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Paul_Turner

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Re: Great Lakes 1913
« Reply #25 on: June 27, 2008, 07:23:52 AM »
If anyone has a photo of Old Elm,  I'd love to see it.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Thomas MacWood

Re: Great Lakes 1913
« Reply #26 on: June 27, 2008, 07:27:16 AM »
Jeff is right it is Cumming and even though I am a member of Scarboro I doubt the original course would have been in the upper tier.  The redesign work by Tille was done around 1925.  At an exhibition match in 1920 Vardon and Ray commented that the course could use some strengthening - apparently this was one of the reasons that the club decided to strengthen the course.

Wayne
I take it you aren't a big fan of Cumming the golf architect. How much of his original routing did Tilly use at Scarboro? Prior to WWI the courses that hosted the Canadian Open were Royal Montreal, Toronto, Royal Ottawa, Lambton and Rosedale, so maybe Scarboro wasn't that good.

Does anyone know the history of Royal Ottawa's course?

Thomas MacWood

Re: Great Lakes 1913
« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2008, 10:13:55 AM »
A few things standout to me.

* Before Colt came and Barker built Mayfield there was pretty slim pickings in the Great Lakes.

* There is a lot of talk of the Amateur architects but the Midwest is rarely mentioned, and Tweedie is never mentioned. You make a case the Tweedie was just as important as Macdonald in the very early years, probably more important.

* The total absence of the name Ross.

* Should we know more about George Cumming?

* The activity of Watson and Bendelow, particularly Watson. Watson appears to be the premier architect in the Midwest. I believe he was also the premier architect in the West during this time as well.

Toronto - 1912 Colt

CC of Detroit - 1911 Colt

Detroit GC - 1898 Way, 1912 Barker

Mayfield - 1911 Barker/Way

Oakwood (Cleveland) - 1905 Boggs, 1913 Bendelow

Euclid - 1901 Way, 1906 Way/Borton

Youngstown - 1911 Barker

Chicago GC - 1895 Macdonald/Whigham/Forgan, 1908-10 D.Foulis/Macdonald

Onwentsia - 1896 J.Foulis/R.Foulis, 1898 Whigham/R.Foulis, 1913 Watson

Old Elm - 1913 Colt

Ravisloe - 1902 J.Foulis/R.Foulis, 1910 Watson

Beverly - 1908 G.O'Neil

Skokie - 1904 Bendelow, 1910 Barker

Westmoreland - 1912 Watson

Midlothian - 1898 Tweedie

Glen View - 1897 Tweedie

Homewood (Flossmoor) - 1899 Tweedie, 1910 Watson

Minikahda - 1898 J.Foulis/R.Foulis, 1906 Watson, 1910 Watson

Idlewild - 1909 Naylor

Interlachen - 1910 Watson

Royal Montreal - ? Dunn, 1913 Colt

Kanawaki - 1913 Murray

Royal Ottawa - ? Bendelow

Rosedale - 1895 Bendelow

Lambton - 1902 Cumming

Mississauga - 1905 Cumming

Scarboro - 1913 Cumming

CC of Buffalo - ?

Lake Geneva - 1897 R.Foulis

Kent- 1899 Simmonds, 1910 Bendelow?

Wayne_Kozun

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Re: Great Lakes 1913
« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2008, 07:38:10 PM »
Jeff is right it is Cumming and even though I am a member of Scarboro I doubt the original course would have been in the upper tier.  The redesign work by Tille was done around 1925.  At an exhibition match in 1920 Vardon and Ray commented that the course could use some strengthening - apparently this was one of the reasons that the club decided to strengthen the course.

Wayne
I take it you aren't a big fan of Cumming the golf architect. How much of his original routing did Tilly use at Scarboro? Prior to WWI the courses that hosted the Canadian Open were Royal Montreal, Toronto, Royal Ottawa, Lambton and Rosedale, so maybe Scarboro wasn't that good.

Does anyone know the history of Royal Ottawa's course?
I don't have a problem with Cumming - he was probably THE Canadian, or at least Ontario, golf architect in the first quarter of the 20th century prior to Stanley Thompson coming on the scene.  I think the original Scarboro course wasn't of a higher calibre.  Prior to Tillie's renovation the club bought additional land which now consists of the 1st green, entire 2nd hole and 3rd tee.  Tille used some of the original routing, the signature 4th hole (formerly 3rd) was left intact.  The original course was relatively short and not much of a challenge to the pros at the time, at least that was the opinion of both Vardon and Ray after their exhibition at Scarboro in 1920.

A few interesting tidbits that relate to architects at Scarboro.  Around 1910 Toronto GC was looking for land to build a new course.  Apparently they had several people, including Cumming, take a look at the land that is now Scarboro and weren't crazy about it.  They decided to move from their course in the east end of Toronto (within a few hundred yards from the home of Stanley Thompson and his family) and moved west of the city.  That left a lack of a golf course at the east end of the city so Scarboro was formed in 1912 - they brought in Cumming to do the layout and he approved of the same land that he had dissed a few years earlier.

The Scarboro reno job was to have been done by Willie Park Jr. but he returned to Scotland in late 1924, fell ill and never returned to North America.  Rumour has it that Scarboro called up the USGA to recommend an architect and they suggested Tillie.

