[Thomas MacWood]

I was wondering about the old fashioned hand-pushed mowers (with no motor) with the rotary blade. Would it be possible to make one that could cut a green to a reasonable level? What would be the fastest possible green speed you could get with something like that?

[Jon Wiggett]

Tom,

in theory you could make one to cut at any height a motorised one will but why would you want such a mower?

[Bradley Anderson]

Tom,

My guess is you could get a traction driven mower to cut as low as .250 inches. Most greens today are cut at .130 and as low as .90.

But you would have to mow three or four directions to get the kind of clipping frequency that you are able to get from a power driven reel.

At that height of cut you would also have to topdress twice a month to keep the thatch under control.

Basically you would get the kind of roll that you might get on a really good tee - 4 to 5 feet maybe. With multiple cutting and rolling you might get 6 feet.

[Thomas MacWood]

Tom,

in theory you could make one to cut at any height a motorised one will but why would you want such a mower?

If and when gas prices reach $7/gallon I was wondering if there might be a practical alternative.

[Bradley Anderson]

Tom,

I checked into this some more and I found a push mower that does go down to .125 inches. The Hudson Star Classic Cut Mower.

But the frequency of cut on a push mower will still be the big issue in determining how tight you are able to cut. To get a power mower level of grooming you would have to cut several times.

I think you'de spend more money on calorie consumption than you would gas. 

[Mike Benham]

Tom,

in theory you could make one to cut at any height a motorised one will but why would you want such a mower?

If and when gas prices reach $7/gallon I was wondering if there might be a practical alternative.

Not to have the lurking Tommy N. jump on my case again (and I am still right), but I assume that a powered walk behind greens mower is more labor efficient than a push mower.  Therefore, the increased labor cost would easily far exceed the increase in fuel cost.  Even an additional 15 minutes of manpower will cost more then a $ 3-4 increase per gallon of gas.

The question that should be asked to the equipment manufacturers, why aren't there electric powered mowers and utility vehicles .... battery power seems to work for moving golfers about.

[Peter Wagner]

If and when gas prices reach $7/gallon I was wondering if there might be a practical alternative.

Tom,
You are worried about saving tiny dollars here.  The engines in greens mowers are very efficient and you could take gas prices to $20 a gallon and it's still a rounding error compared to a clubs other expenses.  Not only that but even if this push mower was available look at the additional labor need to do the work.  Then of course you have to go spend money on new push mowers.

A much more significant fuel issue for clubs is the sudden appearance of 'delivery fees' for EVERYTHING.  Fertilizer, sand, loaves of bread, and lobsters all come with delivery fees to your club.  Totaled up these fees are significant enough that clubs will have to begin increasing their fees to players and members.

So sit on the porch outside the Men's Grill and have a nice lobster sandwich while you admire that beautiful gas powered mower down there.   
- Peter

[Pete_Pittock]

deleted, not germane

[Thomas MacWood]

If and when gas prices reach $7/gallon I was wondering if there might be a practical alternative.

Tom,
You are worried about saving tiny dollars here.  The engines in greens mowers are very efficient and you could take gas prices to $20 a gallon and it's still a rounding error compared to a clubs other expenses.  Not only that but even if this push mower was available look at the additional labor need to do the work.  Then of course you have to go spend money on new push mowers.

A much more significant fuel issue for clubs is the sudden appearance of 'delivery fees' for EVERYTHING.  Fertilizer, sand, loaves of bread, and lobsters all come with delivery fees to your club.  Totaled up these fees are significant enough that clubs will have to begin increasing their fees to players and members.

So sit on the porch outside the Men's Grill and have a nice lobster sandwich while you admire that beautiful gas powered mower down there.   
- Peter

Peter
I'm not so much concerned with the economic viability of a place like Sherwood. I'm thinking more along the lines of a rural nine-hole mom & pop course in Ohio...with a couple farmboys sitting on the steps eating a pb & j sandwich. In some ways those golf courses have more to offer from a pure architectural perspective than the overbaked modern course.

[Peter Wagner]

Peter
I'm not so much concerned with the economic viability of a place like Sherwood. I'm thinking more along the lines of a rural nine-hole mom & pop course in Ohio...with a couple farmboys sitting on the steps eating a pb & j sandwich. In some ways those golf courses have more to offer from a pure architectural perspective than the overbaked modern course.

Tom,
I wasn't thinking of my home course when I wrote my post.  The rural mom & pop in Ohio is exactly the type I was thinking about as they are currently getting bombarded with delivery fee surcharges and they are not in a position to absorb those additional expenses.  I think if you were to survey the rural mom & pop's you'd find that very few of them would list fuel expenses for light weight mowers among their chief concerns.  Delivery fees to rural courses must be higher than ours and I think this will result in higher fees passed on.  I see it as an issue that will only get worse.

Love PB & J's but they aren't on my diet anymore. 

- Peter

[Matt Varney]

Tom,

The walk mowers used today from Toro and Deere do a really good job and the one theing you have to remember is the fine grass clippings from bent greens.  A traditional push reel mower is cool but, if you were to use it today to maintain golf greens it would be really tough and you would have clippings all over the green.  

