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Matt_Ward

Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #475 on: August 18, 2008, 03:35:24 PM »
Chris:

Enjoyed your response ...

Here's my abbreviated quiz to you ...

What number applies to the following questions on Michelle Wie ?

Wins on LPGA circuit to date ?

Cuts made in Men's events ?

Answer = 0

Will she win? She should given her talent.

But ...

Before the constant onslaught hype campaign of playing with men continues I'd like to demonstrate she should show consistently that she can play with the women. How novel would that be? To beat people of the same gender.

Chris, the "teenage" excuse has run its course. If you want to play with the grown-ups then you'd best act the part.

Michelle has talent -- guess what -- plenty have come before her with such a resume. The issue is earning your keep. It's also about time that the major golf associations (LPGA, PGA Tour, USGA) drop the exemption show because it's a clear slap in the face to the countless others who have had to qualify to get there.

Last point -- you say it's her way to decide. Sure it is. Just like it's my way to comment on what shakes out. I have respect for her talent -- I have lost patience with the "teenage excuse" being paraded out all the time. Team Wie and Michelle may not be one and the same -- but they do operate under the same umbrella.


Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #476 on: August 18, 2008, 03:37:39 PM »
Matt,

I would hope that Michelle (or Team Wie) should be able to use the "teenage excuse" until she turns 20...

Matt_Ward

Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #477 on: August 18, 2008, 03:44:18 PM »
Richard, et al:

I am pulling for Michelle -- many may scoff at that.

But it is true.

I was really fascinated by what Michelle did when she attempted sectonal qualifying for the US Open at Canoe Brook in Summit, NJ a few years back. Michelle was responsible for bringing no less than three (3) live TV film crews and causing the local golf association (MGA) to shut down the course because of too many spectactors.

I don't doubt she can draw crowds but back then she was closer to delivering on that promise than she has been in recent times.

Michelle shuold follow the path Earl outlined for Tiger. Beat the people you are supposed to beat and then move up. Her formula to date has not been positive or compelling. If anything -- it's gone the other way big time.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #478 on: August 18, 2008, 03:48:28 PM »
...She -- excuse me -- Team Wie wanted to play the ultimate free agent card. Pick and choose whenever it suited her. ...
Team Wie wanted to exploit any of the tours for their benefit ...

Objection! Facts not in evidence! This is merely speculation based I highly suspect your own character/personality would choose as a path.

Quote

I am neither advising Michelle nor sayign what works best for her. ...

Chris, I have offered something and not just criticism. But, all of you Michelle lovers need to hold her feet, individually and to Team Wie, accountable for the sideshow that seems to follow her wherever she goes.

In regards to goals the following would work ...

1). Commit to being on the LPGA Tour.

2). Win ANY sanctioned LPGA event.

3). Start to contend again in LPGA major events.

4). Stop the nonsense of playing against the men UNTIL she starts to DOMINATE the LPGA Tour in such a way that victories are as automatic as daily sunshine.

5). Start taking responsibility for her actions and stop hiding behind Team Wie -- including her parents. If you want to be treated like a lady then act like one. The teen years showed Michelle she has talent -- now as a young woman she needs to earn her keep and go beyond the promise and start to deliver.

I get it, you're not advising her, but if she would just do as you say, then every thing would be fine.
 ;D
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

CHrisB

Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #479 on: August 18, 2008, 03:53:31 PM »
Matt,
The teenage excuse is useful for reminding everyone that, despite some recent struggles with performance, injury, and conduct, Michelle is still well-positioned to have a great career (time being on her side), and is still one of the most accomplished golfers for her age ever. It's just a "let's keep some perspective" argument.

But the main reason that I think the teenage excuse is valid is because the LPGA Tour requires its members to be at least 18 years old.

Once Wie is a full-time member of the LPGA Tour, then I think your criticisms will be more valid.

Until then, I just don't think it is reasonable to expect her to achieve any level of dominance against players who get to play every week. That's what was so impressive about her 4 straight top 5's in majors--while the rest of the tour was playing a full schedule, she played in 7 tournaments over an 11-month period including those 4 majors.

