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Chris_Clouser

Champions Pointe - Henryville, IN
« on: June 28, 2008, 10:30:25 AM »
Champions Pointe opened its doors in 2007 just north of Jeffersonville, Indiana.    Champions Pointe was a failed development that Fuzzy Zoeller and Clyde Johnston happened upon, took what already existed, including some ponds the prior developer had created, and worked it into a solid routing that provides some challenging and fun golf.  As with Covered Bridge, there is gentle rolling terrain that shapes almost every hole and makes for a nice walk on a beautiful weekend afternoon.  Fortunately, there is not an abundance of trees on site which allows for some excellent views of the surrounding terrain.  Champions Pointe has grown in nicely since opening and is maintained at the same level as all other Zoeller designs, nearly immaculate conditions.  The course is almost flawless from a conditioning perspective.  It is also maintained as one would expect for a tournament style design regardless of when you venture onto the property.

Another unique facet of the conditioning program is the ability to conceal the actual width of the playing alleys by making them seem narrower than their true size.  This speaks volumes about Johnston’s ability to use the scale of the site to provide some mental obstacles and visual deception for the golfer to battle along with the physical hazards.  The deceptively wide fairways often allow for the ideal angle of approach to be used on any hole around the course. 

The 1st tee


The hazards at Champions Pointe are well placed throughout the course.  Bunkering around the course is often in play but actually used sparsely with the total number of bunkers only reaching 46 on the entire course, a small number for a modern design.  Water hazards come into play on eight holes.  As with many of Johnston’s designs the water is laid out on the periphery of the hole with only a couple mandatory carries from the tee.  The water hazards add an element of beauty to the course and enhance the strategic design elements put in place by the designer.

The greens at Champions Pointe are also part of the challenge, alternating throughout the course between excellent two-level greens and to a style that gradually tilts towards one corner of the putting surface.  For a little variety, Johnston also put together a three-level demon on the second hole.  This is just a suggestion, but play below the hole on this one.

2nd green


Holes of note:

Hole 4 - 200 yards - As is typical with Johnston, he opens the course in a subtle fashion with a calm set of holes.  The course then gives a piece of harsh reality with the toughest par three on the layout.  At 200 yards the player must try to hit a green with water and sand directly in line with the tee.  But there is relief to both sides of the green in the form of fairway and chipping area.  The green also features a higher right side that creates an additional degree of difficulty for any pin locations on that smaller portion of the green.



Hole 6 – 506 yards – The best par five on the front side.  It is laid out nicely from the tee, but the second shot is where the hole is made.  The green is tightly guarded short with two bunkers pinching the fairway.  The putting surface is also very solid as it has two tiers and a nice spin splitting the front half. 

Hole 7 – 430 yards – A tough hole with a split fairway.  The key though is to refuse the challenge to go left and cut the distance somewhat.  The right side has a much better angle into the green.

7th tee


Hole 8 – 421 yards - Seemingly, a familiar design element for Johnston is to run water all along one side of a hole and have the strategic elements reward someone for going on the opposite side.  The eighth is such a hole as the player that skims the right side of the hole and near the fairway bunker has a clear advantage.  The well protected green is angled to reward a shot that comes from this side. 



Hole 9 – 433 yards – A fine finish to this difficult stretch.  The best hole on the front nine is the closer.  The hole runs uphill in a dogleg fashion around a cluster of bunkers at the corner.  These bunkers run quite a bit down the right side of the fairway thus increasing the danger the further the players to wishes to play from the tee.  The approach then runs into a green that that is perched atop a plateau and gives a skyline look to the target.  The green caps it off nicely with more than enough contour for any player’s game.

Bunkers on right side of hole


Approach into green


Back nine on second post
« Last Edit: June 29, 2008, 01:29:25 PM by Chris_Clouser »

Chris_Clouser

Re: Champions Pointe - Henryville, IN
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2008, 10:32:57 AM »
Hole 10 – 408 yards - The second nine starts with another hole that uses Johnston’s tried and true formula.  This one features a unique green that is set well above its surrounding hazards with fascinating ground contours leading up to the putting surface along the right side of the hole.  To the left of the green are the deepest bunkers on the course and for those that are way off is the water.  It is from this green that one can appreciate the vastness of the site as there are portions of seven holes in full view from the back of the green.



