[Matt_Ward]

Garland:

The men's tour invasion has not worked and frankly I am not the only media member who has dubbed it a circus like show.

Again, when confronted with the facts of what has happened the zealot pro Wie crowd always looks to blame the non-believers for what they have seen as being against her success. That's not the case -- I just don't see hyping a story that has not been delivered to date.

John:

Where the hell do you get off throwing personal insults at people ?

I've given Michelle plenty of credit -- it's just not the "let's gush at all situations" type that you've been heaving around with no end in sight.

It's you and the others let's only see Michelle as the 11-to-13 year-old person when she's a god bit older now and the record of recent vintage is not as compelling as all the drooling zealot Wie fanatics would like to extol.

How bout you balance out the PR flak comments you and others have made and try to put forward what she's done recently and how Team Wie / Michelle has gone about their attempt to be-all when the scores and results -- from recent times -- say the last two or so years -- have not been forthcoming.

Oh, I see John, you throw forward personal invective because you've got a hand of cards that don't wash with the facts.

Hey John, stop sipping the ultra-strong kool-aid. The Wie fanatics don't look being told that we should just wait and see what happens before all the gush talk of the second Tiger at work.

The Korean contingent you see now on the LPGA Tour is not going to stop and wait for Michelle / Team Wie to sort things out.

John, it's always easy to tag those who see things differently as "rant" comments. Zealots can't stand the fact that maybe, just maybe, their original assessment was a bit more than what reality -- the kind others pointed out at the outset -- has demonstrated to date.

[Garland Bayley]

...

Where the hell do you get off throwing personal insults at people ?

...

Matt,

The personal insults you have thrown in what appears to be a vindictive manner at Michelle Wie and her associates leave you no room to raise the above question.

When will you learn? If ever?

[John Moore II]

There was a time when a case could be made that Wie was the best female planet in her age group (say one year older and one younger). You can't say that any longer.

Exactly.  And when she was 12-16 she was better than any boys her age too.

And now she's better than far less of those players than she used to be. Morgan Pressel, Paula, and a load of Koreans have surpassed her due to Michelle failing to fully commit to anything. She needs to either quit school or quit trying to play high level golf on the tours for a few years. That way she can fully focus on one thing or the other. I think she can be great again, she just needs to do it HER way, not her dad's way or some other buffoons way.

Are Morgan and Paula really better players or have they had better results over the past 18 months? Why do writers and people think golf is like a batting average?? She is clearly a better player right now, just not getting the results because of what she is doing in her life at the moment and what is happening to her. Tiger went through a swing change in 98 and O'Meara won two majors that year, did you think O'Meara was the better player? John Daly shoots in the 80's with reckless abandon on tour, but it doesn't mean that an amateur is a better player.

If you would like to bet that Pressel or Creamer will win more majors in their career than Wie, let me know, otherwise don't for one minute say they are better players. Say that they have been playing better, huge difference.

Glenn-Thats a two sided question. If Wie continues to get poor advise from her parents and Leadbetter, then I think Paula will win more majors that Wie does. If Wie ditches those advisors, then she will likely win more than Paula. Assuming of course she commits full time to playing the Ladies Tour.

[John_Conley]

Matt, the only thing that could possibly be construed as an insult was noting that you behave like an obsessed loser when the Wie subject comes up.  Why is it important to you that nobody ever say anything complimentary about her?  Seriously, I don't get it.

You can ramble on all you want.  I'm not sure how you reach the conclusions you do.  Your post is directed at me.  Have I said any of the things that bother you?  Your problem seems to be with those close to her, a group most likely directed by her father

How do I only see her as an 11 or 13 year old?  She's a college student that sampled life as a freshman and had some type of relationship with one of the Lopez twins.  I think the norm for young women of her age is to go through personal growth at that age.  While it may not be healthy for the present state of her golf game it certainly is for everything else.  You chastise her for needing to get away from her parents.  Funny, school is just that.

How is it my responsibility to "balance out the PR flak"'s comments?  I don't know where this comes from.  I don't pay heed to comments about winning the Masters someday so I ignore all of it.  You obviously obsess over it.

