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Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #575 on: August 21, 2008, 12:02:55 PM »
I've said it before and I'll say it again...

I never would have thought one girl could have gotten so many people's knickers in a twist.  18 pages and counting. Just don't see what the big deal is and the over-analysis of it all.

In the end, she got paid, she got over on the system and you didn't.  Is there really any more to all of this than that??  ;D

I might like to get over on her ;D :-*

Hey you naughty boy, your getting married pretty quick here. You shouldn't be saying things like that unless your getting cold feet!  ;D

John Moore II

Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #576 on: August 21, 2008, 12:03:55 PM »
An honest question...

Can anyone explain how the LPGA could let Michelle attend LPGA Tour School and QUALIFY for her Tour card if she wouldn't be allowed to use it and play on tour?



The PGA Tour did it to Ty Tryon, and I'd argue it has cost him greatly.

Damn nice couple of posts, Glenn.

Yes, Ty Tryon is pretty much done these days. Hopefully that will not happen to Wie.

Glenn-Its most likely harder to finish top 5 at a Womens Open than to win a womens Am. But guess what...the winner of the Am is a WINNER, the 5th place finisher in the Womens Open (without any other wins) is simply a talented loser. I'd rather have a winner on my side.


Don't you think it's a bit much to call someone who finishes 5th in a major a loser? Do you really believe top 5s don't mean anything?

Depends. Ricky Bobby said "If you ain't first, you're last" ;D


Kalen--I can still THINK about things like that. It ain't no crime
« Last Edit: August 21, 2008, 12:07:44 PM by J. Kenneth Moore »

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #577 on: August 21, 2008, 12:20:23 PM »
While we can all relate to the wisdom of Ricky Bobby, I think that for the development of a golfer, top 5s in majors have to help quite a bit.

I haven't given up on Ty Tryon, btw. Many gave up on Justin Rose after all those missed cuts and he seems to be doing okay. Tom Lehman and Zack Johnson had to survive on mini tours for a good while and now they're major winners.

Golf is unique among sports in that there are many different paths to success, much as there are many different definitions of success.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #578 on: August 21, 2008, 12:21:41 PM »
Chris, Ken:

Wake up folks.

The answer is a simple one -- the LPGA gave Michelle entrance to their tour's championship when she was an amateur (pressure from McDonald's sure speeded things along) -- they could have done the same thing with tour membership irrespective of her age at that time.

Sure they could have, but there's nothing in their other actions to suggest they would have.

If anything -- the LPGA brass is in better position now because the Michelle Wie aura has been diminished because of her recent poor play and the inane thinking that Team Wie (namely her father) have operated during that time frame.

FWIW, at least one person who knows the family says it isn't dad, it's mom. And recent statements by her and her dad sound like she's a stubborn teenager who is ignoring her adult advisors. After all, she's 18, and is the primary income in the family....

Ken,

Your second hand information is far better then Matt Ward's sleezy nth hand speculation.

I really don't know why we even pay attention to Matt here. His course review talent is next to non-existant, because it is so one dimensional. His benefactors obviously steer him wrong and reward him for all the wrong things. He has shown a complete inability to get his stuff published in any meaningful publication. So why do we give him the time of day?

I say that until he gets to a level of say course review editor for Golf Magazine, that he just isnt' worth paying attention to. He is way over hyped.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jay Flemma

Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #579 on: August 21, 2008, 01:02:08 PM »
Jay, mearly pointing out to those that insist the early hype wasn't worthy, that they are wrong...also, to those that continue to insist she needs to learn how to win, that SHE DID win and she did it often...

All you have to do Jay is actually look at her playing record....

I did. SHE HAS WON NOTHING SINCE THE VAUNTED WOMEN'S MID-AMATEUR PUBLIC LINKS in 2003.  Golf and sports in general are about winning, not breaking barriers or making buzz.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #580 on: August 21, 2008, 01:21:32 PM »
Golf and sports in general are about winning...

I know quite a few folks who would disagree with this, myself among them.

She's 18 (19 now? can't remember), show some patience. :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #581 on: August 21, 2008, 01:33:07 PM »
I know quite a few folks who would disagree with this, myself among them.

She's 18 (19 now? can't remember), show some patience. :)

Like all those folks who are coming home from China with those shiny silver things?

FWIW, she turns 19 in October.

Ken
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #582 on: August 21, 2008, 01:36:59 PM »
Ken--See my response to Chris Brauner, reply #596, I answered that question then.

The LPGA has been pretty firm in its commitment to "protecting" teenagers, so I don't think there's any chance that she'd have been given a pass before she graduated high school.

They refused Creamer, Pressel and the Wonglukiets, Wie wasn't going to break that ground.

Ken

Ken,

This is factually wrong. Creamer and Aree Wonglukiet were granted membership before turning 18. I'm pretty sure Naree didn't apply at the same time. It was only Pressel that was denied.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Matt_Ward

Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #583 on: August 21, 2008, 01:40:24 PM »
JES II, Ken:

Gents, wake up to some clear realities.

