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Craig Sweet

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Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #175 on: July 19, 2008, 06:07:16 PM »
What I just read was that she did sign her card, but not within the "scoring area"....apparently the LPGA uses a white line to denote the scoring area...this week they did not use it....the rules people did not learn that she had signed outside the boundary until mid day today and the decision was to wait for her to finish and have her explain what happened.
LOCK HIM UP!!!

Craig Sweet

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Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #176 on: July 19, 2008, 06:12:07 PM »
This is from ESPN

"Wie said that after she finished her round on Friday, she left the tent where players sign their scorecards and was chased down by some of the tournament volunteers working in the tent who pointed out she hadn't signed.

Wie returned to the tent and signed the card.

"I thought it would be OK," she said.

But Wie, according to Witters, had already walked outside the roped-off area around the tent. At that point, the mistake was final.

According to the LPGA statement, LPGA rules dictate that the scoring area is the roped area defining the boundary of the scoring tent.

The area may also be marked by a white line, which has the effect of decreasing the size of the scoring area. At the State Farm Classic, the white line wasn't deemed necessary and as a result, the scoring area was the tent.

Witters said she and other tour officials didn't learn about the error from volunteers until well after Wie teed off Saturday. They let her finish the round, then took her to the office where she and her caddy, Tim Vickers, were informed of the ruling."
LOCK HIM UP!!!

Craig Sweet

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Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #177 on: July 19, 2008, 06:21:22 PM »
Too bad...a good finish probably wold have earned her an exemption for next year...she needs something like $150,000 in earnings to be allowed full time on the tour...she has about $25,000 in winnings so far this year...this was a very, very costly mistake...

LOCK HIM UP!!!

David Wigler

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Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #178 on: July 19, 2008, 06:25:33 PM »
The LPGA should be ashamed of themselves.  This is a joke (And I was in the Wie basher camp back in the day).  She actually complied with the USGA rules of golf which read:

USGA rule 6-6b: After completion of the round, the competitor should check his score for each hole and settle any doubtful points with the Committee. He must ensure that the marker or markers have signed the score card, sign the score card himself and return it to the Committee as soon as possible.

She checked her card, handed it to the official (Forgetting to sign it) and left the tent.  The official immediately grabbed her and told her she had forgotten to sign, so she walked back in and signed.  Were this a USGA or PGA event, no harm - no foul.  The problem is the LPGA has a moronic codicil to the rule that reads:

A player is deemed to have returned her score card to the Committee when she leaves the roped area of the scoring tent or leaves the scoring trailer.

Why is this rule there?  What advantage is gained?  This is the height of stupidity.  This is someone making rules because they have nothing better to do.  So she takes four steps out of the scorers tent and is disqualified for turning in an unsigned scorecard. SHAME SHAME SHAME on the LPGA.

And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

Chip Gaskins

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Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #179 on: July 19, 2008, 06:32:38 PM »
Someone tell me what kind of advantage she gained by not signing a scorecard.


Rules should be in place and enforced to prevent a player from gaining an un-fair advantage over their competitor. You all can make fun of her for it all you want, but at the end of the day, she was in 2nd place and now can not finish the tournament because of a rule that doesn't even regulate how someone plays. I think it would be great for the game of golf if the LPGA would let her sign her scorecard and play in the final round, which could have been done this morning, if the Tour knew she didn't sign in the first place.

ryan-

i totally agree with you.  rules that have nothing to do with un-fair advantage should be looked at as procedural at best and be allowed to examined on a case by case basis.  similar thing happened to Mark Roe and Jesper a few years ago and it all just seems silly.  no one cheated, they just didn't jump through the right procedural hoop.

JESII

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Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #180 on: July 19, 2008, 06:41:58 PM »
Are you guys not realizing that, if left completely to her own devices the card never would have been signed?




David Wigler,

Are you 100% sure that all associations do not have a similar ruling? I know the NCAA used to have you place the card in a box when you were done and you were getting no help after you put it in there...I suspect all events have something in place because this really is the first thing you learn in tournament golf.