How has she played the past two years?  In 2007 it was all crap.  In 2008 she was erratic and unfortunately married her best showing to yet another of her rules-related gaffes.  She has not played well if you compare this year to her best years.  I don't know why it is necessary to belabor this point.  Has anyone ever said different?  (I don't care if they have.  You'll certainly include me in the spirit of their comments if they did.  Why?)

Hand of cards that don't wash with what facts?  You are into just plain silly talk.  As I've said, Matt, it is impossible to respond.  This is just gobbledygook.  I can just as easily say your Wie ladder stops a few rungs short of the IMG treehouse.  I have no idea what that means either.

Has anyone asked that the young Koreans tone it down so Wie looks better in comparison?  You are off your rocker to imply such.  What I see, albeit from as far as possible, is a talented golf one-time prodigy who just may not have the drive to be the best.  Mats Wilander won three Majors in either 1987 or 1988 and never played top tennis again.  Guy Lafleur kept lacing up the skates but stopped playing with his trademark flair after about age 30.  Bobby Jones and Sandy Koufax said no mas before Duran coined the term.  This is what sets people like Jordan, Woods, and even Phelps apart.  Reach the top and then continue on.

Nobody, emphasis needed, NOBODY has ever said anything I've heard or written anything I've read that ever implied Michelle Wie had the eye of the Tiger and was a cutthroat champion.  She is immensely talented.  Do you not see the difference?

It is fine that you see things differently.  What you have consistently done, and it doesn't cast your character in the brightest light, is get upset when others aren't hyper-critical about a girl (now young woman) that plays golf.  When was the Ward Edict issued that nary an encouraging word be spoke about Michelle Wie and what authority do you have so others should obey?

Matt Ward, Arbiter of Golf Achievements.

I guess I missed the proclamation.

[George Pazin]

John C:

Really?

Obsessed loser?

Yep.

[Craig Sweet]

I hate to do this, but some people fail to understand the "hype" that Michelle Wie generated before the age of 15....please note, that for a girl that "needs to learn how to win", she sure has won a lot.  Here's some "hype"....

2000 - 10 years old

As a 10 year old, Michelle Wie participated in various junior hawaii tournaments, usually in various age brackets such as 11-12 or 14-15 or adult ladies events.
She won various events including:
- OJGA Stroke Play Tournament At Hawaii Country Club, Girls 11-12
- OJGA Nine Hole Stroke Play Tournament At Kapolei Course Girls 11-12
- Mayor's Cup at the Ala Wai Golf Course - ladies flight
- OJGA Tour Championship At Makaha Valley Country Club Girls 11-12

She also became the youngest ever qualifier for the US Women’s Amateur Public Links Competition at 10 years of age, and she qualified through the stroke play section of that tournament before being knocked out in the first round of matchplay.

 2001 - 11 years old


Michelle Wie won her first event of the year:
- OJGA Stroke Play Tournament At Hawaii Prince Golf Club, Girls 11-12
She won this event by 11 strokes and it was clear that she needed to play more with older age groups to get more competition, and this appears to be the time she started to play against more ladies adult competition.

Playing more events with ladies adults did not hurt her progress and she went through a raft of titles, winning all the major Hawaii stroke play titles with the exception of the Hawaii State Open (where she came 2nd and which she came back to the following year and won by 13 strokes).

Some of her ladies victories included:
- Jennie K. Wilson Invitational at Mid-Pacific Country Club (the most prestigious women’s amateur tournament in Hawaii) (won by 9 strokes).
- Hawaii State Women’s Stroke Play Championship at Mid-Pacific Country Club
- HSJGA Junior Tour, girls 15-18, at the Poipu Bay Golf Course
- Hawaii State Junior Golf Association’s Tournament of Champions - Girls 15-18.

She also tried her hand at some Hawaii mens events including:
- Manoa Cup Hawaii State Amateur Match-Play Championship (first and youngest female (age 11) to qualify for match-play dating back to 1907).
- Mayor's Cup Golf Tournament, 2001- Championship Flight, 25th place.

