News:

This discussion group is best enjoyed using Google Chrome, Firefox or Safari.


Thomas MacWood

Great Lakes 1913
« on: June 24, 2008, 11:10:16 PM »
What were the best courses in the Great Lakes region in 1913 - from Duluth to Montreal, including Ontario, Quebec and Upstate NY?
« Last Edit: June 24, 2008, 11:17:29 PM by Tom MacWood »

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Lakes 1913
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2008, 12:19:28 AM »
I believe that the current Toronto Golf Club course that was designed by Colt was opened by the autumn of 1912 would qualify.  I am not sure of which of the Montreal courses would have been around in 1913 but there would have been a few. 

I am not aware of any other courses here in Toronto that still exist from that era, nor of any other courses in Ontario that would have been considered to be excellent and that is pretty much all of the northern half of the region.  Ian Andrew would likely know - Ian are you out there?

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Lakes 1913
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2008, 12:38:32 AM »
Royal Montreal - Dixie (Dunn)
Lambton
Hamilton (Colt)
Royal Ottawa (Bendelow/Park)
Rosedale (Bendelow)
Scarboro (Tillinghast)

Thomas MacWood

Re: Great Lakes 1913
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2008, 07:00:28 AM »
When Vardon made his tour of N.America in 1913 he thought the best three courses he saw were Toronto, CC of Detroit and Mayfield. That is probably a good starting point.

Wayne
I'm just looking for good to very good at this point. Courses that could host a Canadian Open or Western Open or with some architectural merit. We may have to strengthen our criteria if it gets unweildy.

Sean
I don't believe Tilly or Willie Park had done any design work in Canada by 1913. Wasn't Hamilton opened in 1914?

Toronto - 1912 Colt

CC of Detroit - 1911 Colt

Mayfield - 1911 Barker/Way

Oakwood (Cleveland) - 1905 Boggs, 1913 Bendelow

Chicago GC - 1895 Macdonald/Whigham/J.Foulis, 1908-10 D.Foulis/Macdonald

Old Elm - 1913 Colt

Ravisloe - 1902 J.Foulis/R.Foulis, 1910 Watson

Beverly - 1908 G.O'Neil

Skokie - 1904 Bendelow, 1910 Barker

Westmoreland - 1912 Watson

Midlothian - 1898 Tweedie

Glen View - 1897 Tweedie

Homewood (Flossmoor) - 1989 Tweedie

Minikahda - 1898 J.Foulis/R.Foulis, 1906 Watson

Interlachen - 1910 Watson

Royal Montreal - ? Dunn, 1913 Colt

Kanawaki - 1913 Murray

Royal Ottawa - ? Bendelow

Rosedale - 1895 Bendelow

Lambton - 1902 Cummings

Mississauga - 1905 Cummings

Scarboro - 1913 Cummings

CC of Buffalo - ?

Lake Geneva - 1897 R.Foulis
« Last Edit: June 25, 2008, 11:40:46 PM by Tom MacWood »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Lakes 1913
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2008, 01:15:42 PM »
Tom:
I suspect given the date, much of the Canadian side will be dominated by
George Cumming -

Summit
Lambton
St. Thomas
Sault Ste. Marie
Scarboro (excuse the premature Tillie reference)
Mississauga
Brantford

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Lakes 1913
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2008, 01:57:19 PM »
The original Country Club of Buffalo, which held the 1912 US Open

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Lakes 1913
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2008, 02:59:15 PM »
In the Chicago area, these should be included:

Skokie - 1905 Bendelow
Exmoor - 1901(?) Tweedie/Leslie
Onwentsia - 1898 J/R. Foulis/Whigham/Tweedie
Lake Geneva CC (WI) - 1897 R. Foulis
Flossmoor - Tweedie

John Foley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Lakes 1913
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2008, 03:57:04 PM »
From UNY it was pretty bleak. Besides Dan's note of CC of Buff - not sure exactly what would have cnsidered great.

The original Oak Hill and CCof Roch courses we're not very good. Much improved after Ross came in for their new versions..

Travis did Yahnundasis in 1924 so that wasn't one.
Integrity in the moment of choice

Thomas MacWood

Re: Great Lakes 1913
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2008, 09:00:30 PM »
John
What do you not about Wanakah? It got some good press when it was opened around 1911 or 1912?

