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[Dan Herrmann]

Dottie Pepper today - "This green complex is a bit of a redan" when describing how balls were rolling on a par 3 at Interlachen.

I was very pleasantly surprised.  Great to see a TV golf commentator talk intelligently about architecture.

Gotta love those native upstate New Yorkers!  (yes, I'm a native upstate NY'er)

[John_Conley]

Which is the Redan?

#4 has the bunker on the R side and seems to just have a hard slope L.

#8 has a reverse Redan vibe, but it is just a green that breaks R.

#12 certainly isn't like a Redan.

#14 is severely downhill and just has a green that site sloping toward you.

I wonder which hole she said that about.

[Phil McDade]

Patrick Hodgon's nearby thread w/ Interlachen pics suggest #4 is Redan-like, with something of a L-R slope affecting balls hit on the right side of the green. From the pic, it looks more Eden-like, althought the front-to-back green slope is wrong.

[Dan Herrmann]

Actually, she did call it a reverse redan.

But I just deleted it off my DirecTV DVR.

[Dan Kelly]

If it was No. 4 Dottie was talking about:

Well, it slopes front down to back, and right down to left. But it's seriously downhill, and there's nothing the least bit "fortress-like" about it.

Cool hole -- but no Redan, unless I'm seriously misinformed (always a possibility).

[Dan Kelly]

I'm watching my tape as I type. (My daughters and I were out there today.)

Dottie JUST NOW said it -- of No. 4: "a bit of a Redan -- away and right-to-left."

[John_Conley]

I can't remember what the word "Redan" means, but the trick of a Redan par 3 is that in order to get to your target you have to aim away from the target and count on a kick.

That hole (13 for member play) is just one that sees balls roll to the left collar.

No Redan in my eyes. 

Maybe to a front pin you can hit a shot just short R and squeeze in between the bunkers.  A Redan-style shot.

[Dan Herrmann]

Shoot - well, at least the intent was there

[Dan Kelly]

I can't remember what the word "Redan" means, but the trick of a Redan par 3 is that in order to get to your target you have to aim away from the target and count on a kick.

That hole (13 for member play) is just one that sees balls roll to the left collar.

No Redan in my eyes. 

Maybe to a front pin you can hit a shot just short R and squeeze in between the bunkers.  A Redan-style shot.

John -- I saw a bunch of the women playing the bounce-up shot today, flirting with the bunker and watching the ball trickle all the way back to the back-center pin. All of the closest shots I saw, in fact, landed short of the green and bounced past the left edge of the right greenside bunker. I was surprised to see NO ONE play a fade into the front center of the green.

[John K. Moore]

I don't think Dottie was trying to say the hole was an exact Redan, just that it has some of the same qualities that the original hole did. I can think of one hole off hand that has the right to left canted green and bunkers, but the green, as I recall, slopes from back to front. Perhaps not exactly a Redan, but has some of the qualities of one, so it could be said that its "a bit of a Redan." She never said it was a full Redan hole.

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Maltby had said almost the same thing about twenty minutes before

[Phil McDade]

I can't remember what the word "Redan" means, but the trick of a Redan par 3 is that in order to get to your target you have to aim away from the target and count on a kick.

John:

A Redan is a French term related to a fortication, associated with repelling attacks. An old British general of some sort gave the hole its name when he came across the famous 15th at the North Berwick links.

The beauty of a Redan is that it can be attacked in several ways. The coolest approach is the way you describe. One can also take dead aim at the flag (ideally placed on the left side of the green), but the risk and penalty is much greater. Ideally it should be played at @ 190 yds. (perhaps less for the women). They can also be approached in the way Dan saw it today.

Having said that, I don't think the 4th at Interlachen is really a true Redan, but perhaps as Pepper suggests it possesses some Redan-like qualities.

[Tim_Cronin]

I'm just happy some associated with NBC's coverage (on ESPN) gets architecture. NBC personnel worked the Walker Cup at Chicago Golf Club (on Golf Channel) a few years back, and, to my knowledge, never did anyone on the telecasts get specific about the architecture of a hole. A golden opportunity missed.