Craig Sweet

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Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #181 on: July 19, 2008, 06:48:54 PM »
JES....

"Are you guys not realizing that, if left completely to her own devices the card never would have been signed?"


BUT the card WAS signed...surely she is not the first player that had to be reminded to sign their score card...
LOCK HIM UP!!!

Ryan Farrow

Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #182 on: July 19, 2008, 06:52:56 PM »
Chip, nice to see someone else here with a level head.

Just a few more comments,

1. This is even more ridiculous than before. We now have a designated signing area to sign your card, which is still not valid if you enter it, then leave it then try to get back into it. lets not hope a swarm of bees chases players from the tent one year, or they too will be disqualified, because at the LPGA its not who plays the best, but who follows the procedures best, then plays the best.


2. Sue Witters has absolutely no class.

AND I QUOTE from espn: Sue Witters, the LPGA's director of tournament competitions, disqualified Wie in a small office in an LPGA trailer at the golf course after asking her what had happened.

"She was like a little kid after you tell them there's no Santa Claus,"


3. Props to Michele Wie, who, at the press conference handled the situation the right way. Admitted her mistake and accepted the punishment.





...and I was at one time A Michelle Wie hater.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2008, 06:54:58 PM by Ryan Farrow »

JESII

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Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #183 on: July 19, 2008, 07:00:03 PM »
Craig Sweet,

You  posted that someone had to chase her down after she had turned in the card, unsigned, to go back and sign it.

The only thing strange about all this is that they let her come back in and sign the card, thereby giving you all an opportunity to bitch about how unfair and stupid it is to not make an exception for her.

Jeff Shelman

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Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #184 on: July 19, 2008, 07:04:55 PM »
I'm not a big fan of how her career has been managed, but this is unfortunate. I don't wish ill will on her, but I wonder how this will impact her?

This is almost as silly by the LPGA folks as the whole Stacy Lewis thing at the US Women's Open (her money there doesn't count toward her card because it is a USGA event rather than a LPGA one).

Craig Sweet

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Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #185 on: July 19, 2008, 07:05:27 PM »
JESII...

I do not believe I, or anyone else, has suggested they make an "exception" for her...thus far most of the post have stated the opinion that it is a ridiculous rule...I wonder just what she did do in the scorers tent before she left without signing the card?  I wonder what the officials were doing when she came in?
LOCK HIM UP!!!

JESII

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Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #186 on: July 19, 2008, 07:14:36 PM »
Craig,

I believe there are a few requests for the heads of the LPGA folks...

David Wigler

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Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #187 on: July 19, 2008, 07:15:54 PM »
Craig Sweet,

You  posted that someone had to chase her down after she had turned in the card, unsigned, to go back and sign it.

The only thing strange about all this is that they let her come back in and sign the card, thereby giving you all an opportunity to bitch about how unfair and stupid it is to not make an exception for her.


JES - We are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.  I do play some tournaments (Poorly) and certainly know to sign my card.  If I walk away from the scorers table with it unsigned, the tournament official is going to look at me and say "Sir, you forgot to sign your card." At which point, I will turn around and sign.  

Golf is a game of honor.  The signing rule is in place because it means that you need to put your honor behind your own score.  If I had a five on a hole and the person scoring for me gave me a four, I need to sign and put my honor behind it, which will ensure that honest and honorable people check the card and fix errors.  What does any of that have to do with taking four steps out of a scorers tent?  

As I said, if this was a USGA or PGA event, she broke no rule and would have been fine.  The moron at the LPGA, who added the codicil about the scorers tent is the problem.  The scorers tent has nothing to do with the honor of my card.  I repeat, SHAME SHAME SHAME on the LPGA.
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

Joe Bausch

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Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #188 on: July 19, 2008, 07:24:45 PM »
This is very sad.

Having worked as a scorer for the McDonald's LPGA tournament, I am familiar with the procedure after a round.  I've been right there in the scoring tent.  I only have one thing to ask at this point:  where was Wie's caddy?