Hole 15 – 209 yards - What most people will be talking about after visiting Champions Pointe will be the last four holes.  The fifteenth is a gorgeous downhill par three which feeds off of a hill running from the left towards the water on the right.  Very few people can deny the appeal of watching a shot go all the way down hill to a target from 200 yards away.  It is hard to top such a hole but Champions Pointe keeps getting better from this point.



Hole 16 – 597 yards - The best par five on the course follows with a tee shot clears a valley created by a stream running through the site.  This stream is what was originally used to create the ponds on this side of the course.  One the other side of the abyss is an elevated fairway That same stream snakes back around from a retention pond and through another low area and bisects the hole as it doglegs back to the left.  A single tree is the lone specimen that comes into play during the entire round and should be the target for a nicely faded approach.  It is along the left side of the hole and protects the preferred angle into the green complex.  The putting surface is two tiers with the back right being higher than the rest.  It is a beautiful and brilliant hole.

2nd shot over ravine

looking back from behind green


Hole 17 - One might not notice how much they climbed uphill on the last hole until they get to the tee of the seventeenth.  Then the amount of elevation change is revealed to them as they stare down this gem of a hole.  The last third of the hole runs quickly down the slope with large ground contours to a raised putting surface.  From behind the green, one realizes how much work went into the building of this hole and the way the builder networked the wave-like motion of the fairway into the green complex.

Looking back up hole from behind green.  The photo does not do the drop from the top of the hill justice.



Hole 18 - Finishing the course is a difficult hole.  The long par four features water all along the left side and an island fairway is the landing zone for the drive.  Unlike most of the other holes on the course with water, the preferred spot is as close to the water as possible.  This will cut down the length of the approach into the small green.  The shot looks impossible, but the designer did not give the player option.  Another landing zone is situated across the water and to the right of the target that requires much less precision and also an open angle into the green for a safe pitch and possible par.

From behind the green.


One can simply say that this is possibly the best public course on this side of the Ohio River in the Louisville area.  Johnston and Zoeller have provided the cornerstone course of any golf trip to the region.  Champions Pointe may not have met the original intentions of the site, but it would be hard to argue that it did not match its fullest potential with the layout and quality of the golf provided by the course today.

Andy Troeger

Re: Champions Pointe - Henryville, IN
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2008, 11:05:02 PM »
Chris,

Thanks for posting; where would you put this course among all the public courses in Indiana? Would it make the top ten?

Chris_Clouser

Re: Champions Pointe - Henryville, IN
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2008, 11:20:27 PM »
Andy,

Right now I would put it about #15 of the courses I have seen on the public side of things.  But there are a few that might go in front of it that I have not seen yet, so it could slide a little (Hulman, Belterra and Glendarin come to mind).  I think it is a pretty solid design and better than anything else by Johnston and Zoeller in the state I have seen (not been to Chestnut Hills yet).  It is a little better than Covered Bridge and is the best thing in the Lousiville area on the Indiana side of the Ohio River.  I would rate it pretty equal with the Warren Course.  Warren's a little harder with slightly better greens.  CP is a little more fun with a little more strategic design.

For those coming to the Ryder Cup, it is a good place to go.  Probably make a fun 36 when combined with Covered Bridge. 

Ken Fry

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Champions Pointe - Henryville, IN
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2008, 08:49:03 AM »
Chris,

So if I read your post correctly, you're saying The Warren Course would be about 15th in Indiana public courses you've played and has less strategic design than Champions Pointe?  Define "strategic design" in your opinion.

Ken

Andy Troeger

Re: Champions Pointe - Henryville, IN
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2008, 01:12:40 PM »
Chris,
As with Ken I would put Warren much higher than 15th in the state for public courses (3rd-5th give or take). I think Champions Pointe is a course that probably looks better in person than photos though as the elevation changes you mention don't look like much in the photos. Granted...I've gotten used to mountain golf too so anything in Indiana looks flat except perhaps Lake James or Sultan's Run  ;D

I admittedly really liked Chestnut the first time I played it. With all the houses and OB and water hazards (staked on both sides of 17 out of 18 holes if I remember right), I've since changed my mind significantly and am not as impressed with it.

