[JohnV]

V -

Nice summary.

If I were truly concerned that I might forget to sign, is there anything in the rules that prevents me from, on the first tee, grabbing my empty scorecard out of my marker's hand, signing it, and giving it back to him?

Nothing what so ever.  As a marker, I usually sign the card when I'm given it so that I don't forget and screw my fellow competitor.  If there is some reason I don't want to sign it later (rules dispute), I can always cross out or erase my signature.

[Cabell Ackerly]

Kalen,
Under your 2-stroke penalty proposition, how long does the player have until he/she can come back to the tent to sign their card? What if they are 5 seconds late? Where do you draw the line?

The more I think about this, the more I actually think that the DQ may not have been a strong enough penalty in this case. Don't forget that "team Wie" may have cheated. Someone in her camp knew the penalty was automatic DQ for what Michelle had done, yet they let her keep playing anyway.That's pretty significant in my mind...

[George Pazin]

I wish to add no new rules, just to amend the current one.  Given em a two stroke penalty if they violate the tent rule, but don't DQ em.  Thats simplicity at is finest!! 

Until the next seemingly silly infraction gets someone DQ'd.

Slippery slopes, my friend.

 

[JohnV]

The rules of golf require the player to sign a scorecard. The rules of golf do not require walking scorekeepers, galleries, and a television audience

Sarge, an organization can choose whether or not they want to follow the Rules of Golf.  This is Dave's point about O'Neill's pebble yesterday.  "Kenny, I've got a rock in front of my ball."  The Rules of Golf don't allow that.  The bunker is a hazard.

NASCAR could adopt signed scorecards attesting laps.  Instead, they keep watching to figure out what happens.  The PGA Tour certainly has enough people following what is going on to eschew the cards if they want to, at least on the weekend.

And Kalen, JVB is hard-wired not to think about things like that.  Probably a good trait for a rules official, but I wouldn't look for him to be at the fore of driving a rules change.

John,  I think you'd find that I'm more than willing to see rules changes happen.  I'm will be hard-nosed about the current rule under discussion because we need to have an exact score in stroke play and we need to know it is correct.

I have little faith in walking scorers or others keeping track of the scores because I see them make enough mistakes.  I also have little faith that the marker will get the score correct because of the number of corrections I see at the scoring table every week.  In the end, the only person who knows what a player scored is the player and therefore she must be the one responsible for that score and must somehow state that it is correct.  Signing the card is the way of saying that.

Dave,

Your rule change might work, but again, the only way we have to know that it is correct is when the player has verified it.  And the only way to guarantee that verification is to require the signature.  Once they sign it and turn it in, they have to live with it.

You guys keep saying that none of us have convinced you why the penalty should be so severe.  Well, none of you have convinced me why it is so hard to have to remember to sign the card.

[JohnV]

John, they don't.  There are many addendums.  The "no room key" clause.  Pick, clean, and cheat.  I'm sure someone else can cite others.  Watch a replay of McNeill in the bunker on 18 yesterday and you'll see him tell Duke he's taking a rock out.  All okay.  And clearly not in the Rules of Golf.

"No Room Key" clause was removed in either 2000 or 2004.  The USGA and R&A felt it was too restrictive.

Stones in bunker is clearly in the Rules of Golf.  The local rules in Appendicies are part of the Rules of Golf.  The reason they are local rules is that they should only be used when needed or because the USGA and R&A haven't agreed that they should be the standard rule, but have no real problem with their use by a Committee that wants to use them.

The R&A doesn't like the 5-minute late to the tee or the embedded ball through the green (remember Norman's plugged ball during the Open).  The USGA doesn't like stones in bunkers, so they remain local rules or conditions of the competition.  Others such as lift, clean and place or the "one-ball" rule are there because they should only be used as needed.

[Bob_Huntley]

I would have thought that a person who could gain admittance to Stanford would have a modicum of intelligence.

Miss Wie has been playing on the national stage for some time now and has signed a card in every stroke play event she has entered. It is passing strange that she forgot to sign this one.

What with not knowing the rules, missing signatures and a host of miscues I wonder if this is a sublimable ploy to divorce her parents?

Bob

[John_Conley]

Bob, I've had the same thoughts.  She's obviously no dummy, yet she's done some dumb things.  As for mom and dad, I wonder if she has a self-destructive gene like John Daly that will continue to prevent her from every accomplishing more.  Beyond strange is a great way to describe this.  On a day she moved to about 10 under through two rounds.  And then follows it up with another 7 under or so, not realizing the Committee was about to boot her.

