[Ken Moum]

Can someone post Creamer's USGA record as an amateur? I don't remember her at all. I know she won a bunch of AJGA stuff. Just asking.

She certainly didn't have anything that matches Wie's win in the WAPL, IMHO.

From her LPGA bio:

Creamer was the top-ranked amateur in 2003 and was named the 2003 American Junior Golf Association (AJGA) player of the year.

In 2003 and 2004, she was a semifinalist at both the U.S. Women’s Amateur Championship and the U.S. Junior Girls’ Championship. She won a total of 11 AJGA tournaments, including the 2003 AJGA Polo Golf Junior Classic.

Creamer was a member of the victorious 2004 U.S. Curtis Cup Team
and represented the United States at the 2002 and 2003 PING Junior Solheim Cup matches. As an amateur, she played in 10 LPGA events from 2003-04 and posted five top-20 finishes.

She posted her top LPGA finish at the 2004 ShopRite LPGA Classic, where she finished one shot behind champion Cristie Kerr. Her additional top finishes in LPGA competition include a tie for 13th at the U.S. Women’s Open (tied with Michelle Wie for low amateur honors); 13th at the Wegmans Rochester LPGA Presented by Lincoln Mercury; tied for 18th at the BMO Financial Group Canadian Women’s Open; and 18th at the Wendy’s Championship for Children.

[Garland Bayley]

... The best advice she got was from Tiger and it was ignored. He said she needed to stay in the amateur ranks and learn to win.  This did not happen.  Is there a way for her to accomplish this now?  I just don't know.
Best
Dave

So Tiger gives great advice? Let me give you a bio. "She was the 2002 NCAA champion"
"In 2003 she won the U.S. Women's Amateur and was runner-up at the U. S. Women's Amateur Public Links."

Sounds like staying an amateur and learning to win to me! Where is she today? Playing the U. S. Women's Open and shooting 81-79 the first two days. I guess getting beat by a 13 year old at the public links must be the anti-dote for Tiger advice.

In case you don't know, the topic is Virada Nirapathpongporn.

she won the pub links - her only big victory of a not too illustrious and shortened amateur career.

So what is your point Dean? Even though her only "big" victory was the public links she has still far out performed Virada and others that had "bigger" victories. To me, finishing one stroke back at an LPGA major is a bigger accomplishment than winning the amateur and then being a big flop on the LPGA tour. Part of the reason you lament her short amateur career is that she jumped from competing as amateur against the women to competing against the men making the round of 8 (as I remember) and losing to the eventual champion of the mens public links.

[Garland Bayley]

Garland, thanks for pointing that out.  Brittany Lang nearly won this thing as a Duke student three years ago.  Aree & Naree.  Too many more to name.

There aren't many like Inkster and Sorenstam that get more and more competitive as they age.  I'm interested in seeing what happens to the 32 or so South Koreans on the LPGA Tour.  Obviously they've jumped into the sport.  How many will want to work as hard at 30 as they do at 20?

What people don't understand (or forget) is that Tiger's advice is valid for very few people, the most significant being Tiger Woods. Tiger's advice is not valid for Tom Watson, Lee Trevino, Gary Player, etc. If you try to argue it was valid for Jack Nicklaus, then you must understand that Jack didn't think continued amateur status would be of much value to him.

[Glenn Spencer]

Can someone post Creamer's USGA record as an amateur? I don't remember her at all. I know she won a bunch of AJGA stuff. Just asking.

She certainly didn't have anything that matches Wie's win in the WAPL, IMHO.

From her LPGA bio:

Creamer was the top-ranked amateur in 2003 and was named the 2003 American Junior Golf Association (AJGA) player of the year.

In 2003 and 2004, she was a semifinalist at both the U.S. Women’s Amateur Championship and the U.S. Junior Girls’ Championship. She won a total of 11 AJGA tournaments, including the 2003 AJGA Polo Golf Junior Classic.

Creamer was a member of the victorious 2004 U.S. Curtis Cup Team
and represented the United States at the 2002 and 2003 PING Junior Solheim Cup matches. As an amateur, she played in 10 LPGA events from 2003-04 and posted five top-20 finishes.

She posted her top LPGA finish at the 2004 ShopRite LPGA Classic, where she finished one shot behind champion Cristie Kerr. Her additional top finishes in LPGA competition include a tie for 13th at the U.S. Women’s Open (tied with Michelle Wie for low amateur honors); 13th at the Wegmans Rochester LPGA Presented by Lincoln Mercury; tied for 18th at the BMO Financial Group Canadian Women’s Open; and 18th at the Wendy’s Championship for Children.