She again qualified for the US Women’s Publc Links and improved on her previous performance, getting to the last 16 (3rd round) of the competition.

 2002 - 12 years old


At this stage it was becoming obvious that there was not much competition for Michelle in Hawaii ladies golf competitions. So attention started to focus more on the mainland for women's events, as well as playing some mens events in Hawaii.

Mens
- In early 2002 she played in a Hawaii mens professional tournament, The Hilo Invitational Golf Tournament, where she finished 47th of the 124 players. The tournament was won by pga tour pro Dean Wilson.
- She also came 17th in the Hawaii State Amateur Stroke-Play Championship (MENS).
- At the Manoa Cup, she became the first and youngest female (age 12) to advance to the second-round of match play.

Ladies
- In February, Michelle entered qualifying for the lpga event, The Takefuji Classic, where she qualified, and became the youngest player ever to Monday Qualify for an lpga tour event (at 12 years of age). The previous youngest was Natalie Gulbis at 14. At the event itself she shot rounds of 72 and 74 to miss the cut by 3 strokes.
- In July, Wie entered Monday qualifying for another lpga event, The Wendy’s Championship and again qualified, this time with medalist honors. At the event itself, she missed the cut by just 2 strokes.
- Between those lpga events, she had again qualified for the US Women’s Publinx and this time improved her performance again, getting to the Semi-Finals of the competition, a performance that meant she automatically qualified for the following years competition.
- She also played the Trans National Women's Amateur Championship, and became the Youngest Junior Medalist in the history of the event.

More Mens Events
After the majority of her mainland ladies events, she went back to Hawaii, and played 3 adult male amateur tournaments. Her results were:
- Barbers Point Invitational Tournament, 4th place.
- Hickam Invitational Tournament, 5th place.
- Mayor's Cup Golf Tournament, 2002- Championship Flight, 20th place.

 2003  - 13 years old


MENS
- After such a successful 2002 season, she started her 2003 campaign by attempting to qualify for the pga event, the Sony Open. She shot a very credible 73 (1 over) from the championship tees (Par 72) at the Pearl Country Club, but did not qualify for the Sony Open itself.
- Next she played the Hawaii Pearl Open where she made the cut and finished 43rd in the 193 player field.
- Next she played the Hawaii State Amateur Stroke-Play Championship and had a very impressive 4th place finish. To put this result in context, Wie was 13 years old and this field of male amateurs included Parker McLaughlin (who Wie finished 8 strokes ahead of). Parker would go on to gain a full pga tour card for the 2007 season.

LADIES
- In March 2003, Michelle received a sponsors exemption to the Kraft Nabisco Championship. The Kraft Tournament had a long history of giving exemptions to top amateurs, and because of Michelle’s excellent amateur record, as well as her two successful attempts at qualifying for lpga tour events her exemption was well deserved. However, as much as people had been impressed by her record, most were shocked when she recorded a 9th place finish there. Nobody of that age had ever made a cut in a major, let alone finished in the top 10.
- She also went through qualification for the US Women’s Open and qualified. At the US Women’s Open itself, she placed a very credibile 39th, becoming the youngest player to make the cut at the US Women’s Open.
- Add to this she won the US Women’s Public Links Competition, (the youngest player ever to win an adult usga event).

The combination of these successes meant that lpga tournaments were eagerly lining up to offer her exemptions to play their events.
- In total she played 7 lpga events in 2003, missing the cut in just one of those events (by one stroke at the Jamie Farr Classic) and making the cut in all 6 other events, with placings of 9th, 28th, 33rd, 38th, 52nd and 69th.

I won't bother with her results at age 14,15 and 16....needless to say she continued to excell...

[John_Conley]

Craig, don't confuse Matt with the facts.  He's dwelling on the fact she played like a goat (not an acronym for Greatest of All Time) in 2007 and did not win in 2008.  Those results matter not, just like your opinion doesn't either.

Michelle Wie sucks and we all should hate her. 

When you tell me that animosity to a college freshman we don't know is embarrassing you and everyone else should know that Michelle Wie isn't a person, but a brand name used to describe 'Team Wie' - and all of those people are adults that should know better.

