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John_Conley

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Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #325 on: July 21, 2008, 11:01:13 AM »
Remember...she was disqualified the minute she left the scoring tent. The fact that she later came back and signed it is irrelevant.

No she wasn't.  She was disqualified the next day.

Question for any one of what Ralston aptly called the "regulation Charlies" - can I leave "the box" and then step back in to attest someone else's card?  I assume they can't be DQ'd for my gaffe, but am I penalized?

I've played a lot of tournament golf and this stuff never comes up.  Nobody has ever worries this much about the geography of where I stand.  Or sit.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #326 on: July 21, 2008, 11:02:06 AM »
Kalen, there are sins of omission in the rules of golf.  Forget to mark the location of your ball when you lift it as Bernhard Langer did a couple of years ago and you get a penalty.  Should we be nice and say, "Gee Bernie we know you meant to mark the position so just put it back?"

I have a friend who went brain dead and picked up his ball without holing out in a tournament.  He teed off on the next hole.  A sin of commission or omission?  Do we give him a break because he never misses 2 inch putts?

JVB,

I agree with everything in your post.

But I would ask this.  What was the penalty for boneheaded forgetful move like this?  A penalty stroke or two demerit or DQ?

I can stipulate MW made a boneheaded forgetful move as it pertains to the arbitrary line for the scorers tent.  But can you honestly tell me that it deserves a DQ?

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #327 on: July 21, 2008, 11:04:42 AM »
The rules of golf require the player to sign a scorecard. The rules of golf do not require walking scorekeepers, galleries, and a television audience

Sarge, an organization can choose whether or not they want to follow the Rules of Golf.  This is Dave's point about O'Neill's pebble yesterday.  "Kenny, I've got a rock in front of my ball."  The Rules of Golf don't allow that.  The bunker is a hazard.

NASCAR could adopt signed scorecards attesting laps.  Instead, they keep watching to figure out what happens.  The PGA Tour certainly has enough people following what is going on to eschew the cards if they want to, at least on the weekend.

And Kalen, JVB is hard-wired not to think about things like that.  Probably a good trait for a rules official, but I wouldn't look for him to be at the fore of driving a rules change.

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #328 on: July 21, 2008, 11:09:40 AM »
This is BS.

Why did the "volunteer" run after Michelle? She was already DQ'd. If the "volunteer" did not know the rule, what the FU$% is that person doing in the scoring tent? Where FU$% is the scoring official? Why didn't the scoring official train the people work there to make sure not to let anyone leave unless you have a signed card?

There is enough crazyness happening in a pro tournament for stuff like this to happen all the time. This is not the first time this has happened. Players get DQ'd a couple of times a year (at least, just in pro tourneys) every YEAR!!!

And why DID they let her play? Because they just wanted to suck as much out of her before booting her out. GIVE ME FREAKIN break on "maybe they didn't disturb the play", they have done that before.

It is so sad to see people here defending LPGA taking advantage of a young girl... pathetic.

If this sort of thing happened in ANY other major sport, the rule would be changed tomorrow. The fact that there is any resistance AT ALL about correcting this ridiculous rule just shows you why this game will never grow.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2008, 11:17:45 AM by Richard Choi »

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #329 on: July 21, 2008, 11:16:47 AM »
The rules of golf require the player to sign a scorecard. The rules of golf do not require walking scorekeepers, galleries, and a television audience

Why doesn't the rule of golf require the tournament organizers to collect the scores? Why doesn't it put the responsibility of scoring on both players and the organizers?

It would not take ANYMORE resource to have the scoring official sit down with the players at the end of the round, go over the entire round, correctly copy down the scores from both player, add the score up, have the players review it and enter the score officially when everyone is satisfied.

WHY CAN'T the rule of golf do this SIMPLE thing?

Bringing up "lack of resources" is just a lazy excuse. You people just like to see people like Michelle get their comeuppance every once in awhile and you endorse stupid rules like this so that you can set the trap.

