[J_ Crisham]

Silly question but if Shotlink can measure all the crap it does why do the players have to even keep score?  Jack

[Richard Choi]

Tim, that is just punishing the players (especially juniors) for poor organization.

Why can't you just have the players keep the scores and at the end of the round have the group sit with the scorer and go over the entire round hole by hole with everyone in the group sitting together so that you don't allow for any silly mistakes in writing down the score?

Why can't you have the scorer add the scores together so that you don't DQ somebody for not carrying the 1 when doing additions (or DQ by stepping out of the freaking room)?

And it is ABSURD to say that these scoring rules have to be same for junior competitions and PGA tour events! WHY??? You have hundreds if not thousands of voluteers at these events. You have plenty of manpower to check, double check and triple check everything.

Golf as the game suffers when stuff like this happens.

[Kalen Braley]

Tim,

Agreed with lower status tournaments where there aren't signboys, electronic scoreboards, and automatic updates.  In cases like this turning in and signing a card is very useful and serves a good purpose.

In the case of the big money tours, if a player turns in a card and it matches what the official scorers have, why is that not good enough?  They sat at the same table, she told them it was her card, she handed it to them, they all agreed.  Don't think there is much confusion there at this point.  They looked at it and sure enough it matched whats on thier scoring sheet. So a DQ because she doesn't sign it, and takes a step out of the tent?

After so many checks and balances....a DQ cause she was thinking about the chicken enchilidas she was about to rip into for dinner?  A DQ with so much money on the line?  A DQ because Gandalf the Grey drew a line in the sand.

This breaks pretty much every notion of spirit of the game that I ever felt about golf.  She returned to sign the card, she didn't leave without doing this, she got the job done, and she did the right thing.  Yet there is a magical vortex on the outside of the thent where she is transformed into another person, and therefore invalidating what she did on the last 5 hours on the course?

And does a DQ really fit the crime here??  Seriously, does it really fit the crime?  A player hits a ball out of frustration while its still moving because it won't stay on a green, say at Pinehurst, and the guy breaks the spirit of the rules of golf in quite possibily the worst way, and all he gets is a two stroke penalty?  Yet in a different case the round is over, you stand up and put your big toe over a line in the sand and your DQ'd?

I still say what the hell is that?

[JohnV]

Silly question but if Shotlink can measure all the crap it does why do the players have to even keep score?  Jack

Shotlink misses shots and penalty strokes.  It is only good if they can actually see the ball and find out everything that happens.

[Doug Ralston]

This crystalizes a true problem with the 'Rules of Golf'. It is the same thing that is most often lacking in USA Courts. Too much 'rule reading' and no judgement.

Rules in any social setting are for the purpose of promoting positive human interaction. We pass 'laws', the civil version of rules, and judges sit to determine if they have been broken. GOOD judging then allows the judge to determine the proper way to enforce said rule/law. The advent of 'mandatory' sentencing has often taken that power from judges, forcing them to mindlessly impose improper remedies for the unique circumstances which they are called to mediate. Same thing with golf.

An official should clearly have been able to define a more reasonable 'remedy' for this violation of rules. Perhaps they could require that Wie stay in the tent the next day and sign autographs, talk to fans, and generally promote her sport a while. How was her 'rule breaking' so egregious that such drastic penalties be applied? So JUDGEMENT needs to be allowed here. Mindless application of 'death penalties' for crimes without even a victim is absolutely out of proportion and destructive to the game.

Rules certainly are rules, but human interaction is only served by good, imaginative application of them.

This travesty in the name of 'rules' sickens me.

Doug

[JohnV]

JVB,

The techonology is there with computers and such...but the data is only as good as is inputted.  With the size of the purses these days on the professional tours, would think it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to hire someone to take on a task like this. In the end though, I was obviously being sarcastic with Jesse. 

However, I'm not seeing any logical reason as to why MW gets a DQ in this case?  You have tons of tournament experience, perhaps you have some insight on why a rule like this exists in the 1st place and more so why it should deserve a DQ if broken.