Sports Illustrated is doing one of their "Where are they now?" features from 1968, 78, 88, and 98.  One of the 98s is Anna.  She comes across as incredibly well-adjusted at age 27.  Listening to Kournikova on Kournikova could just as easily be Kournikova on Wie.

[MargaretC]

Gentlemen:

I've mentioned on other posts that each of our 6 children play golf (in varying degrees) and that learning the rules of golf is, in our opinion, equal to learning the mechanics of the game (my husband initiated this because, as a long-time golfer, he can't stand being around rude golfers who don't even know the basic rules of golf).

Until a few minutes ago, I was unaware that Jack showed this thread to our oldest son (age 14) and Andrew's comment regarding the DQ penalty was,

"Da-ad, C'mon, of course it's a DQ!  What else could it be?  Signing the card is for the WHOOOLE round, not just ONE HOLE!!!!!!"

What's the expression?  Out of the mouths of babes...

I treasure moments like these!  Helps me forget for a nanosecond all of the other 14-year-old behaviors that are etching lines on my heretofore spotless face.  Hope this euphoria stays with me long enough to walk-in and out of his bedroom without uttering word.      

[Garland Bayley]

Yes Bob, and all those Ph.D.s would be thought to have a modicum of intelligence, but funny thing is they seem to have begat the term absent-minded professor.

[John_Conley]

Remember this one...

Ani Gulugian, 16, of Irvine, Calif., was volunteering as a standard bearer during the 2005 Samsung Invitational, and was a first-hand witness to the controversial drop that resulted in Michelle Wie’s disqualification from her first professional event.

[JohnV]

MargaretC,

Love that story. 

Dave, Your rule seems to allow the correction of a score on the card that is too high.  Is that correct?

[Craig Sweet]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't I seen a television in these "scorers tents" tuned to the tournament?  What other distractions are there in these "scorers areas"?

[JohnV]

Craig,

Yes, they do frequently have a TV in there.  Perhaps they shouldn't as it is a potential distraction.  In general the number of distractions should be minimized.  The only people who are usually alllowed in there are the players, the caddies and the walking scorers along with the officials who man the area.  At a US Open, the walking rules official is also in there.

[JohnV]

Yes.  I gather you're going to tell me that's unfair to the field because they could tee off the next day without knowing where they stand and guy who is leading by 6 could turn in a score that indicates that he's leading by 1 or behind, in order to goad other players into playing differently?

Fine.  Any wrong scores.   A player has an obligation to the field to tell the field what his score is. 

Actually I was more concerned with the cut than players knowing where they stood, but lets say the player has to live with what is on the card.

Also, should the marker be required to sign the card or can we let them get away also?

[Craig Sweet]

Interesting that some claim to KNOW what "Team Wie" knew....how is it that some people on GCA have the ability to know the thoughts of others?  I don't get it...

None of us knows what went on in the scorers area...Wie may very well have checked her score for accuracy, signed/attested her competitors card, got distracted and then walked out before signing hers...we do not know.

There is no question that Wie "made" an "infraction"....however, the penalty for this infraction....leaving the scorers area without signing your score card....is excessive in my opinion and in the large scope of infractions seems pretty minor to me.....especially when one later returns to the scorers area and signs their card...and again, I question why there apparently was no LPGA official in this scorers area.  Isn't this one of the most important areas to have an official?  Why is something as important as this left to what appears to be not so well trained volunteers?

[Garland Bayley]

MargaretC,

At what point did Michelle indicate anything other than the rules are the rules and they must be followed? Your story contributes to this thread only if you are trying to say that even your 14 year old knows better than Michelle, which as far as I have seen he doesn't.

[MargaretC]

MargaretC,

Love that story. 

John:

Trust me, there will be a post script to this story.  No idea when, but experience tells me...

One of the funny things about having 6 kids is that, at times, it's like being in an echo-chamber.  The younger ones will parrot the words spoken by the older sib -- especially if the older sib was praised or got a laugh.  Jack relayed his conversation with Andrew while all of us were having lunch.  After I said, "Way to go, good thinking, Drew!"  The little ones piped-in and I heard a chorus of, "...what else could it be?  It was for the WHOOOLE round..."  I'm sure one of them will hear some poor unsuspecting adult comment on this situation with Michelle Wie and provide unsolicited commentary.  I just pray that it is someone we know with a sense of humor.  

Meg

[MargaretC]

MargaretC,

At what point did Michelle indicate anything other than the rules are the rules and they must be followed? Your story contributes to this thread only if you are trying to say that even your 14 year old knows better than Michelle, which as far as I have seen he doesn't.

