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George Pazin

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Re: I heard the craziest thing this weekend...
« Reply #50 on: June 24, 2008, 02:11:37 PM »
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George states:
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I, for one, am thankful for what the evil pharmaceutical and oil companies provide for me and I do not begrudge them making money out of it, it is an exchange I enter into willingly.

Al Capone would love this statement.  Does anyone think that along with their research and advancements, that truly evil and unethical things are done by pharma or oil?  It is OK if they are sometimes unethical (leave out evil if you are uncomfortable with that) as long as I get something in exchange...? 


I can't even begin to respond to such a statement, and even if I did, it wouldn't matter, as your mind is made up. As I said before, I'm bowing out.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I heard the craziest thing this weekend...
« Reply #51 on: June 24, 2008, 03:04:14 PM »
Jim Franklin,

With all due respect, please allow me to respond to my friend Dick Daley.  Then, like George, I too will bow out.

RJ Daley,

You say to me "You are using sophistry (what is new?)  Yes, stamps have only gone up...they are a license or permit to use a government service, they are not a commodity that floats with supply and demand.  The price of BS seems rather constant in your market place, though...".

My friend, debating with you is as easy as shooting decoys in a bathtub.  You prove my points over and over.

Rather than counter my argument with reason, you try to diminish me by calling me a sophist.   You should at least first invest in learning what sophistry is (subtly deceptive reasoning or argumentation) before charging one with it.  Let me tell you, there is nothing subtle about my reasoning and I have absolutely no need to be deceptive.

When you say "they are not a commodity that floats with supply and demand" referring to stamps as being different than oil, you are acknowledging that oil is a commodity whose price is largely governed by the laws of supply and demand.  A secondary point might be that perhaps you don't really understand the terminology you're using; i.e. the reason first class delivery service in not commoditized is because of the government monopoly that protects its Postal Service from competition, making it somewhat immune to the laws of supply and demand.

Now, you attacked me because I posited that BIG GOVERNMENT (and yes, just like nearly every one of our founding fathers, I think it is a fearsome and necessarily corrupt force), by greatly restricting the domestic SUPPLY of oil, gas, coal, and nuclear energy for two decades has put us in our current painful position.  Perhaps you gain greater psychological satisfaction by making BIG OIL the boogieman.  By the way, that boat has long sailed- the Dems are now blaming one of the other horsemen of the apocalypse- the greedy speculators and hedge fund managers of Wall Street.  Talk about unadulterated BS from the socialist market place of ideas!  And who is the sophist?

And let's not forget about that other side of the equation you inadvertently referred to.  Do you think that China and India taking hundreds of millions of people out of poverty into relative prosperity may be having an impact on DEMAND?  What do you think happens when you add a few hundred thousand cars annually in a couple of countries?  Might adding millions of jobs and hundreds of thousands of cars be driving up the demand for oil, gas, and other energy sources?  You may wish to peruse any introductory book into economics, but when the demand goes up, absent a fundamental shift in supply, lo and behold, the price goes up!

But no, you rather believe that a president you despise or a few "fat cat" BIG OIL CEOs controlling less than 5% of the oil can get up one morning and say, "hey let's triple the price of crude and see what mayhem we can cause".  I am sure the oil boys look forward to being called up in front of congress to be pilloried by our honorable public servants just in time for the evening news cycle.  You may be able to live with the cognitive dissonance that's required for this level of thinking, but, at least, it might be appropriate to first look in the mirror before charging me with deceit.

There is one other thing I find rather curious about your reasoning.  You seem to think that BIG OIL has an obligation of some type, ethical or maybe even legal, to supply as much gasoline as the consumer might like at a lower price.  If they run the operation to maximize profits- e.g. shutting down or disposing of a refinery for any of a number of valid business reasons- that somehow this is inappropriate or illegal.

Let me ask you, when you and your cohorts negotiated union contracts and withheld labor in order to drive up its price, was that somehow appropriate, ethical, legal, etc.?  Certainly you would never argue that the supply of critical public services is any less important than the supply of gasoline?  I mean, I can always ride a bike to the grocery store or even to the golf course if gasoline is too damned expensive.  But if someone is breaking into my car or my apartment is on fire, whom do I call if there is a bout of the blue flu going around?  The same powerful unions make sure that cities and communities can't contract with potential private providers of police and fire protection services.  So, the issue really isn't one of curtailing supply, but of who is doing the curtailing.

Lastly, you say "For what it is worth, your tactics are becoming boring and predictable to tag on Al Gore in the same issue and philosophy with Hugo Chavez and place Obama, Reid and Pelosi in the same bunker as Hugo or Fidel, fluffing up his so called lie.  That is basically a version of "swiftboating".  Did you hear about it, the public is getting on to and tired of that crap."

You mean the swiftboat vets who gave first hand testimony were lying?  I was under the impression that someone offered $1 Million to anyone who could convincingly refute the primary charges, and that to date no one has stepped up.  Must be another of those urban myths propagated by the raving mad Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity.

I do believe that the Dems mentioned (and I could add a half dozen others like Conyers and Shummer) are much more comfortable with the socialists/commies I noted than with most Americans.  As much as you are sick and tired of "that crap", I suspect that more are tired of the unadultarated variety you like to fling about.  The last popularity poll I saw for the current Democrat congress has them well below your hated president.