Toronto - 1912 Colt

CC of Detroit - 1911 Colt

Detroit GC - 1898 Way

Mayfield - 1911 Barker/Way

Oakwood (Cleveland) - 1905 Boggs, 1913 Bendelow

Euclid - 1901 Way, 1906 Way/Borton

Youngstown - 1911 Barker

Chicago GC - 1895 Macdonald/Whigham/Forgan, 1908-10 D.Foulis/Macdonald

Onwentsia - 1896 J.Foulis/R.Foulis, 1898 Tweedie/Whigham/Foulis/Foulis

Old Elm - 1913 Colt

Ravisloe - 1902 J.Foulis/R.Foulis, 1910 Watson

Beverly - 1908 G.O'Neil

Skokie - 1904 Bendelow, 1910 Barker

Westmoreland - 1912 Watson

Midlothian - 1898 Tweedie

Glen View - 1897 Tweedie

Homewood (Flossmoor) - 1989 Tweedie

Minikahda - 1898 J.Foulis/R.Foulis, 1906 Watson, 1910 Watson

Interlachen - 1910 Watson

Royal Montreal - ? Dunn, 1913 Colt

Kanawaki - 1913 Murray

Royal Ottawa - ? Bendelow

Rosedale - 1895 Bendelow

Lambton - 1902 Cummings

Mississauga - 1905 Cummings

Scarboro - 1913 Cummings

CC of Buffalo - ?

Lake Geneva - 1897 R.Foulis
« Last Edit: June 26, 2008, 10:00:40 AM by Tom MacWood »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Lakes 1913
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2008, 09:24:56 PM »
Not sure if you're leaving out Onwentsia on purpose, but early on, excepting Chicago GC, it would be hard to argue there was a more influential midwest club, having hosted the US Open, Amateur and Western Am

Thomas MacWood

Re: Great Lakes 1913
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2008, 09:53:19 PM »
Sean
No, my mistake. I know the Foulis brothers, Whigham and Tweedie were involved but I'm not sure how and when every thing took place.

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Lakes 1913
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2008, 09:55:23 PM »
 8)

Inverness and Ottawa Park in Toledo Ohio

The legend of Inverness Club in Toledo began in the late 1800s, when Sylvanus Pierson Jermain became interested in developing public parklands. This interest led to the formation of a board of park commissioners of which he was the president for four terms.

After persuading the board to purchase the 250 acres that became Ottawa Park, he created a nine-hole layout there in 1899, the first public golf course west of New York City and believed to be the first and thus olders municipal course in the country.

Fellow golfers at Ottawa Park had discussed with Sylvanus their desire for a private golf club. One of them, J. H. Bellows, said that the land had to be adaptable; it couldn't be too far from Toledo proper; and there had to be trolley service to it. Orus Jones, another golfer and investor in the club, liked an 80-acre plot on Dorr Street at the end of the trolley line.

After they walked the land, they decided it would make a fitting course. In 1903, their discussions culminated in signing the Articles of Incorporation of the Inverness Club Company at the law offices of Marshall & Fraser in the Spitzer Building.

It is said that the 1920 U.S. Open played at Inverness Club was Sylvanus' baby. The competitors came from all over, with Ted Ray and Harry Vardon of Great Britain finishing first and second. Jermain, always the visionary, thought it would be great to have an international golfing event. Samuel Ryder of England donated the cup, and one of the biggest rivalries in international golf, the Ryder Cup, was born. All of this was chronicled both in the June 29, 1931, Toledo News-Bee and a 1931 publication of the Professional Golf Association of America.

However,  the 18-hole "Ottawa Park" course at the Ottawa Park Golf Course facility in Toledo, Ohio also featured large in SP Jermain's plans of public golf access, as it held the first USGA AM Publinx Championship in 1922.   However, the Ottawa Park golf course was really in play before 1899, as many of the original 9 holes were first carved out of forest lands by local apple orchard farmers.  

p.s. I grew up about 1/4 mile west in Old Orchard..