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #480 on: August 18, 2008, 03:59:09 PM »
Chris--I would suspect she can take an additional 6 or 7 exemptions on the Futures Tour, not to mention, she could probably easily Monday Qualify for those events. Given her talent, I would think she could earn her LPGA card in 6 events on that tour, if there are 6 more events that is. If she doesn't want to go to Q-School, she should petition the LPGA or Euro LPGA tour to allow her an exemption. For the amount of sponsor and spectator money she could bring in to those events, they would be clowns not to let her play.

I'm not sure... here's the eligibility list for the Futures Tour, read it and see if you can understand whether or not she can play.
http://www.duramedfuturestour.com/Qualifying/2008EligibilityForPlay.pdf

I'm pretty sure that she CANNOT Monday qualify on the LPGA, base on this:

Eligible Participants for LPGA Tour Monday qualifiers are:

LPGA, non-exempt, Tournament Division Members; LPGA Class A or B, Teaching and Club Professional Division members; and two amateurs, with a certified USGA Handicap index of 3.4 or less, are eligible to enter the qualifying round. All amateurs must contact the Tournament Director directly and obtain information to enter. If additional information is required please contact the LPGA Headquarters at (386-274-6200) and request a phone contact for the Tournament Director.

*Note: Professionals who are not LPGA members (including PGA members or apprentices, mini- tour players and/or foreign tour players) are not eligible to enter the qualifying round.


The LPGA is much less inviting to nonmembers than the PGA Tour. They also require the members to play every tournament on a three- or four-year rotation, and they are much stricter about playing on other tours during the LPGA season.

Ken
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #481 on: August 19, 2008, 12:00:11 AM »
I am pulling for Michelle -- many may scoff at that.

...

Michelle shuold follow the path Earl outlined for Tiger. Beat the people you are supposed to beat and then move up. Her formula to date has not been positive or compelling. If anything -- it's gone the other way big time.

I'm sure she appreciates your cleverly concealed support. 

Perhaps Matt should follow the suggestions from many and give the verbal attacks a rest.  You come across as an obsessed loser.  It would be one thing to keep an eye on her results, but to repeatedly insist that Top 5 finishes in Majors and bagging a USGA championship aren't anything is odd.

Not sure why you'd ask what she's done lately.  Even if you didn't own a phone, TV, radio, or newspaper we know you have a computer with internet access.  You can look at her results online.  Lord knows she still commands media attention and merits attention on websites covering golf.  She hasn't played as well as she was a few years ago. 

Jeff Shelman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #482 on: August 19, 2008, 12:56:55 AM »
She is a teenager, that cannot be disputed. But I don't buy that as an excuse.

However, your last three LPGA major winners were 20, 19 and 19 at the time of their victories. If you go back to the beginning of '07, half of LPGA majors were won by someone 20 or under.

There was a time when a case could be made that Wie was the best female planet in her age group (say one year older and one younger). You can't say that any longer. Does she have the potential to the best? Sure.

And while she finished T-12 this past week in Canada, there were two players 20 or younger that finished ahead of her and a total of four players 22 or younger that finished ahead of her.

Wie is young, but this isn't like being 19 on the PGA Tour. The LPGA is filled with players of traditional college age who are really good.


John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #483 on: August 19, 2008, 01:55:13 AM »
There was a time when a case could be made that Wie was the best female planet in her age group (say one year older and one younger). You can't say that any longer.

Exactly.  And when she was 12-16 she was better than any boys her age too.

John Moore II

Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #484 on: August 19, 2008, 02:08:20 AM »
There was a time when a case could be made that Wie was the best female planet in her age group (say one year older and one younger). You can't say that any longer.

Exactly.  And when she was 12-16 she was better than any boys her age too.

And now she's better than far less of those players than she used to be. Morgan Pressel, Paula, and a load of Koreans have surpassed her due to Michelle failing to fully commit to anything. She needs to either quit school or quit trying to play high level golf on the tours for a few years. That way she can fully focus on one thing or the other. I think she can be great again, she just needs to do it HER way, not her dad's way or some other buffoons way.

Glenn Spencer

Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #485 on: August 19, 2008, 06:49:08 AM »
There was a time when a case could be made that Wie was the best female planet in her age group (say one year older and one younger). You can't say that any longer.

Exactly.  And when she was 12-16 she was better than any boys her age too.

