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Matt_Ward

Wie Forget ...
« on: June 26, 2008, 06:58:12 PM »
I get a kick out of all the Wie supporters who disappeared better & faster than any Howard Hughes could.

Saw she shot 81 today in the 1st round of the Women's Open.

Enjoyed watching her but have to say that Team Wie pushed this gal far beyond what she could handle. I wish her well but have to say to all the Wie proponents you defended her beyond all elements of rationality. I see much less of the blame on her but more so on her dad and the entire entourage associated with her.

A pity indeed but there may be hope after she concludes her time at college.

We shall see.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2008, 07:14:51 PM »
Michelle Wie has the potential to be one of the saddest stories in golf history.  She is still young so her story has not yet been written.  The first two chapters, her amateur years and her first years as a  pro are worthy of a Greek tragedy.  Those responsible for her teen years, namely her parents, never allowed her to mature at a sensible rate.  I wish her well.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Chip Gaskins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2008, 07:31:39 PM »
shame on her mom and dad.  not her entourage, her mom and dad.

do you think they just say dollar signs?  or what, what would pose a parent to push their kid that hard?

not that i am writing her off, but what happens with her endorsement deals?  i have always wondered about deals like Duval's (and I really like Duval) and Wie's (not that it has happened yet) where a player signs at the top with Nike, Sony, BMW, etc and then falls off the earth...do they keep getting paid the premium for missing cuts?

Michael Blake

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2008, 07:33:45 PM »
I watched some it.

She had one bad hole all day and it led to a 9.  Pretty tricky green/hole location.


Rest of her round was fine.

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2008, 07:34:49 PM »
Fret not, for Michelle does not read from the heretical gospels of Matthew and (gnostic? doubting? ag-gnostic?) Thomas.

This is just Reel Two in the myth-building exercise, the spanner, the coked-up-Capriati-in-a-Miami-hotel / Seven-Lean-Years transitional phase.

Tommy for it to qualify as Greek tragedy the hero(ine) must remain unaware of the flaws that bring ruin.  The Big Wiesy is well aware -- didn't you read the Post this morning?

The caveat is that like Red China Stanford will mess up a person far worse than an intrusive parent -- although the two often form a seamless whole.  The good news is she can treat Stanford as a four-year holiday.  Lots of jocks do...

Sincerely,
#1 Wie Quisling (not same as a "Wieseling"!)

rjsimper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2008, 07:46:36 PM »
I watched some it.

She had one bad hole all day and it led to a 9.  Pretty tricky green/hole location.


Rest of her round was fine.

One 9 in an otherwise "fine" round does not an 81 make.


Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2008, 08:05:57 PM »
She was +3 for the rest of the round.

Michael Blake

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Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2008, 08:18:28 PM »
I watched some it.

She had one bad hole all day and it led to a 9.  Pretty tricky green/hole location.


Rest of her round was fine.

One 9 in an otherwise "fine" round does not an 81 make.



Ryan, I understand. 

Just trying to provide some insight to people who just look at her 81 and laugh at her.

I watched her on T.V.  One bad shot on that green led to another and another.  She had one horrible hole but was +3 the rest of the day, which is pretty good in a US Open.  Annika is +2, Petterson is +4.

She played well...except for one hole.  I guess most just see the 81. 

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2008, 08:25:41 PM »
She played well...except for one hole.  I guess most just see the 81. 

Most see the 81 because that was her score.

Take away Mickelson's 9 at the US Open and he finshed T4.

Except he didn't.
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2008, 08:31:04 PM »
I'm with Mr. Blake. A raw score doesn't tell you everything.

And I'll add:

The hole where she posted the 9 has one of the most diabolical greens I've ever seen.

Wie's will not be the last embarrassment there this week.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

John_Conley

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Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2008, 08:33:47 PM »
Wie's tale is one of high expectations leading to chronic disappointment.

She and her family certainly didn't do anything to help their cause by continuing to tee up against male professionals, but there's another matter.  Many people assumed - wrongly - that she would continue to improve from where she was at age 13-14.  She didn't.

She's not the only one.  Don't forget that Aree Song (Wongluekiet) also finished Top 10 in the Dinah at age 13.  She's not even in the field this week.

Matt, your post seems to imply that there was much ado about nothing.  She was, at the age of about 13 or 14, ranked #2 or #3 in the world.  I don't know that we're going to see that again.

She's 18.  I don't know what the future holds.  It will be interesting.

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2008, 08:42:35 PM »
Just looked at the scores.  A big congratulations to Martha Nause who shot her age today.  Impressive.