Thank you very much, I don't remember those semifinal appearances at all. I knew she a sparkling resume, but I didn't know it was back to back Semis good.

[Matt_Ward]

Mark B:

Happy to handle your action on Wie's career - any time you want.

What's Michelle won to date Mark? Please knock youself out with all the titles that she has right now. She's lucky to make the cut at the Women's Open and therefore she's on the short list to make people forget about Mickey Wright, Annika, -- please stop with the inane comparisons because there's nothing to compare right now -- or likely ever.

Please I have heard all the kool-aid pro-Wie people and it's time for a small mea culpa on their parts regarding their overplay on just where she will be heading. I don't doubt she's quite plenty of talent and her long game is superb -- but when she wins the first time on the LPGA circuit then call me before you make such boastful claims that she will leave all the others in her dust.

John C:

Help me stop laughing with the "worlds better" than Mickey Wright and Annika Sorrenstam. Surely you jest buckeroo.

Mickey Wright was an early phenom out of Diego and her record from even the earliest of times trumps the Michelle "I am high on talent and promise but short on titles" Wie.

John, I would hope you would honor the game's past greats with a bit more memory than that. All of the pro-Wie backers that were falling over themselves saying she would contend on the men's tour and be a force beyond even Tiger are now lookign quite foolish and really need to come clean on this site that their exuberance was clearly misplaced to the degree they painted her.

Michelle has no real fell or putting sense. You mentioned Charles Howell. So what does he have to do with Michelle? The fact is that on short chips and pitches she is extremely awkward and it shows up in big time situations far too often.

I don't doubt Michelle's potential -- but potential is about a possible "some" day not a guarantee. The words Tiger spoke about here still ring true for me.

[Mike_Cirba]

Nice to see a good architecturally-related discusssion that isn't about Merion heating up.   

[JESII]

You know Mike, I was just about to say that while the Merion threads got out of control in terms of how to treat each other, at least it was not requesting an admission of the failure of an 18 year old college freshmen...these type of threads are pretty nauseating to me...

[Dean Stokes]

You know Mike, I was just about to say that while the Merion threads got out of control in terms of how to treat each other, at least it was not requesting an admission of the failure of an 18 year old college freshmen...these type of threads are pretty nauseating to me...

so why read them?

[Jay Flemma]

Look it's simple.

LPGA majors = zero

Womens amateurs? = zero

LPGA tourneys won? = zero

men's cuts made on US tour or euro tour? = zero

Junior amateurs?  zero

Is there progress?  A bit - considering her parents. but you know what?  Major portions of the golf media all jumped and got bitten on the keister.  She's just ordinary everybody...which is still an outstanding golfer, but let the kid be a kid for a while...and stop[ trying to force her down our throats...we're immune now.

[JESII]

You know Mike, I was just about to say that while the Merion threads got out of control in terms of how to treat each other, at least it was not requesting an admission of the failure of an 18 year old college freshmen...these type of threads are pretty nauseating to me...

so why read them?

How else would you know what was being said?

[John_Conley]

John C:

Help me stop laughing with the "worlds better" than Mickey Wright and Annika Sorrenstam. Surely you jest buckeroo.

Mickey Wright was an early phenom out of Diego and her record from even the earliest of times trumps the Michelle "I am high on talent and promise but short on titles" Wie.

John, I would hope you would honor the game's past greats with a bit more memory than that. All of the pro-Wie backers that were falling over themselves saying she would contend on the men's tour and be a force beyond even Tiger are now lookign quite foolish and really need to come clean on this site that their exuberance was clearly misplaced to the degree they painted her.

Michelle has no real fell or putting sense. You mentioned Charles Howell. So what does he have to do with Michelle? The fact is that on short chips and pitches she is extremely awkward and it shows up in big time situations far too often.

I don't doubt Michelle's potential -- but potential is about a possible "some" day not a guarantee. The words Tiger spoke about here still ring true for me.

Matt, you have no idea what you are talking about.  By addressing me I'm assuming you are directing comments to me and not others.  I don't know what anyone else feels, but I have never felt Michelle Wie could consistently compete with male professionals.  I have said, and it is true, that if a girl/woman played against men she'd do better than others.  (Obviously this was said when she was 15 and playing well, not now.)

Mickey Wright, someone I respect immensely, has not been disrespected when I point out that she wasn't the player Wie was at age 13-14-15.  She wasn't.  She was not regularly finishing in the Top 5 of Majors.  Neither was Sorenstam.  There's no way you can argue that.