And now she's better than far less of those players than she used to be. Morgan Pressel, Paula, and a load of Koreans have surpassed her due to Michelle failing to fully commit to anything. She needs to either quit school or quit trying to play high level golf on the tours for a few years. That way she can fully focus on one thing or the other. I think she can be great again, she just needs to do it HER way, not her dad's way or some other buffoons way.

Are Morgan and Paula really better players or have they had better results over the past 18 months? Why do writers and people think golf is like a batting average?? She is clearly a better player right now, just not getting the results because of what she is doing in her life at the moment and what is happening to her. Tiger went through a swing change in 98 and O'Meara won two majors that year, did you think O'Meara was the better player? John Daly shoots in the 80's with reckless abandon on tour, but it doesn't mean that an amateur is a better player.

If you would like to bet that Pressel or Creamer will win more majors in their career than Wie, let me know, otherwise don't for one minute say they are better players. Say that they have been playing better, huge difference.

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #486 on: August 19, 2008, 07:37:02 AM »
Morgan Pressel better than Wie?  Hardly.  She has exactly ONE LPGA win...playing full time...she has missed 5 cuts this seasons...playing full time...she finishes far back in the pack more often than top 10....playing full time...

My only rap against Wie is she should have focused on the LPGA and playing ful time.
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Matt_Ward

Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #487 on: August 19, 2008, 09:56:32 AM »
John C:

Really?

Obsessed loser?

How bout being defined as a realist because all of you -- yes, John that includes you, have been at the forefront in PROCLAIMING Wie was already the great one BEFORE she actually accomplished the victories you and so many others have preordained she would win.

I mean you must have amnesia with all the gushing that Wie is the female equivalent of Tiger and all the rest. Before we shoot people like myself with such personal invective -- look in the mirror and see the situation for what it is.

John, you, like other narrow-minded Wie groupies, always trumpet the USGA win -- which was five years ago but then have convenient memory loss when you have such poor etiquette situations such as the incident involving her pulling out of tournaments when she is endanger of shooting a high number. Or the injury excuse that can be manipulated into any sort of answer imaginable. Or the constant circus act with men's events that is going absolutely no where. If you want balance from me and others like me then demonstrate a bit more from your side.

I respect the talent Michelle has -- but she has been managed in a very poor way and frankly I am getting tired of her smug entitlement response because of the way so many groups -- including the USGA, LPGA and even the PGA Tour have enabled such behavior. Team Wie wanted to have the ultimate free-lance golf sideshow -- one where they could cherry pick off any event and come and go as they please.

That could only work if the scores and wins would be forthcoming -- they have not to date. Will they in the future? That's unknown to me and guess what to all the Wie groupies.

Michelle needs to dedicate herself to some sort of course of action that can be sustained. The men's sideshow is a carnival act that few, if any, are buying now. She is more the carnival act in that environment than a real competitor. Beat the women convincingly and thoroughly and the rest takes care of itself. With each passing month / year there are other more hungry and more focused younger women -- especially the Korean contingent, that are making even greater strides than she.

If Michelle is torn between being a college student and professional golfer then she needs to sort things out and determine for herself what works best for her. I wish her well. However, Team Wie has made it a point to showcase Michelle in a way that seeks to be everything all it once. It's not working. And, more than anything else, Michelle needs to really determine what she is really set in doing. No doubt Michelle has tremendous talent but past press clipping don't answer the most important question that lies at the heart of any sports situation ...

"What have you done lately?"

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #488 on: August 19, 2008, 09:58:58 AM »

"What have you done lately?"


Matt,

What would satisfy your rabid hunger?

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #489 on: August 19, 2008, 10:09:17 AM »
One thing seems pretty undeniable:  she is playing better of recent.  And that, IMO, should make anyone that is a fan of the LPGA be happy.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Matt_Ward

Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #490 on: August 19, 2008, 10:15:08 AM »
JES II:

First off -- I have no hunger and it's not rabid !

It might be helpful for Michelle to separate herself from her parents -- especially her dad -- in the management of her career. This has happened with other female athletes -- notably on the tennis side but there are golf examples too.

Michelle has plenty of potential - and her marketability can be reignited on a host of fronts but it requires her dedication to some sort of meaningful game plan. This notion of being a student - and then jumping into competitive golf and then back to student and back to competitive golf requires a good bit more focus than she is doing now.

David Leadbetter who has seen Michelle for quite some time has said that Michelle needs to get focused on some sort of game plan that moves her along in her overall development.