LPGA Commissioner Bivens would not want to be seen by the rank-and-file players to be cowtowing beyond what was obviously done in other clear instances (e.g. the extension of an exemption as an amateur to the LPGA Championship, is but just one clear example).

No doubt the people running the LPGA Tour wanted Wie from early on but the repercussions of looking like a second fiddle (should she could decline which was likely) or if she had accepted by having to knuckle under to any demands Team Wie would have made regarding such membership would have caused plenty of fallout from a host of directions.

There was plenty of envy / jealousy to start with concerning Wie's early successes and how the other players got pushed aside. Those feelings simply intensified with all the falling overthemselves responses and actions the LPGA Tour has done with Michelle. You can see the escalation of those comments from a host of players starting with Annika and working themselves through other top tier competitors.

Ken:

Irrespective of whether it's mom, dad, Michelle or IMG -- the simple fact is that the ultimate objective of Team Wie was to play the free-lance card -- cherry pick off events (whether men or women) and go from there. The small problem arose when Michelle's play tailed off dramatically. There's still marquee value for her but she needs to reignite the flames with some victories. You can market hype for quite some time -- but ultimately wins are needed to show that the hype is not some PR / Mktg campaign alone.

LPGA membership was not the first card of choice for Team Wie. It was nothing more than a back-up option but now that original assessment has changed because without it Michelle Wie is more oddity than stellar golfer.


Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #584 on: August 21, 2008, 02:01:12 PM »
Ken--See my response to Chris Brauner, reply #596, I answered that question then.

The LPGA has been pretty firm in its commitment to "protecting" teenagers, so I don't think there's any chance that she'd have been given a pass before she graduated high school.

They refused Creamer, Pressel and the Wonglukiets, Wie wasn't going to break that ground.

Ken

Ken,

This is factually wrong. Creamer and Aree Wonglukiet were granted membership before turning 18. I'm pretty sure Naree didn't apply at the same time. It was only Pressel that was denied.

I am correct. They couldn't play until they graduated high school. They weren't 18 yet, so they had to get an exemption.

Ken
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #585 on: August 21, 2008, 02:04:25 PM »
Ken,

We can do the research, but I am sure both applied and were granted membership before they turned 18. If fact, Creamer used her membership to win her first title before she graduated HS.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Phil_the_Author

Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #586 on: August 21, 2008, 02:10:20 PM »
Garland,

While you are doing the research on Creamer and Aree Wonglukiet, expand it and see if any young lady under 18 has been to LPGA Tour Qualifying School and won her card and then NOT allowed to play...

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #587 on: August 21, 2008, 02:10:56 PM »
The small problem arose when Michelle's play tailed off dramatically.

It wasn't a small problem, it was a huge problem. And her play didn't "tail off," it disappeared--when she injured both of her wrists.

The fact that she continued to play against the advice of her family and coach was an even bigger problem.

The net result is that she kicked away whatever good will her remarkable performance on the 2006 LPGA Tour may have created.  (Lest you overlook it, she was ~20th on the money list playing in 8 events.)
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #588 on: August 21, 2008, 02:12:10 PM »
A quick check of Paula's bio on LPGA.com confirms she won before graduating.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

John Moore II

Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #589 on: August 21, 2008, 02:13:48 PM »
Ken,

We can do the research, but I am sure both applied and were granted membership before they turned 18. If fact, Creamer used her membership to win her first title before she graduated HS.


I just looked, Paula's rookie year was 2005, her first year of membership. She was born in 1986, so 2005 puts her being 18 at the beginning of the year. The others I am not sure about. Naree Song (Wongluekiet) joined the tour in 2004, and was also born in 1986, so she MAY have been 17 when she joined, depending on birthdays and the date she joined.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #590 on: August 21, 2008, 02:14:35 PM »
Irrespective of whether it's mom, dad, Michelle or IMG -- the simple fact is that the ultimate objective of Team Wie was to play the free-lance card -- cherry pick off events (whether men or women) and go from there.

Imagine that, someone choosing to make her own choices, with the temerity to not follow the Matt Ward Plan For Golf Success - and to make gobs of money on top of it! Boggles the mind.

Makes me like her that much more...

Ken,

We can do the research, but I am sure both applied and were granted membership before they turned 18. If fact, Creamer used her membership to win her first title before she graduated HS.


Not that it really matters, but I think you're arguing apples and oranges. I think Paula was 18 and on a sponsor exemption for her first win, I think the others applied for early entry and were denied at age 16 and accepted at 17. I think Ken was speculating that Wie wouldn't have been accepted at 16, and I think he's guessing right.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

John Moore II

Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #591 on: August 21, 2008, 02:16:52 PM »
A quick check of Paula's bio on LPGA.com confirms she won before graduating.
Indeed she did, but she was all ready 18.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #592 on: August 21, 2008, 02:18:40 PM »
Aree's biography says Ty Votaw granted her early membership to the tour.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #593 on: August 21, 2008, 02:21:08 PM »
Ken,

We can do the research, but I am sure both applied and were granted membership before they turned 18. If fact, Creamer used her membership to win her first title before she graduated HS.