[Bob_Huntley]

J. Kenneth Moore,

You wrote:

"Glenn-Thats a two sided question. If Wie continues to get poor advise from her parents and Leadbetter, then I think Paula will win more majors that Wie does."


Trust me, David Leadbetter is her Swing Coach, nothing more, nothing less.


Bob 

[John Moore II]

J. Kenneth Moore,

You wrote:

"Glenn-Thats a two sided question. If Wie continues to get poor advise from her parents and Leadbetter, then I think Paula will win more majors that Wie does."


Trust me, David Leadbetter is her Swing Coach, nothing more, nothing less.--And likely not the best she could get. As opposed to, you know, Butch Harmon or Hank Haney. Tiger sure thinks they are OK teachers, and he's a fairly good golfer last time I checked


Bob 

[JESII]

JKM,

Are you proposing to tell Bob Huntley that Michelle Wie should work with Butch Harmon or Hank Haney?

How ridiculous can a thread get?

[John_Conley]

Yeah Jess, clearly the problem is that she's worked with the wrong instructor.

She was great way before Leadbetter stepped into her picture.

[John Moore II]

JKM,

Are you proposing to tell Bob Huntley that Michelle Wie should work with Butch Harmon or Hank Haney?

Maybe, maybe not. I was just saying that Leadbetter is likely not the best instructor out there.

How ridiculous can a thread get?

Very ridiculous. But it got to that point far before I mentioned Harmon and Haney

[Ken Moum]

JKM,

Are you proposing to tell Bob Huntley that Michelle Wie should work with Butch Harmon or Hank Haney?

How ridiculous can a thread get?

In fact, her decline in performance seems to coincide with the departure of Gary Gilchrist from the Leadbetter Academy.

Whether that was any part of the cause i open to debate.

K

[John_Conley]

In fact, her decline in performance seems to coincide with the departure of Gary Gilchrist from the Leadbetter Academy.

Whether that was any part of the cause i open to debate.

K

I had dinner with Jeej in Hilton Head the week the whole Leadbetter-Wie-Gilchrist separation occurred.  He's now in the Orlando area at Mission Inn but I haven't seen him since that night.

To be fair, she was great before he started working with her too!

The problem isn't with instruction.  As Matt correctly points out, she has been twisted in many different directions by people looking out for her (I think it all points back to Dad) and may not have an incredible killer instinct like Creamer and Pressel.

Harken back to that night at dinner.  Jeej said some very complimentary stuff about Creamer's competitiveness.  He worked with her at Leadbetter's Bradenton complex.

[Matt_Ward]

Craig:

Yes, do bother with the most recent years shall we. I love how history people love to insert the part of the record book that dovetails with their set position.

Craig, be sure to indicate the complete record.

I saluted her past accomplishments -- the emphasis is on the word past. It's not unfair or pigheaded to point out that in the last few years the Michelle Wie momentum (that her proponents seem to believe is automatic) has stalled in a big time way.

Of course, be sure to throw forward the following ...

1). The injury excuse

2). The teenage excuse

3). Bad coaching

3). Anything else that can be inserted or all of the above



John C:

Let's rewind the tape shall we.

I saluted her accomplishments in getting to the US Open sectional qualifying and observed her quite closely during the event at Canoe Brook, Summit, NJ. I also mentioned how she alone could generate the type of media interest and fan involvement that she did. That is just one example of my being a bit more even-handed than the genuflect Wie types who won't acknowledge the reverse side.

I never said the word "hate" and frankly you are inserting items I have not said or even implied. I have been especially keen to highlight the role of Team Wie and how that involvement has caused any number of issues to arise.

John -- here's what I see that you as a pro-Wie supporter don't. The gal has a marvelous swing in many ways but her short game -- particularly her putter from close in range -- is not on par with the top quarter of the female players on the LPGA circuit. The so-called "aura" she formerly had is no longer at the same degree or even feared.

You talk about her sampling other aspects of her life. Great. The issue is about her golf game and fulfilling all the expectations she has caused from the successes she had at a very early age. It's very possible the "eye of the Tiger" will never be front and center with her. It may be she also needs a slight detour before coming back to the game. Either way -- the issue rests with her resolve and it seems from my perspective that talent alone is not going to be the key differential for her when matched against even fiercer competitors.

