[Jim Nugent]

Those of you who think the rule is just:

1.  Should DiVicenzo have gotten credit for his actual score at Augusta, or the score he signed for?

2.  Should Pung have been DQ'd in the 1957 U.S. Women's Open?   

[Craig Sweet]

The whole DQ for failing to sign is harsh...especially when you do sign, but it was outside the "boundaries"...on the official LPGA site they say she was in violation of "Section 3" and this is what triggered the DQ....the LPGA does not actually note what Section 3 says but they imply that is has something to do with the scorers boundary lines...

[Brent Hutto]

Yeah, and if the rule were that you have to sign the card by midnight eventually someone would forget until 6AM the next morning and you guys would be crying about how unfair the Rules are.

It doesn't matter whether the rule is inside the tent, inside the line, within a certain amount of time or whatever. What matters is there is one specific deadline that is always the same so that everyone knows it. Whenever there's a bright line Rule there will always be the situation where someone steps just thiiiiiis far over the line and is penalized.

For some reason whenever that happens in golf there's a chorus of idiotic comments about the unfairness of having a "arbitrary" rule and a bunch of special pleading that this or that player shouldn't suffer the consequences. There is no policy for defining when and how a players must attest his/her score that will not eventually be accidentally violated. Any rule will eventually cost someone, that doesn't mean there shouldn't be rules.

[MargaretC]

The whole DQ for failing to sign is harsh...especially when you do sign, but it was outside the "boundaries"...on the official LPGA site they say she was in violation of "Section 3" and this is what triggered the DQ....the LPGA does not actually note what Section 3 says but they imply that is has something to do with the scorers boundary lines...

Craig:

No question, DQ is capital punishment.  Even more reason why it's stupid for a professional golfer to "forget."  If there are rules that some should be damn sure to remember, you'd think it would be those for which the penalty is DQ. 

The "something" is whatever is defined as the scorers area.

PS:  I think I just realized a possible origin for the expression, You give them an inch and they will take a mile.     

[rjsimper]

I am curious - of the people that have a big issue with the fact that Michelle Wie was DQd...how many of you have played serious competitive golf?  I don't mean the club championship, high school golf team, interclub Ryder-cup style matches, or local junior circuits, I mean AJGA, College golf, or major amateur or professional competitions?

My suspicion is that anyone who has a lot of experience in true competitive tournament golf is more likely to have the position of "How hard is it to know the rule and follow it?" sort of like MargaretC has noted with her kids.

I confess that the reason I am so much in that camp is my experience in tournament golf (admittedly 4 years of college and a few major regional junior amateur qualifiers golf counts, but it's thinner than many others on this site) and wonder how many have been in a similar position to this (where rules are given and the penalty for disobedience is death) yet still think an exception should be made by the LPGA (for MW or for any other player)

[John_Cullum]

A player only has to do 3 things in a stroke play competition:

1. Show up on time
2. Play the round according to the rules.
3. Return a proper scorecard.

At a professional competition, there is a staff of officials to help a player with 2 of those 3 things, but the player has to avail himself of the assistance.

Michelle Wie need to develop a post round routine that will keep her from doing this again

[John_Conley]

I am curious - of the people that have a big issue with the fact that Michelle Wie was DQd...how many of you have played serious competitive golf?  I don't mean the club championship, high school golf team, interclub Ryder-cup style matches, or local junior circuits, I mean AJGA, College golf, or major amateur or professional competitions?

My suspicion is that anyone who has a lot of experience in true competitive tournament golf is more likely to have the position of "How hard is it to know the rule and follow it?" sort of like MargaretC has noted with her kids.

I confess that the reason I am so much in that camp is my experience in tournament golf (admittedly 4 years of college and a few major regional junior amateur qualifiers golf counts, but it's thinner than many others on this site) and wonder how many have been in a similar position to this (where rules are given and the penalty for disobedience is death) yet still think an exception should be made by the LPGA (for MW or for any other player)

Ryan, I've played in a State Amateur after medalling at my qualifying site.  I've played in local events a lot.  Once I was in the lead group of one and had TV cameras following to get footage for the evening news.  Is that significant enough?  I don't think it matters.  You've missed the point of my comments, which have been echoed by others.  It doesn't matter what level golf someone played.

The rule is that you need to sign your card and return it, and once you do that it is final.  An LPGA addendum is that you need to do this within a box in front of the scorers table.  If I'm following all this, sometimes there is a line, sometimes there is an imaginary one.

The hard part, and it obviously is hard or she wouldn't have had this problem, is that it really is different all the time.  In the last few years Wie has played in USGA qualifiers, the men's APL, the Women's Open, several LET events, some LPGA things, the PGA Tour, European Tour, Nationwide Tour, and on and on and on.

If the LPGA wanted to make it easy on non-members (which I believe Wie is), they'd set up an easy policy.  They don't, so they don't.

Ever see the Jamie Kennedy Experiment episode where the started the gameshow but didn't explain the rules to the mark?  That was funny.

This isn't.