I'm sorry, Garland, that wasn't the point.  In reading the posts on this thread, Andrew's comments were directed to the comments that a DQ penalty is too severe.  In his mind, the penalty must be DQ because in signing the card, the golfer attests to the whole round of golf.

[JohnV]

The focus here should be on getting it right, not "gotcha traps", in my view.

We agree here.  The question is how to we guarantee it is correct?  To me the way we do that is by requiring the two people involved to attest to its correctness.  That is done by signing the card.  Fail to sign it and it isn't attested.  The fact that you consider failing get the two signatures on the card and putting that responsibility on the player to be a "gotcha trap" is where our basic disagreement starts.

Definition #1 of Attest in Webster:  to affirm to be true or genuine; specifically : to authenticate by signing as a witness

I'll conclude my postings on this subject with a few quotes from The Principles behind the Rules of Golf by Richard Tufts.

It should be noted … that in stroke play the Rules are devised to protect the interests of the absent competitors in the field without relying upon a fellow-competitor to do so.
Nevertheless, it is of course presumed that an alert and fair minded fellow-competitor will protect the interests of the absent competitors by requiring the player to play in accordance with the Rules.  If, in addition to being a fellow-competitor, he also happens to be a marker for the player, when he signs the player’s card the marker thereby certifies that the score has been made in accordance with the Rules of Golf.

it must be admitted that at times the penalties appear to be unduly severe.  It is impossible to provide a completely graduated scale of penalties … the penalty applied to each particular rule must be specific and adequate at least to match the maximum advantage which the player is likely to receive.  The penalties cannot be expected, nor are they intended to exactly offset the advantage gained from the violation.

The most common use of the disqualification penalty occurs in stroke play in connection with the return of incorrect scores.  If a lower score is returned with the deliberate intention of cheating, the player is guilty of dishonorable conduct of the most flagrant character, but wrong scores are seldom of this sort and are usually due to the gross carelessness of the golfer in properly checking his score.  Since the posting of an incorrect score could, by publication of incorrect information, affect the play of other competitors in the field and since it is impractical under the Rules to distinguish between the intentional return of a lower score and the careless commission, the penalty of disqualification must be standard.

No competition can be successfully conducted without cooperation between the Committee and the competitors.  Committees are especially prone to be careless in publishing complete information covering the conditions under which the event is to be conducted. …  The player must advise himself with respect to all the conditions published by the Committee, find out about his handicap, be on time at the first tee and in stroke play check and return a correct score card for himself and his fellow-competitor, if he be his marker.

One of the saddest situations in golf concerns the all too frequent case in which a competitor in stroke play has inadvertently signed and returned an incorrect score card.  …  It is almost never a question of dishonesty – just plain carelessness.  Unhappily there is no help the Committee or the Rules of Golf can offer.  The correct score must be had and the contestant alone must be responsible for returning it.  Perhaps some brilliant psychologist will some day be able to explain why a golfer will take days to practice for and got to a tournament and then certify the results of all these efforts without spending sixty additional seconds to check his card.

[Garland Bayley]

Gottcha MargaretC

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[MargaretC]

Gottcha MargaretC

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Absolutely NO apology necessary, Garland.  This thread has ONLY covered a million topics from the incident, the LPGA, the rules of golf, the psychological dynamics of the Wie family, severity of penalties, walking scorers, TVs in the scoring tent, etc.  This thread has a healthy case of ADHD...   

Meg

[MargaretC]

The focus here should be on getting it right, noattested.  The fact that you consider failing get the two signatures on the t "gotcha traps", in my view.

We agree here.  The question is how to we guarantee it is correct?  To me the way we do that is by requiring the two people involved to attest to its correctness.  That is done by signing the card.  Fail to sign it and it isn't card and putting that responsibility on the player to be a "gotcha trap" is where our basic disagreement starts.

Definition #1 of Attest in Webster:  to affirm to be true or genuine; specifically : to authenticate by signing as a witness

I'll conclude my postings on this subject with a few quotes from The Principles behind the Rules of Golf by Richard Tufts.

Great post, John!  My next web site is Amazon.com to get the book.  Thanks!

Meg

[John_Cullum]

Mararet

Good luck finding Tuft's Book. You may as well search for the holy grail

[Mike Mosely]

Here's my question.  what kind of professional golfer forgets to sign the scorecard? What kind of a professional fails to sign for a 65?

[Pete_Pittock]

For those of you that are advocating a 2-stroke penalty, please comment on this possibility.
Tiger Woods has a ten stroke lead after 54 holes in the US Open and forgets to sign the card OR  Joe Blytzvyk is in second place in the same tournament with eight players within two shots of him. Joe forgets to sign the card. Are the ramifications of the respective two-stroke penalties fair and just?

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