it is the golf architect's job to present the battle to him, not to tame Nature for him in advance. 

Melvyn:  I am in sympathy with your thinking but I would not go as far as you do.  I've seen fine courses built on land that wasn't really well suited for golf, and done economically at that.  The other half of the problem is that some of the land BEST suited for golf, in sand dunes, is off limits for development in many places around the world ... so your prescription for developing only suitable sites might be stymied with the result of no new courses at all.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2008, 09:23:04 AM by Tom_Doak »

Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
I find it interesting how everybody here (you too Jeff) highlight the "golf course" as the main culprit when eschewing development costs.  Let's not forget that fact that most clubhouses equal or exceed the construction cost of the course.

This is true not only of new private courses but of new publics as well. I just don't get the notion that some sort of high-end clubhouse is a necessity. Is it considered a competitive necessity?

I just played a local municipal course last week (see the Fossil Trace thread), and was amazed at how luxurious the clubhouse was, and I coudn't help but think "to what end?" A room for folks to sit and have a post or pre-round beverage, perhaps some food......but this place was very lush. I know that it exceeded my own personal needs, but I know that I certainly don't speak for the majority of golfers when I say that an epic clubhouse isn't all that important to me. Now, if I was a member of a swanky private club and had laid down a six-figure fee and had big monthly dues......I might just feel differently.
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Melvyn

You're not going to have many golf courses built in the UK if farmland isn't used.  Think of all the low budget farmland courses built in the UK over the last few decades....functional but not  memorable.   I'd take The Castle Course, Kingsbarns, Dundonald et al over those every day.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Hey Tony:  That's not an American who built the Castle Course, remember.  But I did see an interview with Jack Nicklaus recently where he said somewhat painfully that now that he has stopped playing competitively, the land is his opponent!  I doubt he meant it to come out that way but it's sometimes true of him.  Personally I believe that the GOLFER should be out there to battle with Nature, and it is the golf architect's job to present the battle to him, not to tame Nature for him in advance. 
True, but my claims are accurate in any event. There are no 100% absolutes, but there are pretty strong tendencies, and I did say "There is hope outside of North America for what you seek, except I see the young generation of designers following the old US model; rape and shape."; which is what was done at the Castle Course

Tony Ristola:

You're an American right, albeit it one who has run away for some reason?

Consequently, as an American you should know that it is the right and purpose and goal of Americans to rape and pillage Nature and all manner of natural landforms to make them in Man's own image. It is the business of Americans, nay, it is even their God Given Right to reshape the entire world into what we think it should be and should look like. Nature in its raw form may be beautiful for sure but it can also be damned intimidating and hostile and dangerous too----and we Americans MUST TAME IT!!

There are bears and Injuns and other things and other peoples of that ilk out there too that are always trying to do us in and we must do them in first just for our own God Given Right to survive on our land. Oh sure, I know, you might say it was their land first but who cares now because we made them some financial deals they didn't refuse and now they'll just have to sleep in the bed they made. Some may think they should renegotiate with us but that just ain't gonna be on the table or in the cards.
LOL. I'm on a walkabout. Looking to be back sometime, but I'm not too sure when.  As for reshaping the entire world in the image of America... I'm doing my best ;D

Melvyn Morrow

Bradley

The Early courses did not have drainage as they consisted of rough land adjacent the sea which was really only useful for sheep farming. As golf became popular inland sites started to develope. These sites were again basically waste land – of no real use to farmers. As golf developed and more courses started to appear, the land used was again the corner of a farmer’s field which he did not use and could spare. With the Feather and then the Gutta percha ball, most course built on this type of land consisted of 9 holes due to the size of the plot. Certain course started with just 5 or 6 holes. Many survived well into and passed the (second) Golden Age with minimal changes. As for Roman tiles/drains, not many Romans lived north of the Glasgow/Edinburgh line so I would be surprised to find any evidence of Romans in the Highlands.

Tim

Kingsbarn, now was that not a WW2 Minefield that killed a number of sheep in the late 1940’s?

Tony

I think TEPaul has given a good answer

Tom

We had a brief chat on my original post Land fit for Purpose many months ago. May have a few sites you may like to check out next time in Scotland which once had 9 and 18 hole courses, but now closed and nearly lost. I’ll send you an e-mail with some details – maybe a fun exercise?

Paul

I am a Links man first. As for farmland, it is not always ideal, however I was actually referring to the area around the course conforming and interacting with the course in a natural way. The Castle Course is clearly a man made bomb site converted into a course to generate money for the Links Trust. It maybe successful, players may enjoy the course and it may make money, but to me it is clearly fake, not a links or inland course and it looks at odds with its surroundings. If fake is to your liking and it suits your game, then I hope you enjoy the course but at £120 it’s just an overspill course, there to generate revenue – that my opinion. 


Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Melvyn,

I think your ideas here are mostly with reference to golf in Scotland and Great Britian, and mine are with reference to golf in America.

The linkslands were indeed naturally well drained, but I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that there is extensive drainage pipe even in the linksland courses. I am not familiar with the soils of the heathland courses, or their natural drainage characteristics, but again, I think it would be incredible if those golf courses were not built with a considerable amount of drainage tile in them.


Rich Goodale

I believe that the GOLFER should be out there to battle with Nature, and it is the golf architect's job to present the battle to him,

Tom

This phrase articulates better than I have ever been able to my belief that golf courses per se, are not "strategic."  Golf is a very strategic game, but the course is just the field of play, some of which, of course, are more conducive to stimulating and testing the golfer's strategic thinking (perhaps a way of defining "greatness"?).  Thanks.

Rich

Rich

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Rich -

Up in golf architect heaven, Max Behr is tipping his cap.

Bob

TEPaul

Rich:

If a golf course is conducive to stimulating strategic thinking in golfers I think I would tend to call the golf course strategic. That's probably more appropriate than saying, "My Rich, you seem to be thinking very strategically on this golf course today, I wonder why?"   ;)

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