[JESII]

Ryan Farrow,

Your post 265 is the most asinine I have read on here, and will therefore be the easiest terms to agree with.



John Conley,

Every single one of those organizations you mention has the same rule as the LPGA Tour...sign the card and turn it in, and once you have left the scoring area it is final. Why would she hand it over to the score keeper and leave? You guys are suggesting she would have come back and signed it after her autograph session if she were left completely to her own devices.




I'll repeat what I asked Kalen last night...WHY DID SHE GO INTO THE SCORING TENT IN THE FIRST PLACE?

[Will MacEwen]

Shivas - I concur with much of what you say.  By accepting and posting her signed card, and letting her play on, it is akin to the committee ruling that she had complied with the requirements.  The ruling may be wrong, but the player may rely on it.

[JESII]

If a player signs for a 4 and we all know she made a 5, do we let her off the hook because a swarm of bees came through the scoring tent?

[John_Conley]

John Conley,

Every single one of those organizations you mention has the same rule as the LPGA Tour...sign the card and turn it in, and once you have left the scoring area it is final.

They do?  News to me.  Which ones have the actual white line and which have the imaginary line?  They are in complete agreement on what constitutes the scoring area?  Please provide their definitions.

Credit Wie for this: average golfers everywhere have learned more from her travails than any other female golfer.  Remember the "through line" brouhaha?  I had been playing a very long time and never knew of the through line's sacred place in professional golf.

Paradoxically, golf once came so easy to Michelle Wie and now everything seems infinitely harder for her.

Too bad.  It would have been something else to follow today.  Norman at the Open, Perry at the whatever, and Wie at the Rail.  This is the old Rail, right?

[John_Conley]

If a player signs for a 4 and we all know she made a 5, do we let her off the hook because a swarm of bees came through the scoring tent?

No, why?

That player is DQ'd.  Would make more sense to give them the 5, plus a penalty, if you ask me.  But it isn't that way, so they are DQ'd.

[JESII]

It's usually the table you sit at to sign, sometimes it's the trailer you are in, and other times it is defined as the immediate vicinity of the scoring table...regardless, the rule that is static across all organized tournament golf is that once you leave the defined scoring area it's over...

[John_Conley]

It's usually the table you sit at to sign, sometimes it's the trailer you are in, and other times it is defined as the immediate vicinity of the scoring table...regardless, the rule that is static across all organized tournament golf is that once you leave the defined scoring area it's over...

Yes, I think everyone understands that the rule is static.  But the definition of scoring area isn't, which is why the decision to sack Wie (or anyone else) for penning a few autographs before getting to her card is silly.  By your strict interpretation, since you care not about intent, it is not acceptable for Yani Tseng to review her card, hand it to a gentleman in the scoring area, and let go briefly before taking it back when the guy says, "you haven't signed it yet!"  Since that can (and does) happen, there's room for interpretation.  As with all rules.  I can see this happen on TV and call the booth.  If it is before the trophy ceremony the player gets DQ'd.  If it is the next day they'd probably say, "too late.  Scores are final.  We may have made a mistake."

Remember the guy, now deceased I believe, that played the final round at Disney and may have tied for low 72 holes even though the Committee planned on disqualifying him?  Harry Taylor or something like that.  Quit acting like golf rules are simple and fair.  They aren't always.

[Brent Hutto]

There are many cases where the Rules are neither simple nor fair. Signing for your score is not one of those cases. It is simplicity incarnate. Sit your ass down with the scorer. Check your scorecard. Sign the card and had it to the scorer before getting out of the chair and leaving the scorer. You do it all in one spot, in two minutes and you do it exactly the same every frickin' time in your life.

[John_Conley]

Sit your ass down with the scorer. Check your scorecard. Sign the card and had it to the scorer before getting out of the chair and leaving the scorer. You do it all in one spot, in two minutes and you do it exactly the same every frickin' time in your life.

Yet she didn't, so there you go.

[Bob_Huntley]

Shouldn't the ruling bodies ban the wives, lovers, creditors and children running onto the green as the winner raises his arms in triumph. The silly sod still might not win if he screws up with the card signing protocol. Mark my words, it will happen again.

Bob

[JESII]

Sit your ass down with the scorer. Check your scorecard. Sign the card and had it to the scorer before getting out of the chair and leaving the scorer. You do it all in one spot, in two minutes and you do it exactly the same every frickin' time in your life.

Yet she didn't, so there you go.

And your implication is that something more...gray...will make it easier to define next time?

[John_Conley]

I just watched  a player in Milwaukee (some no-name in a yellow shirt playing with Ken Duke) remove a pebble from a bunker on the 18th hole under some made-up rule!!

I saw that and said the same thing!  George McNeill, who is a pretty good story.  He was working in the shop of a course near Ft. Myers and decided to give golf another shot.  Won Q-School and is sticking out there. 

[tlavin]

Can you believe that crap?

I wanted to watch the drama of Wie trying to win her first tournament to shut up Matt Ward  , and instead I get some dude I've never seen before picking pebbles out of a bunker at a tour event?

What the hell is going on in the world?