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2008, 08:46:45 PM »
Just looked at the scores.  A big congratulations to Martha Nause who shot her age today.  Impressive.


Huh?
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

rjsimper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2008, 09:30:58 PM »
Michelle Wie will still win 10 ladies majors and be in the Hall of Fame.

Just like she got hyped too fast, she's being written off too fast.

Would love to see it...but first would love to see her parents out of the picture before it happens so that nothing can possibly validate their poor decision-making with her career.

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2008, 09:48:18 PM »
Ryan, what were the poor decisions?

* not playing the junior circuit?
* going to college?
* not pushing the LPGA to be a member sooner?
* trying to play against men?
* taking endorsement money?
* working with Leadbetter?

I'm curious as to what you cite as the problem.  There is no one path.  Guys like Petr Korda and Ivan Lendl seem to think that incredibly intense golf - non-stop - at a young age is best for their daughters.  Aaron Krickstein's dad is being very aggressive with his granddaughters, but they've stopped short of moving to Bradenton and remain under his roof.  Others, who probably haven't peaked yet, are less serious in these teen  years and may blossom in their 20s.

It is very easy for you to say something was done wrong.  I haven't seen anyone show conclusively what 'right' is.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2008, 09:52:28 PM »
F

Tommy for it to qualify as Greek tragedy the hero(ine) must remain unaware of the flaws that bring ruin.  The Big Wiesy is well aware -- didn't you read the Post this morning?

 

Sincerely,
#1 Wie Quisling (not same as a "Wieseling"!)

Mark, she is a kid.  Can she really know? 
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

rjsimper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2008, 09:56:53 PM »
Ryan, what were the poor decisions?

* not playing the junior circuit?
* going to college?
* not pushing the LPGA to be a member sooner?
* trying to play against men?
* taking endorsement money?
* working with Leadbetter?

I'm curious as to what you cite as the problem.  There is no one path.  Guys like Petr Korda and Ivan Lendl seem to think that incredibly intense golf - non-stop - at a young age is best for their daughters.  Aaron Krickstein's dad is being very aggressive with his granddaughters, but they've stopped short of moving to Bradenton and remain under his roof.  Others, who probably haven't peaked yet, are less serious in these teen  years and may blossom in their 20s.

It is very easy for you to say something was done wrong.  I haven't seen anyone show conclusively what 'right' is.


This debate has come up countless times before on far more sites than just this one, and this needn't be yet another thread in which the same arguments are rehashed.

Needless to say, she's got more talent than perhaps anyone else out there, and as of right now, she's a failure in the context of her stated goals...while there may be no conclusive "right" way to do things, I do not believe you will find anyone arguing that where we're at right now is the result of sound strategy and responsible decision-making.

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2008, 09:58:33 PM »
Michelle Wie will still win 10 ladies majors and be in the Hall of Fame.

Just like she got hyped too fast, she's being written off too fast.

Shivas --

I'd love to see you be right about her, because I know you're right in principle.

But I don't think it's going to happen, unless she learns to putt. And does anyone ever *learn* to be a gifted putter?

They all strike the ball great. That's my overwhelming impression after watching two days of practice and one of competition at the Women's U.S. Open (or, as the USGA unfortunately calls it, the U.S. Women's Open).
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2008, 10:12:37 PM »
This debate has come up countless times before on far more sites than just this one, and this needn't be yet another thread in which the same arguments are rehashed.

Needless to say, she's got more talent than perhaps anyone else out there, and as of right now, she's a failure in the context of her stated goals...while there may be no conclusive "right" way to do things, I do not believe you will find anyone arguing that where we're at right now is the result of sound strategy and responsible decision-making.

So Ryan, despite the numerous discussions about Wie's myriad mistakes, you still can't say what those were?  Sure.  Makes sense.

You seem concerned about whether there was a sound strategy and responsible decision making.  I don't think it made sense for a girl that made it to the Round of 8 to worry about AJGA events like her contemporaries Creamer and Pressel, especially since she lives in Hawaii.  If I'm not mistaken, the period in question was before the USGA allowed amateurs to receive expenses from sponsors to travel to events.  The decision to eschew junior events for other things seems 'sound' to me.

The worst decision I saw was to continually worry about male professional events in 2006 and 2007.  Still, it wouldn't have mattered if she skipped all of them...she'd be in the same place today.

What I saw when I watched her about five years ago was not that unusual, really, if you looked at her physically.  Every high school has a few 9th grade girls that matured early.  There was no upside.  Contrast that to Thompson who the announcers said has grown 6" since her appearance in the US Open last year.