Ottawa Park became an early central part of the Toledo Parks System.. SP got it enlarged to 18 holes in 1908 and is rumored to have tinkered with it with input from Donald Ross for many years.  The par 5, fourth hole has been featured in various publications, including the USGA's official magazine, for its challenging and interesting design.  By today's standards its 5,079 yards of golf from the longest tees challenges many for a par of 71 with course rating of 64.2 and slope rating of 110.  

Another of Sylvanus' accomplishments was his writing the American Code of Golf, a modern, simplified version of the St. Andrews rules for golf. It proved to be quite popular with golfers during the early part of the 20th century.

SP with Bobby Jones


Lord Byron was THE PRO at Inverness for a while, can anyone ID these other guys?



or these guys?
« Last Edit: June 25, 2008, 10:20:34 PM by Steve Lang »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Lakes 1913
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2008, 09:58:46 PM »
According to a Wiki article, CC of Buffalo was redesigned by Travis in 1911.

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Lakes 1913
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2008, 10:38:27 PM »
the Euclid Club appears to have gained some influence in its brief history, although by 1913 it was almost dug up.

I believe Mayfield was ultimately a splinter from Euclid. Speaking of Euclid, doesn't its long time pro Bertie Way deserve some credit for Mayfield?

 

Thomas MacWood

Re: Great Lakes 1913
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2008, 11:40:11 PM »
the Euclid Club appears to have gained some influence in its brief history, although by 1913 it was almost dug up.

I believe Mayfield was ultimately a splinter from Euclid. Speaking of Euclid, doesn't its long time pro Bertie Way deserve some credit for Mayfield?

 

Euclid should definitely be considered. Its my impression Way built Mayfield and was the pro for several years, so he should probably be given credit. 

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Lakes 1913
« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2008, 06:39:07 AM »
Tom,

I think your list is pretty accurate from everything that I have read from that era.

If you read the articles that were where written about Old Elm at that time, there is good reason to think that Old Elm might have been way ahead of every other club in the great lakes region, and indeed the entire west at that time, from the standpoint of turf quality and really sound design.

And to this day Old Elm has remained pretty much the same, except the first hole was lengthened by moving the green back.

Thomas MacWood

Re: Great Lakes 1913
« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2008, 09:03:29 AM »
Steve
It may be a mistake, but I haven't included any nine-hole courses. I believe Ottawa Park was expanded to 18 after 1913.

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Lakes 1913
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2008, 11:38:24 AM »
In the Chicago area, Ravisloe and Idlewild both date back to pre 1910 and were quite good.  Not sure offhand when Flossmoor was built.

tlavin

Re: Great Lakes 1913
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2008, 11:48:54 AM »
In the Chicago area, Ravisloe and Idlewild both date back to pre 1910 and were quite good.  Not sure offhand when Flossmoor was built.

Flossmoor was built in 1899 and opened as the Homewood Country Club.

Dan Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Lakes 1913
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2008, 01:39:39 PM »
The Homewood course opened for play in 1900, the club was formed in 1899.  Named Homewood after the train stop, the Homewood stop later became Ravisloe and the Flossmoor stop became Flossmoor.  Same train stopped at Olympia Fields later on. 

Likewise Old Elm had its official opening in 1914.  Colt's Chicago visit was in Spring 1913 and Ross built the course that year.  There may have been some play in October 1913 but judging by the Oct. 1913 photos in the clubhouse the course construction was not yet complete as of that time.  As Bradley noted Old Elm clearly set a new standard in the Chicago area and Ross by virtue of this work became the architect of choice in Chicago for the next decade as many clubs began upgrading or building new courses to the new modern standard (eg Beverly, Skokie, Exmoor, Ravisloe, Evanston, Calumet and Oak Park).  Its not clear though the extent to which the "architecture" at Old Elm was influential.  The course was very exclusive and remains so today existing almost solely for the enjoyment of its members and has not hosted any tournaments of significance that I am aware of. 
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Dan Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Lakes 1913
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2008, 05:34:51 PM »
The best courses in Chicago in 1913 were:

Chicago Golf Club:  the original Macdonald course as improved by the Foulis brothers not to be confused with the current day Raynor course.  Noted for its greens and bunkering. 