And the sad thing is that on the chick tour, Wie would have won in a cakewalk today because all of the leaders are apparently gagging.  70 would have won this thing.  Instead, this little metrosexual-looking person in the orange shirt who looks more like Arie's assistant from Entourage than a female golfer is going to win....

Great post.

I'm among the pack that thinks that Wie is in the process of squandering Tigress talent, but I was heartened to see that she was playing well.  Had she won the tournament, the people of Springfield would have built a fricking statue for her.    As it is, they'll probably put a post-it note on her shirt to remind her to sign the damn card next time.  I'm watching the finish right now and I guarantee you that less than one-one hundreth of one percent of us could distinguish Tseng, Oh and Choi (the three leaders) in a line up.  This is the quandry of the LPGA tour.  The Korean women are great players, but they're hard to rally around.  Call it racism if you will, but golf fans don't warm up to most of these players.

[Will MacEwen]

Shouldn't the ruling bodies ban the wives, lovers, creditors and children running onto the green as the winner raises his arms in triumph. The silly sod still might not win if he screws up with the card signing protocol. Mark my words, it will happen again.

Bob

I have often thought that in some of those hectic celebrations - like Mickelson in 2004 at Augusta - the hoopla is enough to mess up the whole scorecard deal.   How do you uncork a decade or so of frustration and then sit down and triple check 18 tiny boxes with a clear mind? 

[MargaretC]

Shouldn't the ruling bodies ban the wives, lovers, creditors and children running onto the green as the winner raises his arms in triumph. The silly sod still might not win if he screws up with the card signing protocol. Mark my words, it will happen again.

Bob

I have often thought that in some of those hectic celebrations - like Mickelson in 2004 at Augusta - the hoopla is enough to mess up the whole scorecard deal.   How do you uncork a decade or so of frustration and then sit down and triple check 18 tiny boxes with a clear mind? 

Will:

Not a chore for the professional who respects the game and the rules (and wants to get paid).  Although these issues pathetically, do come-up from time to time, the vast majority of professionals appear to be able to count 18 tiny boxes just fine.  Not rocket science.

I'm not excusing the manner in which the LPGA handled it, but that doesn't change Michelle's responsibility.

PS: I apologize if your response was tongue in cheek, but this has been so much ado about nothing, I just had to respond. 

[Will MacEwen]

Shouldn't the ruling bodies ban the wives, lovers, creditors and children running onto the green as the winner raises his arms in triumph. The silly sod still might not win if he screws up with the card signing protocol. Mark my words, it will happen again.

Bob

I have often thought that in some of those hectic celebrations - like Mickelson in 2004 at Augusta - the hoopla is enough to mess up the whole scorecard deal.   How do you uncork a decade or so of frustration and then sit down and triple check 18 tiny boxes with a clear mind? 

Will:

Not a chore for the professional who respects the game and the rules (and wants to get paid).  Although these issues pathetically, do come-up from time to time, the vast majority of professionals appear to be able to count 18 tiny boxes just fine.  Not rocket science.

I'm not excusing the manner in which the LPGA handled it, but that doesn't change Michelle's responsibility.

PS: I apologize if your response was tongue in cheek, but this has been so much ado about nothing, I just had to respond. 

I don't think it is a chore, I just think it would be tough to pull off with all the pandemonium.  Obviously they find a way, but it wouldn't be shocking to screw it up in those circumstances.  I'm not suggesting they shouldn't have to do it - just that it must be hard to focus on such a mundane task.  If you are ever going to screw it up, that seems like the time.  I suspect the caddy has to revive their senses a little.

[Dan_Callahan]

The one in the yellow looks like she got the world's one-and-only 1700 on the SATs

I don't mean to sound like a smart ass, but there's lots of 1700s on the SATs these days. The best possible score is now 2400 (they added a writing component).

[JohnV]

John Conley,

Every single one of those organizations you mention has the same rule as the LPGA Tour...sign the card and turn it in, and once you have left the scoring area it is final.

They do?  News to me.  Which ones have the actual white line and which have the imaginary line?  They are in complete agreement on what constitutes the scoring area?  Please provide their definitions.

Credit Wie for this: average golfers everywhere have learned more from her travails than any other female golfer.  Remember the "through line" brouhaha?  I had been playing a very long time and never knew of the through line's sacred place in professional golf.

Paradoxically, golf once came so easy to Michelle Wie and now everything seems infinitely harder for her.

Too bad.  It would have been something else to follow today.  Norman at the Open, Perry at the whatever, and Wie at the Rail.  This is the old Rail, right?

John, The LPGA does not have an imaginary line.  They have a tent, a trailer, a room and sometimes they might paint a line on the ground around the tent.  If you leave the tent, trailer or room you have left the scoring area.  This what their rule says.

All tours define some kind of scoring area.  At the ATT, there was a trailer or tent by the 9th and 18th greens of every one of the three courses used.  Normally there is a PGA Tour employee in there.  This year, one of those people broke his leg the week before so the NCGA supplied one of our Rules staff to man the trailer for them.

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