You would have to walk mow each green at least several times in multiple directions then pull out a backpack blower and blow off each green daily just for clippings.  Toro Triplex Reelmaster riding mowers are used all over the place and Deere makes a good riding greens mower as well.  For the pure look and great roll on greens I feel you have to use gas powered walk mowers with very sharp bed knives so that the cut is perfect and all the clippings are collected in the collection bin that can easily be dumped in natural areas around your course.

 

[Jim_Kennedy]

Tom,
I think Toro has diesel mowers that can be converted to bio. The Mom & Pop just has to sell more french fries and their fuel will be free(essentially).

I'm pretty sure I read that they(Toro) are also working on fuel cell tech for all types of mowing equipment.


edit: electrics have been around for a while, also.

[Grant Saunders]

The question that should be asked to the equipment manufacturers, why aren't there electric powered mowers and utility vehicles .... battery power seems to work for moving golfers about.

Mike

Many of the big companies do in fact offer both electric ride on greens mowers and electric transport vehicles.

They havent really gained popularity apart from situations where noise restrictions have forced the changeover to them. The big drawbacks that I can see with the  electric mower are the limited battery charge (about 4 hours operation) and the extra weight caused by the battery pack (electric 644kg vs gas 487 kg).

Jacobsen have just released an electric walk mower onto the market.

As far as fuel economy is concerned, most ride on triplex mowers are capable of cutting around 1 hectare on 4-5 litres of fuel.

Matt Varney

Many of the push mowers available today have catchers as an option.

[Kyle Harris]

Tom,

in theory you could make one to cut at any height a motorised one will but why would you want such a mower?

If and when gas prices reach $7/gallon I was wondering if there might be a practical alternative.

The question that should be asked to the equipment manufacturers, why aren't there electric powered mowers and utility vehicles .... battery power seems to work for moving golfers about.

Electric Mowers do exist, but are very limited. Every super I've worked for would never use one as they feel there are simply too many potential power and reliability issues for the motor to do the tasks required of the mower.

[Ryan Farrow]

Kyle what is not reliable on them? I have never used one so I couldn't tell you how they feel, but we did have one at Oakmont to test out. I'd image they will get better with time.

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle what is not reliable on them? I have never used one so I couldn't tell you how they feel, but we did have one at Oakmont to test out. I'd image they will get better with time.

That's likely, but as of now, they just don't have the juice to get a good cut day in and day out.

Similar issues to electric golf carts really, no power on hills...

[James Bennett]

Kyle

a number of the better Australian courses that are surrounded by suburbia have one or two electric triplex greens mowers, purely for cutting the greens before golf on the weekend.  The neighbours get upset with petrol engines before sunrise.

Can't comment on the quality, as I don't play at those clubs on weekends.  Nor weekdays for that matter!

James B

[TEPaul]

The most indicative story I've ever heard about fast speeds with hand mowers came from Oakmont under Emil Loeffler. The story is from Bill Stitt who was Loeffler's nephew. Loeffler found a way to file the plates or bedknives and create far more speed than anyone had at that time. Bill Stitt said he was a little kid at that time and it was really tough work mowing those greens. He said he had to put the handle against his belt buckle and push like hell. Pete Dye actually tried to do a stimpmeter reading of those Oakmont greens off old video tapes. Greens as fast as they could get them was another thing that W.C. Fownes demanded.

[Adrian_Stiff]

I have a hand pushed greens mower. I have also used one to cut 18 greens. It takes about twice as long, straight stripes are hard too, I think 0.125" would not be a problem and the cuttings can be boxed just the same. The revolution of the blades is the real drawback, plus its very hard work.

[Jim Johnson]

http://www.reelmowersetc.com/products.htm

[TEPaul]

Is there a good and comprehensive history or archive of the history of golf course mowing equipment anyone is aware of?

[PGertner]

In the mid 1980's I took a position as an Assistant Supt at a highly rated golf club.  The Supt  had just taken this new job.  We took over and made many improvements. 

The previous year, this club was mowing with push reel mowers.  They lost three or four crew members to hernias. 

No joke. 

[Don_Mahaffey]

Kyle, Ryan,

I think in the very near future you will see a conversion of golf mowers from the current power plant/hydraulic driven systems to units that have a smaller power plant that drives an onboard electric generator which drives the unit and powers all the systems. These units use much less fuel as the combustion engines are smaller and can supply the needed energy to the generator while operating with low RPMs.

Less fuel, more powerful, and no hydraulic hoses or motors to fail and kill grass. I'm guessing that within 5 years we will see units like this mowing our greens and fairways.

[Bradley Anderson]

Tom Paul,

The most knowledgable guy out there about old mowers is Mel Lucas.

By the way, if you could post that photo I sent you of the sidewheel mowers at Alwoody, that would be a great picture to stimulate discussion on here about the effect that the power mower would have on the green. Those old push mowers allowed for the putting surface to drape over the sides of greens, and even up and over mounds.

I just don't have the patience to figure out how to post pictures on here. 

[Cory Brown]

Tom Paul,

A good book that has a lot of history relating to golf course maintenance and mowers is "Keepers of the Green".  I believe that it can be purchased through the Golf Course Superintendents Association of America.  www.gcsaa.org

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