How many people do you hire?  There are a lot of groups on the course.

Besides, that only works for the PGA Tour, LPGA Tour and a few others.  For everyone else, you still have to sign the card.  Bifurcation yet again.

[PThomas]

she's got nobody to blame but herself...everyone else in the tournament seems to have complied, yes??

[Kalen Braley]

It just occured to me as to why this is really is so bogus.

If it were a real rule like not taking a penalty stoke for one that you incurred, or intentionally playing someone elses ball thats one thing to get DQ'd for.

But.....and please correct me if I'm wrong.  But a rule like "thou shalt sign thy card before you exodus the tent"...I mean cmon its not even a real freaking rule in the actual rule book is it.  I'm sure there is something about leaving the premises of the course, but the tent?? 

BTW, still waiting for a reason as to why something like this would exist in the 1st place!!

Kalen

[rjsimper]

If they gave her a pass on this, and some other competitor on the LPGA tour pointed it out, I think they'd have a bigger situation.  Argue the value of the rule all you want, but much like the Stewart Cink ruling....dumb rule, right call.  She should have been DQd - they had no other choice.

What if it happened to Tiger at a PGA event?  If he was DQd, we'd have the same convo about how dumb it seems, but if he was given a pass and Sergio or Phil wondered why in a press conference, there'd be a much bigger problem at hand.

[JohnV]

This travesty in the name of 'rules' sickens me.

Doug

It doesn't sicken me as much as people thinking that the rules should change in the last 2 minutes of a basketball game or in overtime of a hockey game.

If you allow the officials on site to determine when to bend rules like this, at some point, someone will bend it way too far and that will be a travesty.

The best thing about the Rules of Golf is that they draw pretty firm lines for things like this.  By taking a firm line on this, it makes it real obvious to the player what their basic responsibilities are.  I can't see why anyone thinks it is so much of a onus to put on  a player to have to remember to sign the d**n card.  I suppose that if you forget to sign a check the bank should just figure that you meant to and cash it for the guy who brings it in.

When I was working the Futures Tour, we had a player who did everything she was supposed to do with her scorecard except she didn't turn it in and instead put it in her back pocket and went to dinner.  We were trying to make the cut and couldn't find the card.  We thought it might have been lost as we knew she had been in the scoring tent.  We finally called her.  She didn't even realize it until we called her on her cellphone.  I suppose you think that she also should be let back into the tournament.  Well, suppose she didn't have a cell phone or the battery was dead so we couldn't get in touch until she showed up the next day.  How could we make the cut or do pairings for the next day?

[Doug Ralston]

she's got nobody to blame but herself...everyone else in the tournament seems to have complied, yes??

Give it a rest folks! No one said she did not break the rules, albeit accidently. It is the penalty imposed that is sick and absurd, and the lack of any opportunity to moderate based on effect that crys out for remediation. Repeating of the fact she broke them is counterproductive and quiote self-righteous.

Doug

[Richard Choi]

she's got nobody to blame but herself...everyone else in the tournament seems to have complied, yes??

Why?

Why isn't the official scorer forced to make sure that all scorecard handed in is complete, accurate, and signed?

What the heck are they doing that is so important that they can't take 5 minutes to check the scorecards coming in?

Why does it all rely on players? Does organizers have no responsibility? Why rely on single point of failure? Why can't you just let official score keepers work with players to make sure that the scores are handled correctly???

[JohnV]

But.....and please correct me if I'm wrong.  But a rule like "thou shalt sign thy card before you exodus the tent"...I mean cmon its not even a real freaking rule in the actual rule book is it.  I'm sure there is something about leaving the premises of the course, but the tent?? 

Kalen

Sorry Kalen but it is a real rule.