I'd like to see Michelle have a press event where she makes a commitment to something concrete.

Personally, I think being a full time player on the LPGA circuit would work best. However, if she really wants to be a college student then she should follow that path. But make a choice.

I think Michelle needs to reassert herself through scores on the course. Focus on getting that first win and see what shakes out from that. But let her take one step at a time before all the groupies wax poetic about being the female Tiger Woods.




JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #491 on: August 19, 2008, 10:30:26 AM »

I'd like to see Michelle have a press event where she makes a commitment to something concrete.



GMAB!

Matt_Ward

Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #492 on: August 19, 2008, 10:32:38 AM »
JES II:

OK smart fellow -- what's your bright ideas beyond criticizing mine ?

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #493 on: August 19, 2008, 11:10:35 AM »
JES II:

OK smart fellow -- what's your bright ideas beyond criticizing mine ?

I haven't criticized any of your bright ideas yet Matt...

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #494 on: August 19, 2008, 11:29:49 AM »
Chuckle.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #495 on: August 19, 2008, 11:32:33 AM »
...
John, you, like other narrow-minded Wie groupies, always trumpet the USGA win -- which was five years ago but then have convenient memory loss when you have such poor etiquette situations such as the incident involving her pulling out of tournaments when she is endanger of shooting a high number. Or the injury excuse that can be manipulated into any sort of answer imaginable. Or the constant circus act with men's events that is going absolutely no where. If you want balance from me and others like me then demonstrate a bit more from your side. ...

Jeez Matt, I have been trying to help you out here so you won't give the appearances of being an obsessed loser. But, with your continued speculation on the WD stated as if it were gospel; and your "manipulated into any sort of answer imaginable", and "circus act" you keep demonstrating characteristics of an obsessed loser. I just guess I can't help you. Ignorant people can be educated, and you certainly are resisting the education.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Matt_Ward

Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #496 on: August 19, 2008, 11:40:39 AM »
Garland, et al:

Name calling is the last bastion of those predisposed to never offering their game plans - except to sling personal invective at others.

The Wie "genuflect" crowd that was extolling her virtues before the amount of victories was at hand. Michelle has great talent but potential is nothing more than a possibility. Instead of owning up to the reality that they may have jump-started "greatness" before it was at hand -- it's easier and lower to trash those who took a more balanced perspective from the get-go.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #497 on: August 19, 2008, 11:45:09 AM »
Matt,

"manipulated into any sort of answer imaginable" and "circus act" are not indicative of a "balanced perspective".

"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #498 on: August 19, 2008, 11:47:47 AM »
Matt, you aren't helping dispel the notion that you are an obsessed loser.  Look at the rant above.

Your comments are impossible to reply to because they are broad in nature and clump everyone that has ever said anything positive about an 11-year-old girl into the same viewpoint.

A future US Open champ on the Curtis Cup team loses to Wie when she was a pre-teen and tells her friends, "she's real good! It's not like you think."  Does that mean SHE condones "how Wie has been handled"?

Someone points out she has more Top 5s in Majors than just about anyone else.  Does that mean HE anointed her the best ever and predicted as many wins as Woods?

No, Matt.  It doesn't.

And you can't figure that out.

Rant on.

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #499 on: August 19, 2008, 11:54:18 AM »
Michelle has great talent but potential is nothing more than a possibility.

Again Matt, "potential" implies someone does more later.  Like Aree Wongluekiet, Michelle Wie had a Top 10 in the Dinah at age 13.  Did Aree have "potential"?  Turns out she never did as well again.  Pardon my ignorance, but does she even play golf anymore?  I'm guessing she's 21 now.  Maybe she's still out there but maybe she's washed up.

What if Michelle Wie never plays well again?  It doesn't look like that will be the case.  But it could be.  If so, it seems pretty obvious to say she never achieved the success that seemed certain.  Invoking the word "potential" muddies the waters because it implies the achievements weren't significant.  Does Korda have "potential"?  I dunno, Matt.  Seems to me a finish around 20th is pretty impressive now.

I said the same thing about Amare as a rookie.  Save me the "potential" talk, he was doing it now.  Sure enough, years later he's really no better than he was as a rook.  Nor does he need to be.

Wie may never be better than she was and she can still win multiple Majors.

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