In my experience the caddy serves to make sure their 'boss' signs for a correct score.
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John_Cullum

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Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #189 on: July 19, 2008, 07:30:59 PM »
The defined scoring areea is not unique to the LPGA. I have worked at numerous PGA tour qualifying tournaments and the scoring area is always defined, and if a player leaves the defined area without signing (which we won't let happen) it's over-dq.
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Sean_A

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Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #190 on: July 19, 2008, 07:36:12 PM »
Where else but in the USofA would folks look to blame anybody but the player for not signing a card in the prescribed manner?  Wie made a mistake and should be allowed to take responsibility for her mistake.  Hopefully she will learn from it and move on.  If folks keep trying to cover up mistakes people will never learn how to do things properly.  Jeepers, the culture of the country is getting more and more pass the buckish.  Its an awful attitude to take.

Ciao

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Tim Gavrich

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Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #191 on: July 19, 2008, 07:37:15 PM »
Wie messed up and made a stupid mistake.  Rules are rules until they aren't rules anymore.  You can make excuses for her poor play when it happens, I suppose, but I really think it's silly to make excuses for her unbelievable absent-mindedness.  I am glad she fessed up.  And I would have liked to see her play well.

I think, however, that the LPGA is even more to blame.  Is it possible that they kept quiet about this until today because they were going to be on NBC and they didn't want to disqualify Wie before she was shown on national television, rather than on the Golf Channel?  If so, that's absolutely unconscionable.
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Joe Bausch

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Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #192 on: July 19, 2008, 07:44:25 PM »
Wie messed up and made a stupid mistake.  Rules are rules until they aren't rules anymore.  You can make excuses for her poor play when it happens, I suppose, but I really think it's silly to make excuses for her unbelievable absent-mindedness.  I am glad she fessed up.  And I would have liked to see her play well.

I think, however, that the LPGA is even more to blame.  Is it possible that they kept quiet about this until today because they were going to be on NBC and they didn't want to disqualify Wie before she was shown on national television, rather than on the Golf Channel?  If so, that's absolutely unconscionable.

I think the tourney was on ESPN2, not that this matters one iota.

@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Tim Gavrich

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Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #193 on: July 19, 2008, 08:05:53 PM »
Wie messed up and made a stupid mistake.  Rules are rules until they aren't rules anymore.  You can make excuses for her poor play when it happens, I suppose, but I really think it's silly to make excuses for her unbelievable absent-mindedness.  I am glad she fessed up.  And I would have liked to see her play well.

I think, however, that the LPGA is even more to blame.  Is it possible that they kept quiet about this until today because they were going to be on NBC and they didn't want to disqualify Wie before she was shown on national television, rather than on the Golf Channel?  If so, that's absolutely unconscionable.
My bad.  I saw a highlight and saw what I thought it looked like the NBC graphics.  My bad.  But still, my conspiracy-theory may be plausible, I suppose.
I think the tourney was on ESPN2, not that this matters one iota.


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Tim_Cronin

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Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #194 on: July 19, 2008, 08:07:48 PM »
I've read the AP story and heard Wie's explanation on TV, and there's a couple of things I don't know:
Who runs the scoring tent in Springfield, the LPGA itself (with at least one staffer) or tournament volunteers? The onus is always on the player to know the rules, but the enforcement of the rules sits with the outfit running the tournament. In this case, it's the LPGA.
I also don't know how the LPGA doesn't know until the next morning that Wie doesn't sign the card. Doesn't an LPGA official check the scorecards to confirm the scores before making the third round pairings? Computers with scoring on them have been known to be wrong.
Wie goofed, but until I know the answer to the above the LPGA goofed as well. Perhaps the LPGA should hire professionals to run its tournaments.
I run a junior tournament, and I'm there to check the scorecards. We've had players forget to sign, and we know it before they leave the scoring table. It's not hard to do. (The only time we call them back is if we can't read a numeral, which, thanks to their penmanship, happens more than it should.)
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Brent Hutto

Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #195 on: July 19, 2008, 08:11:21 PM »
There has to be a moment at which the score is official, settled and not subject to change. The Rules choose to signify that moment when you sign and hand in the card. If it weren't required that you sign it would have to be some other signifier. At some point, the player has to step up and attest that a certain number is THE SCORE. Happens every round and it's not a big deal.