Rule 6-6b reads

After completion of the round, the competitor should check his score for each hole and settle any doubtful points with the Committee.  He must ensure that the marker or markers have signed the score card, sign the score card himself and return it to the Committee asa soon as possible

Rule 6-6c reads

No alternation may be made on a score card after the competitor has returned it to the Committee.

The LPGA Tour (and most other organizations) define a scoring area and state that the card is returned to the Committee once the player leaves that scoring area.  She had left the area (about 30-40 yards away signing autographs according to the LPGA offiical at the press conference).

Now suppose that she was some minor player who wasn't asked to sign autographs.  She might have been in the locker room or in her car driving down the road.  Where do we draw the line?

[Tim_Cronin]

BTW, still waiting for a reason as to why something like this would exist in the 1st place!!

Kalen

That's a question I'd ask the LPGA people if I could. What's the history of non-signing of scorecards on the tour that a scoring "zone" was needed to determine when players were/were not in it? Does it come from incidents outside the LPGA? It is because there's no LPGA staffer running the scoring area?
And what about common sense along the way? Here's a signed scorecard, signed after a player walked through an invisible wall, but correct in all other ways. How's about a two-stroke penalty and play on, lassie?

[Kalen Braley]

JVB,

My response to your last post would be from the Rules of Golf:

33-7. Disqualification Penalty; Committee Discretion - A penalty of disqualification may in exceptional individual cases be waived, modified or imposed if the Committee considers such action warranted.

How difficult is it to use discretion in this case?

Its right there in the rule book....unlike leaving the scorers tent which as far as I know is not in the rule book.

My two cent conspriacy theory would be is that there are at least a handful of people on the LPGA tour who love to see her fall on her face, and so were militant in thier application of this "non-golf rule".  If this was indeed the case, the irony is so thick it could be sliced with a knife.

[Doug Ralston]

she's got nobody to blame but herself...everyone else in the tournament seems to have complied, yes??

Why?

Why isn't the official scorer forced to make sure that all scorecard handed in is complete, accurate, and signed?

What the heck are they doing that is so important that they can't take 5 minutes to check the scorecards coming in?

Why does it all rely on players? Does organizers have no responsibility? Why rely on single point of failure? Why can't you just let official score keepers work with players to make sure that the scores are handled correctly???

I agree. But to me far more important is why we think rules are things 'written in flames by God on stone tablets'. Rule are to promote positive human interactions. When they do that, good. When they do not BAD! So judgement is needed to apply, as all circumstances have uniqueness, and need to be in context. 'Death penalty' for forgetting something that did not affect any part of this interaction call golf tournament is insanely out of proportion.

I do not care if it is Wie, me, or thee; no such absurd penalty should be mindlessly applied.

Doug

[JohnV]

Kalen,

I'd add that some organizations such as the Futures Tour, when I worked on it, had a box that the player had to deposit the card in.  Once the card was in the box, it was returned and they could be DQ'ed even if they were sitting at the table when the scorer took it out of the box.  I even got DQ'ed for this once in an Oregon GA event.  As soon as I dropped it in the box I realized I hadn't signed it.  I don't do that anymore and I bet Michelle won't either.

I hate the boxes.  The scoring tent, trailer, room or other area is well defined and gives the officials a chance to save the player.  The smart player will sit there and let the official make sure it is ok before leaving.  The dumb player will throw the card on the table and walk out.

Tim, it happens all the time.  Many of the DQ's every week are for unsigned cards.  Usually it is because the player is POed.

Because that isn't the rule.  Without a signature how do we know the rest of the card is correct.

Richard, you assume she waited and gave them the time to check it.

I'm really sorry that so many people think this is so hard to do and such a burden to impose on a player.

[JohnV]

JVB,

My response to your last post would be from the Rules of Golf:

33-7. Disqualification Penalty; Committee Discretion - A penalty of disqualification may in exceptional individual cases be waived, modified or imposed if the Committee considers such action warranted.

How difficult is it to use discretion in this case?

Its right there in the rule book....unlike leaving the scorers tent which as far as I know is not in the rule book.