Finally, you and not me is discussing her potential.  I've never felt the story was about her in the future...she played great in 2004-5.  In fact, I told everyone there was no upside to the distance she drove the ball.

Feel free to argue with someone else about Michelle Wie.  You talk about her potential.  You stack her credentials against people that were twice her age or more.  I'll continue to remember that nobody her age - boy or girl - was able to play like that at 13.

Final comment on Wie and the other teen queens...

I watched a show on TGC when Pressel qualified for the Open at age 12 or whatever.  Cliff Kresge and Laura Diaz were in the studio at a time when Diaz was probably Top 5 in the world.  Lerner or whoever asked the pros for their thoughts about Morgan.  Diaz said, "uh, I didn't even play golf when I was her age."  It was obvious she didn't know what to think.

I'll just leave it at this.  You'll never be impressed by what anyone does at age 13.

As for me, I'll be proud if my son can break 80 by age 14!

[Ken Moum]

Look it's simple.

LPGA majors = zero

Womens amateurs? = zero

LPGA tourneys won? = zero

men's cuts made on US tour or euro tour? = zero

Junior amateurs?  zero

Is there progress?  A bit - considering her parents. but you know what?  Major portions of the golf media all jumped and got bitten on the keister.  She's just ordinary everybody...which is still an outstanding golfer, but let the kid be a kid for a while...and stop[ trying to force her down our throats...we're immune now.

So, winning the WAPL at a younger than any other USGA "adult" national champion--beating that year's U.S Amateur Champion in the final counts for nothing in your book?

sigh.....

Ken

[Jay Flemma]

Less than zero.

Nobody cares about the women's amateur publinx except spin doctors and wie warriors.

I'll bet you ten bucks that if we were in a golf grill in any daily fee course in america and asked a random person to name any winner of the womens am publinx after Michelle Wie, they'd be more likely to name members of Fall Out Boy or the cast of some sitcom.

By the way...she ran away from competition  on several occasions...especially going out of her way to avoid the women's am a couple of times.

[Sean_A]

I get a kick out of all the Wie supporters who disappeared better & faster than any Howard Hughes could.

Saw she shot 81 today in the 1st round of the Women's Open.

Julie Inkster shot the same score today.

Let's spend 3 pages belittling her, too.

Shivas

So now you want to compare Julie Inkster to Wie?  This is the stuff I am talking about.  You guys are always on about her talent, but I want to see results and won't make announcements about greatness until Wie wins a handful.  Just let her kick on with life and stop trying to make mountains out of molehills!

Ciao

[Ken Moum]

Less than zero.
I'll bet you ten bucks that if we were in a golf grill in any daily fee course in america and asked a random person to name any winner of the womens am publinx after Michelle Wie, they'd be more likely to name members of Fall Out Boy or the cast of some sitcom.

You're right, they couldn't name the WAPL winner. And I would go one step further--I'd bet they couldn't name the champions of any of the last three U.S. Amateurs or Women's Amateurs.

I just about guarantee that not one of the 20-odd guys sitting in the grill at my club this morning could name LAST YEARS U.S. Am winner.

[Mike_Cirba]

You provincial US mainlanders still don't get it!   

There is no way that Michelle Wie could have learned enough about the game of golf as a rank amateur at age 13-14 to hit the type of shots she hit without expert counsel and advice.   At one point she was quoted as saying, "when I started playing the game, I didn't know any more than a rank beginner.   If I knew then how how difficult the game was actually going to be, Im not sure I would have started playing in the first place."

I've also come across information that contrary to our "legendary" understanding, Wie did NOT travel to the mainland US at the age of 8 as previously reported, but instead travelled there much later when she was 9 and a half!

SO much for the romantic, emotionally-sentimental story that she spent time learning at an early age under the combined tutelage of Rick Smith and Butch Harmon!!!   

Instead, I've found that the grandson of HH Barker actually discovered the baby Wie floating in a basket down a saltwater inlet wrapped in swaddling clothing.   Barker, somewhat of a OCD-ridden, "RainMan"-imitating golf-playing afficianado, devoted the next three years of his life teaching Wie the proper swing plane and mental attitude necessary to compete at the highest levels of the female game.

Despite his well-intentioned instruction, about seven days later a dashing ghost of Charles Blair Macdonald, followed closely by the spectre of his subservient son-in-law HJ Whigham, told the young Michelle to discard all of that GardenCity nouveau riche nonsense and get back to basics.   