Chris_Clouser

Re: Champions Pointe - Henryville, IN
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2008, 01:27:45 PM »
Andy and Ken,

Yes, I actually have it ranked as 14th currently in the way I rate courses.  It's not the most scientific method I'm sure, but it is the way I look at them.  I think Warren has a lot of things that can be looked at with various degrees of affection, depending on whose eyes you are looking through.  I just looked up to see where Golf Digest had it in their last rankings and it was 8th among the publics listed in the state.  I have all of the courses they have listed above it ranked higher plus some others like Sultans Run that probably have not seen enough raters.  So that leads me to think I might be on to something. 

As for how I define strategic design, it is the graduated rewarding of players who are willing to tempt the hazards presented with their shots.  Hence the closer one plays to the hazards presented and succeeds you are rewarded with a equally better shot on the second.  And yes, I think Champions offers that a little more of that than does Warren.  I think Warren is more difficult and a greater challenge, but that is because I think the hole designs at Warren overall are a little more penal in nature. 

Don't get me wrong, I think the Warren Course is a very good course.  But in traveling the state over the last year or so, I have found so many very good to great public courses it really creates a large surplus of choices to play.  Also, let me say this, I think the difference between say a course that I have ranked among the top 5 in the state, like the Fort for example, and Warren is very small.  Also, that group of courses between say the top 5 and number 20 are not that far apart, we literally are talking about personal preference and splitting hairs.  A good example are my thoughts on Coyote Crossing with Andy's. 

The elevation changes are probably much less than one finds in the mountains, but in Indiana they are significant.  The largest movement is on holes 15, 16 and 17.  Not as much as Sultans Run.  Also Andy will be please to know that the next one of these write-ups will be on Sultans Run.  A course I would say is clearly ahead of the Warren Course and one everyone should get to when they go to French Lick to play the new Dye course. 
« Last Edit: June 29, 2008, 01:40:18 PM by Chris_Clouser »

Andy Troeger

Re: Champions Pointe - Henryville, IN
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2008, 02:32:05 PM »

The elevation changes are probably much less than one finds in the mountains, but in Indiana they are significant.  The largest movement is on holes 15, 16 and 17.  Not as much as Sultans Run.  Also Andy will be please to know that the next one of these write-ups will be on Sultans Run.  A course I would say is clearly ahead of the Warren Course and one everyone should get to when they go to French Lick to play the new Dye course. 

Chris,
I am pleased  ;D  I think Sultan's Run is the best public course in the state, and it doesn't make any of the lists. It seems like the Indiana lists are very Indianapolis-centric, and while many of the better courses are in the middle of the state, there are others such as Sultan's Run (and French Lick most likely too) that deserve better. The Fort and Warren are pretty comparable to me, but as you say to each their own. There's no scientific method that works IMO for such things.

Doug Ralston

Re: Champions Pointe - Henryville, IN
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2008, 04:04:30 PM »
Chris and Andy;

Please hold a spot open in your Top 10 - 20 for when you get to Buck Point. It is an interesting combination of old country course and Dye insights. I predict you will enjoy yourself, especially on the second nine.

Looking forward to your write-up of Sultan's Run, which I also rate in Top 5.

I have GOT to get you two to Dale Hollow, Hidden Cove, and Eagle Ridge!

Doug

PS: Chris, I have just thought of something. While you were in S IN, I should have suggested you cross over to Falls Of Rough, KY to play Lafayette GC. A very nice and enjoyable design. I think Golf Digest once rated it #1 in KY, which it is not, but still more than worth a play.

Bob Barriger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Champions Pointe - Henryville, IN
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2008, 09:09:28 PM »
Champions Pointe is definately the best of the Zoeller courses in Indiana. It probably won't make any of the Top 10 lists, and Chris's ranking around 15-20 is right where I would put it.   Andy, while most of the list for best public might be Indy-centric, that is where the best public courses are in Indiana, within a 50 mile radius of Indy, excluding Warren and Sultans Run. On another note, Wolf Run hosted the Indiana State Am last week and they only played a mild Black tee, which is one set up from the back tees, never reached over 6900 yds and only had one final score under par for the 4 rounds. Andy and Chris as I have said before, the invitation is open. Doug have you had a chance to get to Heritage Hills in Shephersdville, I hear good things. Also Doug, trying to get to the Eastern Ky state park courses in the next month.