John -- retrack all the comments from past Wie threads. The words are there that many believed she would be the next Tiger or even beyond. You may not have said such things but they are there if you look for them. These same people have disappeared faster than a speeding bullet because they know their original assessments aren't panning out.

I wish Michelle well and have said so -- but I have kept this inane Wie will conquer worlds mentality in perspective. The golf highway is littered with the "next best champion" and often times it rarely comes out that way. Pity the poor person who tries to bring some sort of reality to the party. Then labels of all types are thrown against them because the arguments have been challenged and not been refuted on merit. When the message doesn't play -- shoot the messenger. Very convenient.

John, wake up and smell the coffee -- the fog you are in is self-imposed. I thought you were a much smarter guy than you come off on this thread. Forgive me for that error too.

[John_Cullum]

Obsessed Loser! Man, that's pretty harsh.

[George Pazin]

The problem isn't with instruction.

The only real problem with Michelle is the impatience of those judging her.

[Garland Bayley]

... As Matt correctly points out, she has been twisted in many different directions by people looking out for her (I think it all points back to Dad) and may not have an incredible killer instinct like Creamer and Pressel.
...

John,

Unless you can specifically give factual evidence of "she has been twisted in many different directions by people looking out for her", such comments are best prefaced with "I think" like you followed up with about her dad.

However, that is not why I responded to your post. We are now back to what we were discussing before the conversation was hijacked by Matt. The problem I suspect is that it came too easy for MW. She did not have enough situations where she had to tough it out, so I think she is short on toughing it out competence. That is what I was alluding to when I mentioned her loss to Ms. Tseng, and her failing to keep herself within the cut line on the PGA Tour when she had reached that point with a few holes to go. You may actually find that she is extremely competetive, but does not have near the quantity of experience of the tight situations that Creamer and Pressel have had.

Compare her competitiveness to Annika, who played the PGA Tour once and then gave it up. Isn't Michelle's willingness/desire to give it a go multiple times an indication of competetiveness? And, yes I know what else you could call it.


EDIT: Woops, wrong John.
Matt, butt out. We're trying to have a serious discussion here.

[John_Conley]

Obsessed Loser! Man, that's pretty harsh.

Sarge:

Rather than recognize this and say, "gee...do I?  I certainly don't want to come across that way," and tone it down Matt reverts right to the attacking rants.

Seems like I'm not the only one that feels that way.

Matt is convinced everyone that ever said anything good about Wie is an idiot.  I'll let you judge whether he's right.

Does his argument make any sense?  No.


John -- retrack all the comments from past Wie threads. The words are there that many believed she would be the next Tiger or even beyond. You may not have said such things but they are there if you look for them. These same people have disappeared faster than a speeding bullet because they know their original assessments aren't panning out.

"These people have disappeared" so Matt wants to argue with them and targets me and a few others that haven't disappeared.

Cuckoo - cuckoo.

Who started this thread?  Matt.
Who keeps it going?  Matt.
Who is done for the year on the LPGA Tour?  Michelle Wie.
Who cares?  Matt.  But I don't know why.  She's out of sight and would be out of mind except for the raving lunatic that wants to remind everyone that he wasn't impressed by her many achievements at a young age because he's the 'realist' with a wait-and-see attitude.

Whatever.

I'm a realist too.  Michelle Wie will forever be viewed as a disappointment if she fails to return to the level of play from 2003-06.

Somehow Matt will argue back.  Just watch.

[John Moore II]

I think Wie went wrong when she decided to move up in competition too soon. She should have learned to utterly destroy the competition at the Jr. Level, then work up to the Am Level (even though she did win the Am Publinx), then finally to the Pro level. Or even skip the Jr level. But she needed to learn how to win. Thats how Tiger did it, he has destroyed the competition at every level. Wie should be a great golfer again, but she needs to learn how to win.