My two cent conspriacy theory would be is that there are at least a handful of people on the LPGA tour who love to see her fall on her face, and so were militant in thier application of this "non-golf rule".  If this was indeed the case, the irony is so thick it could be sliced with a knife.

Because the Rules of Golf don't allow it.  Decision 33-7/3 and 33-7/4 both make it clear that the competitor is responsible for the correctness of the card and that the Committee can not waive the penalty.

[David Wigler]

JVB,

The techonology is there with computers and such...but the data is only as good as is inputted.  With the size of the purses these days on the professional tours, would think it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to hire someone to take on a task like this. In the end though, I was obviously being sarcastic with Jesse. 

However, I'm not seeing any logical reason as to why MW gets a DQ in this case?  You have tons of tournament experience, perhaps you have some insight on why a rule like this exists in the 1st place and more so why it should deserve a DQ if broken.

Kalen--

Not all competitive golfers play in tournaments whose organizers have the resources to do what's done to track players' scores.  Therefore, do we say that once a player has earned the ability to play in a high-profile tournament, he/she need not be accountable for his/her own score because someone else is doing it?  Heck, the incompetency of the guy in MW's scoring tent doesn't exactly inspire confidence that third parties will do a better job of scorekeeping and accounting than the players themselves.

~~~

At my university, exams are all unproctored, and some are take-home (i.e. you can do them in your dorm room, with a closed textbook for the course whose exam you're taking in your bookshelf). When you finish an exam (or any other assignment, for that matter), you must pledge your work as follows: "On my honor, I have received no unacknowledged aid on this assignment." If you are found to have cheated or plagiarized on any assignment, you are dismissed from the university. If you fail to or forget to pledge something, you may evoke suspicion from a professor.

Now, I'm not saying this in order to suggest that Michelle Wie cheated or is dishonorable. The above anecdote is more about the signatures on scorecards than Wie's latest gaffe.

By signing your scorecard, you are tying your just-played round of golf to a main tenet of the game of golf--integrity and honor. If you no longer require players to sign their scorecards in competition, you lose all basis for holding them accountable for their round. And that would be the biggest blow imaginable to the history, nature, and ethos of the game.

There are reasons why some of these rules are in place. Michelle Wie broke the rule and owned up to it. I'm not a Wie fan, but I find how she's handled this VERY honorable. Good on her; those who are trying to excuse her should ruminate on the implications of what they're suggesting.

Tim - Your post highlights my point.  She was not DQ'd for failing to sign, she was DQ'd for taking four extra steps.  In your analogy, imagine I walk into the professors office to hand in my exam.  I thank him for teaching me, turn around and walk out.  I take four steps down the hall turn back around walk back into his office and say "Professor, I forgot to sign the honor code."  He would hand me back my exam to sign and that would be that.  In this LPGA case, she was tossed from the university for a violation of four steps and less than 10 seconds.

I take a bad drop on my first shot of a par five and I can penalize myself and go back at any point up until I play tee off the next hole.  I record a wrong score, I can fix it at any point until I turn the card in.  Examples abound where the rules allow for fixing material mistakes.  Here a take four steps out of a tent where volunteers were gawking at me instead of doing their jobs and I am DQ'd, even though I broke no rule that gave me an advantage on the course - lunacy!

BTW - I am not apologizing for Wie.  She broke the rule and the punishment is stated.  I am lambasting the LPGA for having such a stupid rule, that is so black and white and so penal and has absolutely nothing to do with the golf on the course.  The USGA rule (I wrote it in an earlier post) would not have even penalized her for this offense, let alone DQ'd her.

[rjsimper]

JVB,

My response to your last post would be from the Rules of Golf:

33-7. Disqualification Penalty; Committee Discretion - A penalty of disqualification may in exceptional individual cases be waived, modified or imposed if the Committee considers such action warranted.

How difficult is it to use discretion in this case?

Its right there in the rule book....unlike leaving the scorers tent which as far as I know is not in the rule book.