Pathetic...

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #330 on: July 21, 2008, 11:33:53 AM »
...
How many decent, honest and downright nice people get a ticket in the mail stating that their car went through a redlight and when appearing before the judge say something like, "Your honor, I KNOW the light was YELLOW when I enterered the intersection plus I didn't think the person behind me could stop in time. What was I to do?"
...

Sorry Philip, but your definition of "decent, honest and downright nice people" seems to be different than mine. " IMO decent, honest and downright nice people don't purposely run red lights and take a chance on killing someone. How's that for OT? ;)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #331 on: July 21, 2008, 12:21:05 PM »
It would not take ANYMORE resource to have the scoring official sit down with the players at the end of the round, go over the entire round, correctly copy down the scores from both player, add the score up, have the players review it and enter the score officially when everyone is satisfied.

I am 100% confident Michelle Wie had the opportunity to do just that. She did not avail herself of that opportunity and got herself in this mess.
"We finally beat Medicare. "

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #332 on: July 21, 2008, 12:26:09 PM »
The rules of golf require the player to sign a scorecard. The rules of golf do not require walking scorekeepers, galleries, and a television audience

Sarge, an organization can choose whether or not they want to follow the Rules of Golf.  This is Dave's point about O'Neill's pebble yesterday.  "Kenny, I've got a rock in front of my ball."  The Rules of Golf don't allow that.  The bunker is a hazard.


I am unfamiliar with a pebble incident, but I disagree that an organization like the LPGA can choose not to follow the Rules of Golf in their sanctioned competitions. While that may be theoretically possible, it is antithetical to the very essence of the organization. Their bylaws require them to conduct competitions under the rules of golf andf the members demand it. They play golf according to the rules and that is what makes them worth watching
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #333 on: July 21, 2008, 12:44:31 PM »
I'm curious...

Is Appendix I even considered apart of the Rules of Golf? I just took a look in there and found an awful lot of local rule implementations that allow the local committee to change some of the most basic rules.

I bring this up in context to many who have stated that a local rules group for a tourney aren't allowed to change the rules of the game, yet Appendix I is full of examples where they can do exactly just that...up to and including the stone in the bunker incident that happened over the weekend.

In light of all the conversation in this thread I'm having a really hard time seeing when it is and isn't OK to modify/change/lay down and when it isn't.  All this stuff seems very arbitrary.  There is a huge disconnect between those who say rules are static, can't be changed, yet in Appendix I it seems to be in direct contradiction to this. Its seems its very clear that this type of stuff is very much allowed.

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #334 on: July 21, 2008, 12:46:23 PM »
John, they don't.  There are many addendums.  The "no room key" clause.  Pick, clean, and cheat.  I'm sure someone else can cite others.  Watch a replay of McNeill in the bunker on 18 yesterday and you'll see him tell Duke he's taking a rock out.  All okay.  And clearly not in the Rules of Golf.

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #335 on: July 21, 2008, 12:54:01 PM »
I started out in agreement with those who said, "Rules are rules -- no signature before leaving the tent means DQ." Painful, but simple, clear, and elegant. Like most executions.

But in reading every post on this issue, I found myself wondering why a signature is necessary. JVB says, "How do we know the score is accurate if the card isn't signed? How do we know the player even looked it over?" The simple answer is, you don't. How do you know the player looked it over and the score is accurate if the card is signed? You don't. Roberto DeVincenzo signed his card at the 1968 Masters, and it was wrong. He wasn't DQ'd -- he simply had to accept the higher score he signed for. (though had he signed for a lower score than he actually shot, he would have rightly been disqualified.)

My proposal would simplify this part of the process: Don't require players to sign their card. When the round is over, keep the same procedure you have now, with players reporting to the scorer's table. Once the card is handed to the official scorer, that is the player's statement that he or she has looked at the scores and considers them correct. Any mistakes thereafter would be dealt with the way they are now. Your act of handing the card to the scorer is your signature.