[Garland Bayley]

Other John, (the one I thought I was answering the previous post to. )

I hate to see people mention Tiger and learning to win. There is Bobby Jones and there is Tiger. They learned early. Perhaps you can put Jack in their boat. That's part of what distinguishes them (that and all the major wins).

Every winning golfer has to learn to win. Some of the greatest learn quite late. E.g. Ben Hogan. Of course Michelle needs to learn to win like they all did.

Michelle has been challenged by geography early, and fewer chances later given the limited frequency of play compared to others. We hope she will get there like Ben did, and hopefully much sooner.

[George Pazin]

I think Wie went wrong when she decided to move up in competition too soon. She should have learned to utterly destroy the competition at the Jr. Level, then work up to the Am Level (even though she did win the Am Publinx), then finally to the Pro level. Or even skip the Jr level. But she needed to learn how to win. Thats how Tiger did it, he has destroyed the competition at every level. Wie should be a great golfer again, but she needs to learn how to win.

This could certainly be true.

However, history shows there are many paths to success. Hogan didn't become a great golfer till his 30s. Vijay didn't really become Vijay till almost his 40s. Look at Harrington's progression relative to the younger phenoms like Garcia, Rose, Casey, Dougherty, etc.

The same holds for other individual sports. Agassi dominated his age group while Sampras was playing up in age and losing; who had the better career?

Michelle is still a child. I think calling anyone choosing to defend her record - which is very impressive relative to 99.999999% of the golf world - an apologist when she still is in her teens is a bit silly, to say the least. Give her a chance to grow up, give her game a chance to develop, give her a chance to get healthy, before pronouncing some sort of assinine judgment on her career.

[John Moore II]

The same holds for other individual sports. Agassi dominated his age group while Sampras was playing up in age and losing; who had the better career?

Off topic certainly, but I would love to have seen Agassi had he not fallen down with injuries for a few years. Now that would have been interesting

[CHrisB]

Who started this thread?  Matt.
Who keeps it going?  Matt.
Who is done for the year on the LPGA Tour?  Michelle Wie.
Who cares?  Matt.  But I don't know why.  She's out of sight and would be out of mind except for the raving lunatic that wants to remind everyone that he wasn't impressed by her many achievements at a young age because he's the 'realist' with a wait-and-see attitude.

John,
I think that Matt may suffer from the same kind of disgust that causes some people to root against certain sports teams because they think their fans are obnoxious. I'm guilty of that myself on occasion (I won't mention the teams here!).

I do think there is a part of Matt that would like Michelle Wie to succeed and gets frustrated by what he sees as a real possibility that her potential is being squandered, but deep down there may be another part of him that hopes that Michelle Wie never reaches the level of success of which she seems so capable because that will mean that these same obnoxious kool-aid-drinking-genuflecting-Team-Wie-zealot-apologist-fanatics-who-need-to-wake-up-and-smell-the-coffee were indeed right in getting so excited about her as a player.

I'm not that much of a fanatic about her but I do recognize her special talent and especially as a father of a young girl I hope Wie becomes good enough to play with the men which would represent breaking a barrier for women athletes (I can't even think of another sport where a woman is this close to being at least competitive with the top level of men, except for maybe race car driving which isn't as strictly athletic and which I don't care as much about). I just don't see the harm in getting excited and hopeful about a young talent and predicting the possibility of great things for her, which would also be great for the game of golf.

This series of conversations reminds me about the two pug dogs I used to own. One was a big burly male and the other was a runt female. It was funny to watch them together because it seemed like whenever the male got really excited about something (dinner time, someone coming over, going for a walk, etc.), then little one would run over and nip at him and start humping on him to try to assert her dominance and get him to calm down. Sound familiar?

But seeing as Matt and I are both Black-Mesa-kool-aid-drinking-genuflecting-zealot-apologist-fanatics, I can't really judge anything else he says too harshly.

[Garland Bayley]

...
But seeing as Matt and I are both Black-Mesa-kool-aid-drinking-genuflecting-zealot-apologist-fanatics, I can't really judge anything else he says too harshly.

Oh No! Not another Black-Mesa-kool-aid-drinking-genuflecting-zealot-apologist-fanatic! Ran save us please!
 

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