Glen View Club:  the original Tweedie course prior to 1914 bunker modernization and Flynn's 1920's work.  Much of the original routing still intact.  Tweedie's original 11th hole crossed the North Branch 3 times in route to the site of the present 12th green.  Par 3 11 put in before 1905.  Old photos show cops and cross bunkers in abundance. 

Homewood/Flossmoor: another Tweedie original (or is it?) somewhat changed between 1909 and 1913 Western Am. when the current 1st, 2nd and 3rd holes were built with later changes by Harry Collis to accomodate a course rerouting due to a clubhouse move after a fire in 1914.  Course at its peak under Collis in the 1920's when it hosted the PGA and US Am.  New 13th hole and 8th green recently opened for play.

Midlothian: another Tweedie original that underwent substantial open doctoring prior to the 1914 US Open only to be roundly criticized. 

Onwentsia:  credited to H. J. Whigham and Robert Foulis in the 1901 Green Book.  "Modernized" in 1913 or 1914 and most recently by Tom Doak. 

Idlewild was pretty new then and hosted the 1912 Western Open.  Credited to the the Clubs pro Al Naylor it later saw the hand of Langford. 

Other courses which are considered top tier today probably didn't qualify as such then, eg Beverly, Skokie and Exmoor pre-Ross.   

Old Elm (1913 or 1914 whatever date you want to use) really marks a transition from these older courses to a newer modern style of architecture.  This is hammered home when you look at the 25 clubs that formed the Chicago District Golf Association in 1914 and see the extent to which almost every one of them was substantially updated in the following decade. 
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Thomas MacWood

Re: Great Lakes 1913
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2008, 06:40:08 PM »
Toronto - 1912 Colt

CC of Detroit - 1911 Colt

Detroit GC - 1898 Way, 1912 Barker

Mayfield - 1911 Barker/Way

Oakwood (Cleveland) - 1905 Boggs, 1913 Bendelow

Euclid - 1901 Way, 1906 Way/Borton

Youngstown - 1911 Barker

Chicago GC - 1895 Macdonald/Whigham/Forgan, 1908-10 D.Foulis/Macdonald

Onwentsia - 1896 J.Foulis/R.Foulis, 1898 Whigham/R.Foulis, 1913 Watson

Old Elm - 1913 Colt

Ravisloe - 1902 J.Foulis/R.Foulis, 1910 Watson

Beverly - 1908 G.O'Neil

Skokie - 1904 Bendelow, 1910 Barker

Westmoreland - 1912 Watson

Midlothian - 1898 Tweedie

Glen View - 1897 Tweedie

Homewood (Flossmoor) - 1899 Tweedie, 1910 Watson

Minikahda - 1898 J.Foulis/R.Foulis, 1906 Watson, 1910 Watson

Idlewild - 1909 Naylor

Interlachen - 1910 Watson

Royal Montreal - ? Dunn, 1913 Colt

Kanawaki - 1913 Murray

Royal Ottawa - ? Bendelow

Rosedale - 1895 Bendelow

Lambton - 1902 Cumming

Mississauga - 1905 Cumming

Scarboro - 1913 Cumming

CC of Buffalo - ?

Lake Geneva - 1897 R.Foulis
« Last Edit: June 26, 2008, 09:53:05 PM by Tom MacWood »

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Lakes 1913
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2008, 07:18:02 PM »
Tom,

I haven't had time to read this thread in its entirety, but I can offer this: It's George Cumming... not Cummings.

For the sake of historical accuracy, of course!

Best,
jeffmingay.com

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Lakes 1913
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2008, 10:13:59 PM »
Jeff is right it is Cumming and even though I am a member of Scarboro I doubt the original course would have been in the upper tier.  The redesign work by Tille was done around 1925.  At an exhibition match in 1920 Vardon and Ray commented that the course could use some strengthening - apparently this was one of the reasons that the club decided to strengthen the course.

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Lakes 1913
« Reply #24 on: June 27, 2008, 12:52:23 AM »
Tom:
I suspect given the date, much of the Canadian side will be dominated by
George Cumming -


 Is there an echo in here?

I am thinking that Jackson Park should be included. Given the company, Kent C.C. probably rates inclusion. 

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back