Andy Troeger

Re: Champions Pointe - Henryville, IN
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2008, 09:23:41 PM »
Bob,
That's true, but Sultan's Run (and Rock Hollow) seem like they should be top ten level to me, without having played all of the Indy group.

The one under par score is impressive itself at Wolf Run. I was happy to break 80 while I was still playing well. I'd be happy to break 90 in my current state! Look forward to getting back in any case when I get back that way!

Bob Barriger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Champions Pointe - Henryville, IN
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2008, 10:00:27 PM »
Andy, haven't played Sultans in a few years, do remember it had a great set of short par 4s.  Will try and work it in this year and double it up with Victoria National. Play Rock Hollow every year a couple of times as they host the state 4ball,made it to the final 16 last year.

Doug Ralston

Re: Champions Pointe - Henryville, IN
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2008, 10:36:49 PM »
Champions Pointe is definately the best of the Zoeller courses in Indiana. It probably won't make any of the Top 10 lists, and Chris's ranking around 15-20 is right where I would put it.   Andy, while most of the list for best public might be Indy-centric, that is where the best public courses are in Indiana, within a 50 mile radius of Indy, excluding Warren and Sultans Run. On another note, Wolf Run hosted the Indiana State Am last week and they only played a mild Black tee, which is one set up from the back tees, never reached over 6900 yds and only had one final score under par for the 4 rounds. Andy and Chris as I have said before, the invitation is open. Doug have you had a chance to get to Heritage Hills in Shephersdville, I hear good things. Also Doug, trying to get to the Eastern Ky state park courses in the next month.

Bob;

I have played Heritage Hill. For a Louisville course it is nice, unfortunately Louisville has few quality public courses [odd, for KY's largest city]. It might make bottom of Kentucky's Top 20.

If you go to E KY, play Hidden Cove [Grayson], Eagle Ridge [Louisa], and Stonecrest [Prestonsburg]. A good time will be had by all. Please report back. If you have a photographer along, I would love it, as I STILL can't seem to get down this photo-posting thing *sigh*.

Doug

Bob Barriger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Champions Pointe - Henryville, IN
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2008, 06:12:52 AM »
Doug, it boggles my mind, the lack of quality public access courses in Louisville, I was born and raised there, lived there for over 30 years and know the area well. It would seem that someone would put a mid to upscale public access and do well in that area.

Doug Ralston

Re: Champions Pointe - Henryville, IN
« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2008, 12:56:03 PM »
Doug, it boggles my mind, the lack of quality public access courses in Louisville, I was born and raised there, lived there for over 30 years and know the area well. It would seem that someone would put a mid to upscale public access and do well in that area.

Yes Bob, I agree. Strangely, Lexington and the I-75/I-64 area there has a fair collection of nice tracks. Old Silo, Houston Oaks, Big Blue, Kearney Hills, The Bull, Peninsula etc are all nice designs kept in good condition. Oh, I left out Cherry Blossom, which was absurdly rated #1 in 'someone's' ranking, but IS an ok course. It is a mystery why Louisville has such a dearth.

BTW, Heritage Hill IS the best in the area, on the KY side of the river, and worth a play.  I do think HH was intended to fill that gap, but while I enjoyed it [gave it two excellent hole, #17 & #18, and 16 good ones] it just isn't that special.

Doug

tlavin

Re: Champions Pointe - Henryville, IN
« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2008, 02:36:04 PM »
Well, at least you supplied us with a reason not to travel to Henryville, Indiana.

Chris_Clouser

Re: Champions Pointe - Henryville, IN
« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2008, 05:32:09 PM »
Terry,

What does that mean?

Criss Titschinger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Champions Pointe - Henryville, IN
« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2008, 11:08:53 PM »
Please hold a spot open in your Top 10 - 20 for when you get to Buck Point. It is an interesting combination of old country course and Dye insights. I predict you will enjoy yourself, especially on the second nine.

Doug,

Sorry to threadjack, but I just visited Buck Point a couple weeks ago and took a bunch of pics.  I've been meaning to do a writeup here on GCA.  Course was in the best shape I've ever seen it.