What do you critics suggest instead. Should you be able to go back the next day or the next week and say that you want to use a different number?

Chip Gaskins

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Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #196 on: July 19, 2008, 08:25:01 PM »
Rules are rules until they aren't rules anymore.  

Tim-

Correct.  She messed up, under the current rules she is DQed.  BUT, the rule is silly as it is so black and white...it needs some humanity in it.  Sorry, I just don't think the world is black and white, I think it is shades of gray.

Chip


Tim_Cronin

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Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #197 on: July 19, 2008, 08:27:06 PM »
The news conference transcript is on the website of the Springfield State Journal-Register.
There I found the answer to my first question: The scoring tent is run by volunteers. And it appears LPGA staffers don't see the scorecards (or they missed it too). An excerpt:

Q. Can a volunteer or have volunteers looked at a card and said, hey, you forgot to sign your card? Are they authorized to do that kind of thing?

SUE WITTERS: Yes, they're encouraged, actually, to do that to try to save a player.

What happens is the players go over their card, sign and return them. Then the committee scoring committee sits in there and basically checks the additions. So the players are just responsible for the hole by hole scores, not the addition of them. So we ask the volunteers to go ahead and check the addition. Also on top put previous total, this total and the new total.

They are instructed if they do find a card without a signature, to go ahead and say to the player, hey, you didn't sign your card.

Now players leave the scoring area with different, you know some get up and rocket out. Some hang out, talk, give gloves, balls and then they leave. There's no set way to say they're in there for 10 seconds or 30 seconds or a minute. Everybody's different. Some hang out and talk to the volunteers, some just left.

Had it been caught before Michelle physically left the roped area, she could have signed it and handed it back. That's another reason we don't like to use the box method which would be to put the card in the box, because then it's considered returned. Once you put it in the box, you get up, you can't go back to that card.

We try to give them as much time as we can, but we have to have an area that is considered the scoring area or when would the card be returned? Could they go have dinner and come back and give us the card? That's the reason for defining a scoring area.

Q. Also, a rule is a rule. But this was Michelle Wie in a big tournament. I guess what I'm asking, how did it feel personally to have to tell somebody that there is no Santa Claus?

SUE WITTERS: Rotten. I think that's about the best word to describe it. It was really hard. She's gone through a lot. She's finally making her way back. She's taken her knocks by everybody, and she's finally proving once again what a good golfer she is.

To have this happen, I mean, I can't even imagine what's going through her head right now.

-----
Ryan Farrows, Ms. Witters seems all right by me. She used an apt analogy.
Wie, incidentally, didn't answer questions. She gave her statement and left before the LPGA officials spoke. Had I been there, this is my question to her: "Do you think this was fair?"
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J_ Crisham

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Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #198 on: July 19, 2008, 08:41:09 PM »
Rules are rules until they aren't rules anymore.  

Tim-

Correct.  She messed up, under the current rules she is DQed.  BUT, the rule is silly as it is so black and white...it needs some humanity in it.  Sorry, I just don't think the world is black and white, I think it is shades of gray.

Chip


Chip, I agree with you. I think she got hosed by a rule that should be reveiwable with regards to players intent. She wasn't signing for a lower scoe.Incidentally, I am not a Wie fan-just a personal preference. I feel she also got hosed by the LPGA. Why the hell did she play round 3? They should have decided immediately. You have a second place player that is allowed to play pending an investigation. Significant trauma for an 18 year old. Just my opinion.  Jack

Tim_Cronin

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Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #199 on: July 19, 2008, 08:53:55 PM »
Jack, they had no clue she hadn't signed the card until her third round was underway. And, according to the transcript, they only found out by overhearing a volunteer tell someone something in the press tent. What if they didn't know until Sunday night and Wie had won?
Quite an outfit, this LPGA.
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