[Garland Bayley]

It seems that Patrick Hodgon on his Interlachen tread, and Dottie are in agreement thinking #4 has Redan qualities. Don't suppose she has been reading the Interlachen thread here do you?


EDIT
Come to think of it, if she really said "green complex" then there is a good chance she has been reading here.

[Dan Kelly]

if she really said "green complex"

She didn't.

[Dschmidt]

I'm just happy some associated with NBC's coverage (on ESPN) gets architecture. NBC personnel worked the Walker Cup at Chicago Golf Club (on Golf Channel) a few years back, and, to my knowledge, never did anyone on the telecasts get specific about the architecture of a hole. A golden opportunity missed.

How could they?  They had no time to without ignoring their #1 duty -- calling the birdiefest that was going on as the top amateurs tore it to shreds... oops, I'm not supposed to say that... 

[Mike_Cirba]

Maybe Dottie's been lurking here on GCA where everything under the sun seems to be a redan when it suits someone's convenient purpose.      

[Jim Nugent]

I'm just happy some associated with NBC's coverage (on ESPN) gets architecture. NBC personnel worked the Walker Cup at Chicago Golf Club (on Golf Channel) a few years back, and, to my knowledge, never did anyone on the telecasts get specific about the architecture of a hole. A golden opportunity missed.

How could they?  They had no time to without ignoring their #1 duty -- calling the birdiefest that was going on as the top amateurs tore it to shreds... oops, I'm not supposed to say that... 

Dave. a preview of what's to come in 2013? 

[TEPaul]

I think Dottie Pepper is terrific on air and certainly with some of her comments on set-up and architecture. She got my attention that way when she was announcing the US Women's Amateur at Newport a few years ago. She said she loved Newport. Dottie was the MC at the USGA Palmer Center Open (although I'm not sure why) and I love her style when she speaks. She introduced all the speakers and she first introduced Jay Rains the Museum/Library chairman and vice president but she introduced him as the USGA president with USGA president, Jim Vernon, sitting at the other side of the dias. Jay got up to speak and thanked her for her battlefield promotion. Surprised, Dottie checked her notes and just gave him a wry smile. On air, she's calm, informative and can be pretty funny, all of which seems pretty different than I remember her as an ultra tough competitor.

[Wayne_Kozun]

I think Dottie Pepper is terrific on air and certainly with some of her comments on set-up and architecture. She got my attention that way when she was announcing the US Women's Amateur at Newport a few years ago. She said she loved Newport. Dottie was the MC at the USGA Palmer Center Open (although I'm not sure why) and I love her style when she speaks. She introduced all the speakers....

I hope no one spoke out of turn because she then would have made everyone redo their speeches!

[Mike_Cirba]

I'm just happy some associated with NBC's coverage (on ESPN) gets architecture. NBC personnel worked the Walker Cup at Chicago Golf Club (on Golf Channel) a few years back, and, to my knowledge, never did anyone on the telecasts get specific about the architecture of a hole. A golden opportunity missed.

How could they?  They had no time to without ignoring their #1 duty -- calling the birdiefest that was going on as the top amateurs tore it to shreds... oops, I'm not supposed to say that... 

Dave. a preview of what's to come in 2013? 

Jim,

I don't seem to recall an amateur birdie-fest at said venue during the 2005 US Am.

It may happen, especially with soft conditions, and rain during the week no question.

But, if they get a dry firm course, it'll be fun and edgy, and with the palpable history and ghosts lurking across the property, we may get some magic yet! 


p.s.   If Dottie calls the 10th hole an "Alps", I'm going to personally cliimb up the ladder into the booth and toss her into the Ardmore Avenue. 

[chipoat]

Jim Nugent:

If the wind blows as normal, I don't see a birdie-fest.  It's too hard to get the ball to stop close to the hole - especially downwind.

The wind does tend to be less of a factor before 10:00 in the morning or so.  But by Noon each day, the National should offer all the challenge the world's best amateurs can handle.

[Jim Nugent]

Mike, I meant during the Walker Cup.