No one would ever be DQd again for this particular offense -- which, I've concluded, is too trivial for a death penalty.

Keep in mind, I'm proposing a rule change, not lenience for Michelle Wie. I'm still a "regulation Charlie" when it comes to enforcing whatever is on the books.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #336 on: July 21, 2008, 12:56:27 PM »
John,

The appendix to the Rules of Golf clearly allows for this.

So if something in the Appendix clearly is allowed to overrule something found in the rules, therefore the Appendix to the golf rules must also be on at least the same footing as the actual rules themselves.

But why stop at stones in hazards because they are deemed unsafe or otherwise dangerous.

A tree can be very hazardous in a hazard as well.  Does this mean I get relief from this?
Or how about some long wispy grass in a hazard?  It could turn my club face over and sprain my wrist?
Wet sand could also be hazardous no?  I could hurt my wrist trying to hit off an unforgiving surface.

Ultimately though, in the case of a rock in the bunker, if its really that bad, why not just take an unplayable lie?  Why should there be any expectation that one should be able to play from a bunker?  It is after all a hazard right, thereby meaning it could actually be hazardous?  Don't we have to even take unplayable lies in the fairway?  Like if a ball is up against a tree or something?


Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #337 on: July 21, 2008, 01:01:50 PM »
Shiv and Rick,

Exactly what I said back on page 4 or somewhere about then.  Why isn't a scorecard handed over to the committee not good enough?

There is plenty of evidence its thier card:

1)  They came to the scorers tent.
2)  They sat in front of the official.
3)  They likely had some chit-chat including here is my card.
4)  They hand over said card with thier scribbles on it.


John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #338 on: July 21, 2008, 01:05:30 PM »
Ultimately though, in the case of a rock in the bunker, if its really that bad, why not just take an unplayable lie? 

Yeah, I'm sure Ken Duke was thinking of spending a couple hundred thou to get the rock out of the way.


Cabell Ackerly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #339 on: July 21, 2008, 01:07:39 PM »
I agree that the punishment is pretty severe, but for all those who are chastising the LPGA for letting her finish the next round, let's be open minded, and consider that Michelle should have never started the round (on her own accord).

To assume that someone in the Wie camp didn't know this had happened before she started her next round, AND didn't know the penalty was automatic DQ is pretty naive. I'll give Michelle the benefit of the doubt (she probably really didn't know), but someone in her camp surely did.

Bottom line: "Team Wie" should have called this on themselves before the LPGA had to.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2008, 01:17:26 PM by Cabell Ackerly »

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #340 on: July 21, 2008, 01:11:59 PM »
Ultimately though, in the case of a rock in the bunker, if its really that bad, why not just take an unplayable lie? 

Yeah, I'm sure Ken Duke was thinking of spending a couple hundred thou to get the rock out of the way.



John,

Not sure if your being sarcastic here or what, but yes this is really the point.  A conditional type rule being in place so this guy isn't hurt in the pocketbook.  Of course he wanted a favorable ruling and is going to plead his case to get that rock removed without penalty because it meant so much to him financially.  And he got it....

How in the world this kind of thing can jive with those who say MW should have been DQ'd for doing something far less sinister and selfish in my book is beyond all logic reasoning.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #341 on: July 21, 2008, 02:01:58 PM »
11 pages and a ton of suggested tweaks, but no one - even the extremely level headed Rick Shefchik - has convinced me that the rule needs to be changed or why his or her way works better.

Of course, I tire quickly of everyone clamoring for a rule change every time someone is DQ'd. And I appreciate the beauty of setting up the rules so that they can apply to a little tiny club event as well as a major.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #342 on: July 21, 2008, 02:06:28 PM »
11 pages and a ton of suggested tweaks, but no one - even the extremely level headed Rick Shefchik - has convinced me that the rule needs to be changed or why his or her way works better.

Of course, I tire quickly of everyone clamoring for a rule change every time someone is DQ'd. And I appreciate the beauty of setting up the rules so that they can apply to a little tiny club event as well as a major.