THey had her create a swing that was based on exact imitations...templates if you will...of 18 swing components and keys of the 18 greatest players ever to set foot on a golf course, and they did it all in 3 and a half days...well...actually...a total of about 19 hours spread over the next two and a half years, excluding bathroom runs, 36 holes of play at Mauna Kea, and some mindless chatter about the differences between Pacific and Atlantic coastal winds.

So, was born a champion...a future champion.    err...someday...perhaps.

In any case. you now know the true and exact background story. 

[John_Conley]

Two thoughts about Wie's future after watching the Women's Open closely:

1) there is a story on her MC up on the USGA website.  It tells of her being directed by Mom to work on putting and ballstriking after rounds for HOURS.  This week.  Ugh.  She has the talent but will never beat all these others without at least some of the drive.  Burnout much?

2) Alfredsson gave us a glimpse of the incredible advantage on paper for a lady that generates clubhead speed.  Wie often times can't hit it in better places than a small lazy swinger like In Bee Park, but a few times around she can open up and enjoy doing things the rest of the field can't.

[Jeff Shelman]

Two passages from the NY Times from over the weekend:

"In her last 99 holes at major championships, Wie is 34 over par. Comprising her last five major championship finishes are four missed cuts and a tie for 84th."

And another:

"As she tries to rebuild her game, working to regain the length off the tee she lost to injury last year, people whom she competed against as a youngster, like 19-year-old Yani Tseng, who won the L.P.G.A. Championship three weeks ago, and Morgan Pressel, who won the Kraft Nabisco at 19, have won major championships.

Paula Creamer, who won the 2005 Sybase Classic a few days before graduating from high school, became the youngest winner of a multi-round event in L.P.G.A. history at 18. Creamer said the only way to win was to draw from the experience of having been there. “It is all about confidence and knowing that you’ve done it before and, definitely, it’s helped a lot,” Creamer said. “Knowing that you can win in match play or stroke play, come from behind, go out with the lead, that kind of thing.” "

Here's a link if you want to read the whole thing: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/29/sports/golf/29wie.html?_r=1&ref=sports&oref=slogin

[Garland Bayley]

Paula Creamer, winner (if I am not mistaken) of no USGA championships. It seems Jeff that you are using her quote to advise Michelle, winner of one USGA championship how to conduct her career.
    

[Jeff Shelman]

Creamer, despite throwing up all over herself on Sunday, does still have one more LPGA victory than Ms. Wie.

[Phil Benedict]

Creamer, despite throwing up all over herself on Sunday, does still have one more LPGA victory than Ms. Wie.

According to her Wikopedia page Creamer has 6 LPGA wins.

[Garland Bayley]

You fellas care to compare the number of starts on tour and frequency of tournament play of Paula vs. Michelle while you are at it? Also while you are at it, compare the number of injuries, and the number of matches won against men in USGA events.

[Phil Benedict]

Garland,

Creamer is a good player but I don't expect her career path to produce anything like greatness.  I feel the same way about Pressel; they don't have that much game.

On the other hand, based on results extending back nearly two years I now believe that it is possible that both of these girls will have better pro careers than Wie.  Two years ago I would have thought this was crazy; Wie had so much more game than either of them or for that matter any other woman player, including Ochoa.

Wie has fallen into the abyss and it's possible she'll never climb out of it.  It's happened to others, although usually later in life.  I hope she makes it back but it ain't a sure thing; she's not the same golfer she was two years ago and on the big stage she's got a long way to go.  At this point there is no assurance that Wie will even be a consistent winner on the LPGA Tour, never mind a dominant player.

Wie has the potential to be as big a flameout as anybody I can think of in any sport.  I am hard pressed to come up with a parallel if she doesn't come back to at least be a top 5 player again, which she was as a 15-year old!

[Garland Bayley]

Phil,

You and I are pretty much in tune with respect to the future of one MW.
It has to be a wait and see kind of thing.

I am a little impatient when we are presented with slanted excerpts from articles like we saw above.

[Jeff Shelman]

Garland,

Is there anything inaccurate in what I posted from the NYT?

Has Wie not missed four cuts and finished T-84 in her past five majors?

Is it inaccurate to say that three players in a little more than a year have won major championships while still teenagers?

The truth cannot be controversial.

A young woman who was supposed to dominate the sport -- she herself talked about playing in the Masters and winning green jackets -- is currently average at best in the world of high level women's golf. She has the endorsement cash and receives significant attention, but she just tied for 124th in a major.

You might not like what I posted from the NYT, but unless it is inaccurate, I don't want to hear about how it is "slanted."

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