One other note on Cumming - It is hard to know how good his work is as all of his remaining tracks have had many changes.  He was a longtime pro at the Toronto Golf Club but when Toronto built its new course in 1912 they brought in Colt from England rather than have Cumming layout the course - does that say something?

An excellent resource for early Canadian golf courses is Jim Barclay's Golf in Canada:  A History.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Great Lakes 1913
« Reply #29 on: June 29, 2008, 10:19:06 AM »
Tom,

Do we know what Barker did at Skokie in 1910?

It's one of those clubs with a somewhat confusing design history.  My understanding is that members had built a nine-holer prior to 1900, then Bendelow came around 1905 and created an 18-hole course, and then Donald Ross came and largely built that one over in 1914...and then later Langford/Moreau did some revisions.

What was Barker's contribution?

Thanks

Thomas MacWood

Re: Great Lakes 1913
« Reply #30 on: June 29, 2008, 02:31:47 PM »
Mike
Barker was asked to make suggestions on how the course could be strengthened. One of his suggestions was to purchase some adjoining land, which they did. I don't have any of the details of how the course was rearranged but I do know the result was the front nine was lengthened and the back nine shortened.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Great Lakes 1913
« Reply #31 on: June 29, 2008, 10:24:27 PM »
Mike
Barker was asked to make suggestions on how the course could be strengthened. One of his suggestions was to purchase some adjoining land, which they did. I don't have any of the details of how the course was rearranged but I do know the result was the front nine was lengthened and the back nine shortened.

Tom,

Thanks for the additional info.

It seems that Skokie was one of those clubs that right out of the gate was never quite satisfied with what they had.   Like a number of other courses that come to mind, including Gulph Mills here, it seems to be one with obviously varied pedigrees and certainly an actively dynamic architectural history.

Thomas MacWood

Re: Great Lakes 1913
« Reply #32 on: June 30, 2008, 06:12:54 AM »
There is one major difference between Skokie and Gulph Mills, when they called in Langford in 1938 he gave the course a single homogeneous style.

TEPaul

Re: Great Lakes 1913
« Reply #33 on: June 30, 2008, 08:37:00 AM »
Gulph Mill's architectural history is a pretty interesting one that's not that uncommon. It evolved for a number of fairly logical reasons common to old courses:

1. The club had no practice range and it blew the opportunity to buy land for one across the street thereby compromising a few original Ross holes to make room for a practice range (which has never been very good anyway. ;) ).

2. Two of Ross's original holes (#8, #9) were virtually unplayable for probably over half the membership.

3. Two of Ross's original holes (#7, #14) just weren't good holes.

4. In 1927 Ross came back in himself and did some redesigning on a few of his greens (#2, #16, #18)

Perry Maxwell's three redesign visits in the 1930s created improved greens (#7, #8, #10, #11, #14).

RTJ's redesigns (#9, #10, #12) are a mixed bag done to create a driving range.

As far as homogeneity is concerned I would much rather give up on that for the Maxwell redesigns we got from him. #8 particularly has often been considered one of the best short par 4s in the district---it's a Maxwell prototype hole that might have been first tried at GMGC. The back 2/3 of #10 green are some of the best "Maxwell Rolls" one can find, his #11 and #14 greens are really good contoured surfaces.

Green #7 is a Hanse/Paul creation that has met with some extreme controversy----eg some just love it and some really hate it!   ;)

We also have a new practice putting green. For a couple of years we asked for input from the membership as to what they wanted in a practice putting green and of course noone ever bothered to make any suggestions despite being asked constantly. The day it was to be shaped by Gil, since we had no plan for what it would like like, I thought up a scheme for it on the 20 minute drive from my house to the golf club using basically a section from two greens on the course (#3, #10). That's what Gil did and of course that green has met with extreme controversy too  :P---eg some just love it and others just hated it even though the ones who hated it have mellowed a bit.

Consequently, whenever anyone talks to me about either the 7th green or the practice putting green I automatically QUOTE both Mackenzie AND Macdonald, that the idea behind good golf architecture is to CREATE some inspired CONTROVERSY on purpose!!!    ;D

Actually, the recently expanded 13th fairway and the concept for that hole which was also me and Gil has just met with some really EXTREME CONTROVERSY----eg some hate it so much one member almost physically accosted me the other day, but other members seem to be OK with it.

So in the all important architectural "controversy" department I'm batting a stunning 3 for 3 at GMGC.  :)
« Last Edit: June 30, 2008, 09:01:52 AM by TEPaul »

Dan Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great Lakes 1913
« Reply #34 on: June 30, 2008, 10:26:47 AM »
Having recently visited Skokie I was struck by the degree to which it has one style and look.  I didn't see the course before Ron Pritchard was there so don't know how much credit for that goes to him or the Langford for integrating the Ross holes with his work.  The amazing part of it is the fact if you look at the best holes they are a mix of Ross and Langford originals and I didn't feel there was a weak link in the bunch.  Perhaps not the most dynamic terrain for golf but what natural features there are were utilized to the max.  The Club credits Ross more than Langford for the course, but having seen many Langford courses the overall look is definitely more Langford than Ross.  I'd love the hear if the Ross experts see that issue differently. 
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

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