Dan's right about the quality of play.  I know every blade of grass on that course and I'm very impressed by what I watched today.  The scores are lower than I thought they'd be - at least 2 or 3 shots on average.  This doesn't bode well for Wie making Shiv's goal of multiple Majors.

Wie is an illustrative example that many girls lose their competitive edge as they get older, which is not the case with boys.  I wonder how many of these teenie queenies in the field will be playing at this level in six years.  Where are Aree and Naree?  I don't think Wie will be the only one who peaks young and fades.  Happens all the time in tennis.

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2008, 10:15:31 PM »
Tommy

Strictly on the technicalities, I would say her parents might play the tragic role. In that Post article she says the decision to play through injury last year were hers, which of course is totally self-serving, and not only that but I think until October 2007 she would have been a minor and a ward of her parents.  She's more like an unfortunate agent of their hubris / flaws -- cf Ryan's wish to make an example of her for all parents out there.

That said, all kids are guilty of hubris and last year's injury / humiliation (plus the Annika disrespecting) sure look like good candidates for hamartia.  So maybe Act 1 is a tragedy in, uh, one act.

But there ARE second acts in American life -- eat it, F Scott! -- and it takes little faith to see she has lost no talent.  Ducking out to college provides the necessary Wilderness Years to her life story. She will play a light schedule, fall out of the limelight.

It will come down to her work ethic, not her talent. 

I'm with Dave.  Golf is not played in the court of public opinion.  Her talent's no different than it's been; the vicissitudes of public opinion say far more about the nature of popular opinion than how many tournaments she will win.

Get back on the bandwagon while the best seats are still available -- to meld the NT with FASB accounting, it's a LIFO deal, the last in shall be the first out, or the last shall be first!

Mark

rjsimper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2008, 10:30:12 PM »
This debate has come up countless times before on far more sites than just this one, and this needn't be yet another thread in which the same arguments are rehashed.

Needless to say, she's got more talent than perhaps anyone else out there, and as of right now, she's a failure in the context of her stated goals...while there may be no conclusive "right" way to do things, I do not believe you will find anyone arguing that where we're at right now is the result of sound strategy and responsible decision-making.

So Ryan, despite the numerous discussions about Wie's myriad mistakes, you still can't say what those were?  Sure.  Makes sense.

You seem concerned about whether there was a sound strategy and responsible decision making.  I don't think it made sense for a girl that made it to the Round of 8 to worry about AJGA events like her contemporaries Creamer and Pressel, especially since she lives in Hawaii.  If I'm not mistaken, the period in question was before the USGA allowed amateurs to receive expenses from sponsors to travel to events.  The decision to eschew junior events for other things seems 'sound' to me.

The worst decision I saw was to continually worry about male professional events in 2006 and 2007.  Still, it wouldn't have mattered if she skipped all of them...she'd be in the same place today.

What I saw when I watched her about five years ago was not that unusual, really, if you looked at her physically.  Every high school has a few 9th grade girls that matured early.  There was no upside.  Contrast that to Thompson who the announcers said has grown 6" since her appearance in the US Open last year.

Dan's right about the quality of play.  I know every blade of grass on that course and I'm very impressed by what I watched today.  The scores are lower than I thought they'd be - at least 2 or 3 shots on average.  This doesn't bode well for Wie making Shiv's goal of multiple Majors.

Wie is an illustrative example that many girls lose their competitive edge as they get older, which is not the case with boys.  I wonder how many of these teenie queenies in the field will be playing at this level in six years.  Where are Aree and Naree?  I don't think Wie will be the only one who peaks young and fades.  Happens all the time in tennis.


I can tell you plenty of times where I think she made the mistakes, I just didn't see it necessary to do that YET AGAIN in this thread.  The arguments have been made before on hundreds of occasions within GCA alone...and I see little upside to spending my time doing so since you will likely respond with a "well, there's no proof that would have been better for her" which is true, so neither one of us can prove right or wrong in any scenario here.  What is there to gain?

The end of it all is this:  If a sound strategy is devised, and if it is followed, and if the player has the talent and mind and other necessary tools to be a success, it stands to reason that they will be successful.  If the player is not successful, there are 3 possible explanations: 1) they didn't have the chops, 2) an intervening factor came up...accident, physical malady...which does not include Wie's wrist issue, or 3) a poorly conceived strategy.

I started this whole journey as a huge Wie fan, and I watched and refreshed with baited breath as she tried to qualify at Canoe Brook. 