My two cent conspriacy theory would be is that there are at least a handful of people on the LPGA tour who love to see her fall on her face, and so were militant in thier application of this "non-golf rule".  If this was indeed the case, the irony is so thick it could be sliced with a knife.

Breaking a rule that is IN the rulebook hardly qualifies as an exceptional circumstance.

You can't possibly believe that this is the result of people conspiring against Michelle Wie...that's ridiculous.

Michelle Wie is not the first person that has been disqualified for scorecard signing issues...its her responsibility and one that every professional golfer takes on when the tee it up.  Hell, its a responsibility every tournament golfer has PERIOD.  Know the rules of golf, know the rules of competition.  Where do you draw the line on which rules can be broken and which can't?

She just happens to be one of the most public golfers on the LPGA tour and the bigger they are, the harder they fall...small guys fall too, but big ones make the news. 

[Kalen Braley]

JVB,

Thank you, I stand at least partially corrected!!     However I still didn't see the phrase "scorers tent" 

If we really want to fiddle with the exact wordage here, then MW was screwed even before she left the tent right?  Because when she handed that card over it had been "returned to the Committe" at that point right?

So she was already fooboozled before she even got out of her chair much less left the tent.  Because handing it over meant when it left her fingertips. 

I guess this is my point to all this lunacy....the spirt of the rules are being violated over completely arbitrary rules and designations.  Especially in light of the committee having full power to over turn all this nonsense and get back to playing golf.

Kalen

[JESII]

Kalen,

Why did she even go into the tent in the first place?

[JohnV]

Tim - Your post highlights my point.  She was not DQ'd for failing to sign, she was DQ'd for taking four extra steps.

30-40 yards away signing autographs according to the statements of Michelle and the volunteers as reported by the LPGA in the press conference.  If she wasn't famous, she could have been 500 yards away.  Where do you draw the line?  The LPGA and the all others draw it as the edge of the scoring area, be it a tent, a line on the ground, a trailer or something else.

Kalen,

Every good organization defines some way to determine when the card is returned.  It is on their hard card or somewhere else in what the players have been given.  The LPGA says it is the scoring tent.  They even extend that to the ropes that hold surround the tent.  They could say it was when you handed it to the official, but they do give the players some leeway.

Some organizations do things like putting a box on the table and once you put the card in the box you are done.  I don't like this as it gives the player and the Committee no opportunity at all to correct an error.

A line is drawn and it is the tent.  There is no need to walk out of the tent without asking that the card be verified.  I assume she didn't do this.  If she did and they said it was OK and then she left, I'd be willing to say there was a Committee error and I'm sure the LPGA would also.  I have to conclude she didn't ask them to check it.  You can bet they didn't want to DQ her and would have sought any way to avoid it if possible.

[Kalen Braley]

JVB,

My response to your last post would be from the Rules of Golf:

33-7. Disqualification Penalty; Committee Discretion - A penalty of disqualification may in exceptional individual cases be waived, modified or imposed if the Committee considers such action warranted.

How difficult is it to use discretion in this case?

Its right there in the rule book....unlike leaving the scorers tent which as far as I know is not in the rule book.

My two cent conspriacy theory would be is that there are at least a handful of people on the LPGA tour who love to see her fall on her face, and so were militant in thier application of this "non-golf rule".  If this was indeed the case, the irony is so thick it could be sliced with a knife.

Because the Rules of Golf don't allow it.  Decision 33-7/3 and 33-7/4 both make it clear that the competitor is responsible for the correctness of the card and that the Committee can not waive the penalty.

JVB,

Will all due respect, those decisions apply explicitly for not signing a card, or signing an incorrect card.  IN THIS CASE, MW did neither.  She did in fact sign the scorecard, and it was in fact correct.

So I'm not seeing how this applies.....

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,

Why did she even go into the tent in the first place?

Jes,

This is perhaps the best question asked all night on this thread...I shall think about this!! 

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