Doug Ralston

Re: Champions Pointe - Henryville, IN
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2008, 08:36:19 AM »
Please hold a spot open in your Top 10 - 20 for when you get to Buck Point. It is an interesting combination of old country course and Dye insights. I predict you will enjoy yourself, especially on the second nine.

Doug,

Sorry to threadjack, but I just visited Buck Point a couple weeks ago and took a bunch of pics.  I've been meaning to do a writeup here on GCA.  Course was in the best shape I've ever seen it.

Great! I am glad to get some other inputs on this little gem.

Criss, how was #7. They have had some flooding problems there and it has been a real weak point for the course. But there are so many really fun holes, #4, 5, 10, 11, 14, 15, 16, 17 are my favorites. #14's little rock wall is a Dye signature many will recognize.

I wouldn't likely rate it Top 10 in Indiana, but the course grows on me the more often I play it.

Doug

Chris_Blakely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Champions Pointe - Henryville, IN
« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2008, 12:04:52 PM »
Andy,

Right now I would put it about #15 of the courses I have seen on the public side of things.  But there are a few that might go in front of it that I have not seen yet, so it could slide a little (Hulman, Belterra and Glendarin come to mind).  I think it is a pretty solid design and better than anything else by Johnston and Zoeller in the state I have seen (not been to Chestnut Hills yet).  It is a little better than Covered Bridge and is the best thing in the Lousiville area on the Indiana side of the Ohio River.  I would rate it pretty equal with the Warren Course.  Warren's a little harder with slightly better greens.  CP is a little more fun with a little more strategic design.

For those coming to the Ryder Cup, it is a good place to go.  Probably make a fun 36 when combined with Covered Bridge. 

Have you played Caesar's Chariot Run in Laconia, IN.  I enjoyed Chariot Run a lot more than I did Champions Pointe.  At Champion's Pointe, there are a stretch of holes on the front side after 2 and a stretch on the back after 10 that are quite boring.  Still, many of the holes you have outlined I enjoyed.

Chris

Criss Titschinger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Champions Pointe - Henryville, IN
« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2008, 12:23:33 PM »


Criss, how was #7. They have had some flooding problems there and it has been a real weak point for the course. 

Slightly improved, but not particularly good either.  I'll get into that more when I post my writeup.

Chris_Clouser

Re: Champions Pointe - Henryville, IN New
« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2008, 01:23:17 PM »
Chris Blakely,

Yes I have seen Chariot Run.  I really think the course could be the best in the area if they just did a few things differently.  First off, the bunkers are way out of control.  When I was there the grass was literally over a foot tall around the bunkers and in many instances in the bunkers.  They seem very proud of their current bunker situation.   :o

Second, evidently they have switched the nines on the course.  Now that wouldn't normally affect my opinion, except what is now the 9th would be a much better hole to finish the course with in my opinion.  From what I gathered, they did it because they think the current 18th is prettier with the water hazard alongside it and it is a more difficult finish.  The 9th might yield  more birdies, but as a resort course, wouldn't you want people leaving with a good feeling about their round.  I would think that would generate return business.  Plus I think the rhythm of the round would be better the other way.  As it is today right in the middle of your round you have four of the longest holes back to back to back to back. 

Third, the greens were for the most part bland.  The 15th was a great little par three with a nice green.  But aside from that, many were very flat or only slightly tilted one way or the other.   I can see this for the most part because it is a resort course and the thinking might be to challenge the golfer up to the green and not give them what they might consider a "tricked up" course.

There is a lot of potential there but the maintenance meld made it a little unpalatable for me.  There were some great holes as well.  I think the 6th is a clever little par four and the 14th is one of the best holes in southern Indiana, if not the state.  Something else I noticed is that many of the holes are very penal or heroic in design.  Not a lot of strategic elements.  There is a lot of risk/reward or you end up laying up or playing cautiously all day.  That is not a type of game I am that great at or appreciate for an entire round.

Also as a plus, I thought the routing was really well done.  I think if they had just stuck with the original design by Bergin they would have a much better product on their hands.  In some ways it reminded me of my feelings about the Purdue course. 

Also, I agree with your comment on Champions, especially on the back side.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2008, 01:31:12 PM by Chris_Clouser »