I was wrong.  Creamer was 18 when she went to Q school in 2004. She was 18 when she won the Sybase in 2005, but hadn't graduated yet.

Aree was given an exemption at age 17 years three months, but didn't play until the following season, after she had graduated high school.

By the time Pressel turned pro, the LPGA had firmed up its requirements, and she was allowed to go to Q school while 17. She didn't join the tour full-time until the following spring after she graduated.

Ken
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #594 on: August 21, 2008, 02:23:50 PM »
Even though she didn't play full time until graduation, the following reports on Morgan being given an age exception and membership while 17.
http://www.engolfed.com/blog/2005/12/morgan-pressel-grabs-lpga-tour-membership-and-callaway-endorsement/

Edit: I remembered 2, I guess I just didn't remember which two. ;)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #595 on: August 21, 2008, 02:25:46 PM »
Garland,

While you are doing the research on Creamer and Aree Wonglukiet, expand it and see if any young lady under 18 has been to LPGA Tour Qualifying School and won her card and then NOT allowed to play...

That may be Morgan, who was denied on her first application.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #596 on: August 21, 2008, 02:26:25 PM »
Even though she didn't play full time until graduation, the following reports on Morgan being given an age exception and membership while 17.
http://www.engolfed.com/blog/2005/12/morgan-pressel-grabs-lpga-tour-membership-and-callaway-endorsement/

That's the LPGA's position. Exemptions can be granted to Q school, provided they'll be out of high school by the time the next season is underway.

In Pressel's case, there was some sort of dustup about playing before graduation, and not being allowed to count the earnings.

That's what muy original comment to Matt was. She wasn't, IMHO, going to get an exemption at age 16. They would have given her one for 2007, if she'd asked--because she was going to be out of HS.

But it would have been irrelevant, as she hurt her wrists in the 2005-2006 off season and didn't start playing halfway well until about a month ago.

Ken

K
« Last Edit: August 21, 2008, 02:29:20 PM by kmoum »
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #597 on: August 21, 2008, 05:44:51 PM »
...But truthfully, do you think Wie was ever really the number 3 player in the world? Really...

Makes it hard to give credibility to your arguments in this discussion when you don't know things like this. It sounds like you are blindly chanting the Matt Ward mantra, "but she has only won the WAPL".

Clearly you don't know that she was ranked #1 in the world in an even more meaningful ranking. That means in her mid teens she played on the LPGA tour better than Annika, Lorena, and all the rest.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

John Moore II

Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #598 on: August 21, 2008, 05:49:42 PM »
...But truthfully, do you think Wie was ever really the number 3 player in the world? Really...

Makes it hard to give credibility to your arguments in this discussion when you don't know things like this. It sounds like you are blindly chanting the Matt Ward mantra, "but she has only won the WAPL".

Clearly you don't know that she was ranked #1 in the world in an even more meaningful ranking. That means in her mid teens she played on the LPGA tour better than Annika, Lorena, and all the rest.


And what ranking is that where she was ranked #1? I do not recall that.

I remember clearly when the Womens World Ranking came out and Wie was #3, I recall Annika being #1, but can't off hand remember who was 2. My question is, do you really think that ranking was accurate? I do not. She had played in very few events, and was even taken off the ranking due to lack of participation for a time.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2008, 05:58:25 PM by J. Kenneth Moore »

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wie Forget ...
« Reply #599 on: August 21, 2008, 06:05:02 PM »
...But truthfully, do you think Wie was ever really the number 3 player in the world? Really...

Makes it hard to give credibility to your arguments in this discussion when you don't know things like this. It sounds like you are blindly chanting the Matt Ward mantra, "but she has only won the WAPL".

Clearly you don't know that she was ranked #1 in the world in an even more meaningful ranking. That means in her mid teens she played on the LPGA tour better than Annika, Lorena, and all the rest.


And what ranking is that where she was ranked #1? I do not recall that.

I remember clearly when the Womens World Ranking came out and Wie was #3, I recall Annika being #1, but can't off hand remember who was 2. My question is, do you really think that ranking was accurate? I do not. She had played in very few events, and was even taken off the ranking due to lack of participation for a time.

Because Wie played so few events, her Women's World Ranking was undervalued, not overvalued.
When you base the ranking on only the events the player has played she comes out higher. One individual's ranking system does just that (I forget his name). You take all the evens that Wie played in. You copare her results against each other player that played thoes events. Then you rank by how each player did relative to each other player in those events they played in common. At one time Wie came out on top in this comparison.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

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