Well said, George. An unfortunate sequence of events does not mean that the rule needs to be changed. I doubt MW will allow this to happen again. And it will serve as reminder to others as well.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Phil Benedict

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #343 on: July 21, 2008, 02:08:49 PM »
11 pages and a ton of suggested tweaks, but no one - even the extremely level headed Rick Shefchik - has convinced me that the rule needs to be changed or why his or her way works better.

Of course, I tire quickly of everyone clamoring for a rule change every time someone is DQ'd. And I appreciate the beauty of setting up the rules so that they can apply to a little tiny club event as well as a major.

Isn't "extremely level headed" an oxymoron?  Of something like that.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #344 on: July 21, 2008, 02:15:54 PM »
11 pages and a ton of suggested tweaks, but no one - even the extremely level headed Rick Shefchik - has convinced me that the rule needs to be changed or why his or her way works better.

Of course, I tire quickly of everyone clamoring for a rule change every time someone is DQ'd. And I appreciate the beauty of setting up the rules so that they can apply to a little tiny club event as well as a major.

George, fair enough,

But on the flip side, I've yet to hear one logical or "level-headed" reason as to why a violation of this rule earns a DQ?  Especially in light of much more devious and otherwise nasty rule violations only getting you two strokes at worst.

And I'm still waiting for someone who can tell me with a straight face that they actually beleive a violation of this rule is deserving of a DQ....not just cause the rules say so.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2008, 02:19:52 PM by Kalen Braley »

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #345 on: July 21, 2008, 02:23:41 PM »
Kalen,

The rule was put in place to deter cheating. Cheating is deserving of a DQ. I have a straight face.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #346 on: July 21, 2008, 02:25:58 PM »
Kalen,

The rule was put in place to deter cheating. Cheating is deserving of a DQ. I have a striaght face.


Garland,

If you are serious here, which I suspect you aren't, but I'll amuse you....

How does one cheat by walking out of the tent and coming back in?  The scores are on the card and they are in the system. What could one possibly due to cheat at this point?

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #347 on: July 21, 2008, 02:29:13 PM »
Kalen -

Like situations shall be treated alike (or however that exact phrase goes).

Much like your desire for greater corporate oversight :), you seek to clutter up the rules book with a million more special circumstances. I would've thought a software engineer would see beauty in simplicity.

Isn't "extremely level headed" an oxymoron?  Of something like that.

Merely a redundancy, but a deserved one for my friend Rick (whose new book is now available at Amazon, btw!).
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #348 on: July 21, 2008, 02:32:20 PM »
Kalen -

Like situations shall be treated alike (or however that exact phrase goes).

Much like your desire for greater corporate oversight :), you seek to clutter up the rules book with a million more special circumstances. I would've thought a software engineer would see beauty in simplicity.

Isn't "extremely level headed" an oxymoron?  Of something like that.

Merely a redundancy, but a deserved one for my friend Rick (whose new book is now available at Amazon, btw!).

George,

Simplicity is good, I would agree 100%, but Logic and good reasonsing are just as important.  No matter how simple a piece of code is, its worthless if it doesn't serve the purpose in mind.

I wish to add no new rules, just to amend the current one.  Given em a two stroke penalty if they violate the tent rule, but don't DQ em.  Thats simplicity at is finest!!  ;D



John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #349 on: July 21, 2008, 02:38:23 PM »
I'm going to traffic court soon.  My toll transponder is supposed to work state-wide but it obviously didn't in this instance.  The toll was $1.50 or $1.25, the citation for failing to pay the toll is more than 100 times that.

There was no infraction, or at least no intention of one.  I have money on account and they deduct it when I pass a plaza.  That's how it is supposed to work.  But when it doesn't work....

No amount of calling has rectified this.  They say I need to pay $180 or whatever OR show up for my court date.  Rules are fine.  When those that enforce the rules also make them easy to follow that's finer.

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