I believe she has the chops physically, I thought she might have the chops mentally, though there were times I strongly doubted it, like her decision to chip on the 18th hole of the Dinah Shore, so her failure to achieve any measure of success by her definition of it has to come down to poor planning/strategy, in my opinion.  And now, I think her noodle is shot...and this to me is not something that was there all along - it's something that developed by constantly losing, worrying about shooting 88, and witnessing all the media's messiah-ette predictions turn to ridicule columns overnight.

I agree that the mens professional thing was a joke, and would probably agree that it is the worst decision of them all.

By the way, didn't she withdraw from school? That to me seems like a terrible decision....either that she chose to withdraw in her first year or that she enrolled in the first place if she intended to withdraw.

Not playing the junior circuit to me is a big deal - I subscribe to the theory of winning breeds winning...especially for someone whose mental game is developing in a sport that is so mental.

This response is out of a logical order and I know that, but as I go along I find that I have many things to say on the subject but wonder if it's even worth saying because you or anyone else could say "How can you prove that?" and immediately my argument is underwater...just like I can say that about you...how can you prove that had she not played in the mens circuit that she'd be in exactly the same place today?  If you believe the wrist had a major part in her downfall, were she not playing mens events wouldn't she not have injured it in the first place?  I recall that it was in a mens event that she claims she first hurt it though I could be mistaken.

As I read your post again, I am not even sure what your position is on the whole topic??  Can you please state your position on Michelle Wie, her parents, and the state of her career?

Les Cordes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2008, 10:35:50 PM »
incidentally...david duval was not that old when he totally and inexpicably faded out of the picture...high level professional performance is not a given..or as my old pro used to say..."...never hang around bad putters..."...the psychology of sports...particularly golf....can be tenuous..

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2008, 10:41:57 PM »
Ryan, I'm not sure of her school status.  If she is out of school I wonder if it is time off to free up time for golf or if she has dropped out.

My position on Wie?  Same as it has always been.  I don't think we'll see another so young do so well.  Six Top 5 finishes in Majors with just 10 starts over a three season period.  Wow.  From a high schooler.  That doesn't count the US Open she led after 54 holes before closing poorly.

Like so many, our media builds them up to tear them down.  To me the story was the success of a young girl in golf - no more no less.  At age 15 there was not another in the whole world her age, boy or girl, that could play with her.  Her game held up favorably to the best college men.

Review the accomplishments and they are hard to fathom.

* Won a pro event in Hawaii by 13 or 14 shots over LPGA player Cindy Rarick
* Won USAPL at age 13
* Made Round of 8 in men's APL
* High finish after high finish in LPGA events/Majors
* Beat a college-age Curtis Cup future US Open champ in match play at age 12
* Almost made the cut in the Sony

Wow.  Truly astounding.

Some naysayers said they wanted to wait to see what she did when she was older.  Huh?  She could fall off the map or win everything and it doesn't change how incredible all that stuff is.  We won't see it again.

rjsimper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2008, 10:52:39 PM »
I don't disagree with you on anything you've said...

On the flipside, if her record had said

8 AJGA victories
3 US Girls Junior championships
1 US Womens Am
Stanford golf team captain and Pac 10 or National player of the year as a Freshman

I'd still be impressed, and in my opinion she'd be in a better position to continue with her momentum.

The Stanford issue, I recall, is that she withdrew to focus on her game...which again, is fine, but if that was the master plan, why enroll in the first place? 

I've never been a naysayer about her accomplishments to date, but I do believe she's done more "in spite of" than she has "because of" - just my opinion.

I believe if she does end up falling off the face of the golf planet...or rather, staying off the face of it...that her parents bear a good deal of responsibility for that.  Again, I hope she registers to vote, gets her own place, sees her parents on holidays and when her first kid is born, and conquers the world.


jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2008, 10:56:33 PM »
Michelle Wie will still win 10 ladies majors and be in the Hall of Fame.

Just like she got hyped too fast, she's being written off too fast.

Shivas,
You're absolutely right.
Whether she wins another major or not-truer words were never spoken.
How many of you Wie armchair quaterbacks were a success at ANYTHING at 18 (or 19) years old?
Does that make your parents dopes?

She's done things people only dream of, and is now getting a near normal college experience, and may still have a great golf career (or maybe she puts her college degree to use and does something else)

Find another target to hate.
A few of us Michelle Wie supporters are still out there-the same as I would support any other 18 year trying to figure out her place in life.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

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