I know, you can't wait for the November election so that I and my kind get our comeuppance.  Believe me, my friend, it will have a comparatively lower impact on me than it will for the poor saps who are buying into the false hope of change by going to the same time proven failed policies of BIG GOVERNMENT tax and spend.               


Dan King,

During a case study (Chiquita bananas) in a seminar in international business years ago, I playfully suggested that a multinational corporation, when confronted with a law in another country that materially affects its operation there, should consider the benefits and costs of complying with that law.  We had a few students from the Master of Public Administration program taking that course and their reaction was priceless.  They were, of course, aghast.  These folks could talk endlessly about programs to promote social justice, yet they had the hardest time with simple financial concepts as the time value of money.  They thought a cost/benefit analysis was a decision tree of dos and don'ts with no quantitative or statistical considerations!

I do think that corporations have certain institutional morals and ethics that they try to follow.  These are derived more or less directly from the board of directors, officers, shareholders, consumers, and where they do business.  Making money is paramount, but there are other important considerations as well.  And we should all be careful about who we are calling greedy and unethical.  I think that over 50% of Americans own shares of corporations.  When we point that finger at BIG OIL, we could literally be pointing it at ourselves!

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I heard the craziest thing this weekend...
« Reply #52 on: June 24, 2008, 03:56:53 PM »
Lou -

I certainly don't mind you taking over my thread. Your response was well written and thought out. Keep 'em coming.

Jim
Mr Hurricane

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I heard the craziest thing this weekend...
« Reply #53 on: June 24, 2008, 07:15:22 PM »
Lou, l have to give you one thing, your efforts to write these polemics are astounding.  I don't know, maybe over time I'll try to answer all your stuff. 

But, in the interest of brevity, how about this?  I'll stick with the accusation of your using sophist tactics (subtle deceit, deception, for the sake of argument, no matter if your even believe the stuff you use as point to support your arguments.  The sophist is concerned with the debate, cares less about the truth, and it is all about the tactics, what ever trickery, obfuscation or deception it takes to win the debate).  Do I have that basic understanding of sophistry correct?

So, you go into your Fox News, Hanity and Limbaugh talking points on the idea of some goof made some bragadoccio comment that 1 million bucks would be paid to anyone disproving the swiftboat accusations.  Guess what?  Just about every mainstream media, and oh yeah the United States Navy, Vice Admiral Ronald A. Route, the Navy inspector general submitted a full investigation into the validity of the medals etc.  Of course he is not allowed to accept this bogus award.  And, if it were so, about a 100 news and investigative reporting agencies ought to cut up that million frijoles. 

What I can't believe Lou, is you keep spouting this sort of deceptive sophist stuff, years after the debunking.  Sort of like Cheney sticking to the idea that Saddam was somehow responsible for 9/11.  Lou, people have access to information, you know?  Like Lincoln said, "you can't pray a lie".  You are stuck on sophistry in most of your stuff and you somehow think the world will never catch up and figure it out. 

Lou, you are a very smart man.  I actually agree with some of your ideas and principles.  But, how can I ever give any of them real consideration when you keep reverting to these polemic exercises in sophistry, that take us no where but in the same dumper that the whole lot of your favored leaders have led us into, for 8 freaking long years.   People are going to change to something else.  Maybe it isn't any good either.  But, diminishing numbers of folk are going to continue to see this tangled cess pool of current administration without 'trying' to do something to change it up. 

As to your other umpteenine paragraphs of stuff, I'm too tired, let someone else debunk it.  Except that to say the "blue flu" thing is also sophistry.  Blue flu is a number of cops calling in sick, and the supervisors who have been carrying clipboards around the halls of the PD and swilling coffee had to get off their dead asses and get out of the office and go answer a few calls on the street.  Wow  ::)  but the action in our case lasted exactly 24 hours until the public realised we had serious issues that weren't being resolved (ignored actually) until the hype of it all got the public's attention and they demanded that the city get back to good faith bargaining.  And, we won the unfair labor practice charges through a mediatior that insued over that matter with a finding that the city did not bargain in good faith and were ordered to do so.  Actually it isn't all that different than what swiftboaters do in a way... lie and refuse to engage in good faith. 
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I heard the craziest thing this weekend...
« Reply #54 on: June 24, 2008, 10:40:04 PM »
Well, then Dick, I assume you'd like to see Barack Obama behind bars for that bribe he took from lobbyist, fundraiser and now felon Tony Rezko.


As long as you are also tossing McCain in the clink with him for his role in the Keating S&L mess.  In fact, let's toss out every member of congress who ever gave a moment's thought to running for president if they've ever done anything improper as a public official.  Guess what, I don't know that you have anyone left in either party that's eligible to run.  We might need to drop down to the level of city council to find an uncorrupted politician (but not my city council)
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I heard the craziest thing this weekend...
« Reply #55 on: June 25, 2008, 10:49:06 AM »
Just when I thought I was out... they pull me back in.

Shivas writes:
McCain was cleared of any wrongdoing on that - by a committee chaired by liberals.

Senator Howell Heflin could be called a lot of things, but liberal would never be one of them.

And while I'm back in, Lou, I'd be more careful of bringing up T. Boone Pickens $1,000,000 offer. Sen. Kerry took him up on the offer and then Mr. Pickens added numerous conditions for collecting. His technique only worked on Fox News.
 
Cheers,
Dan King
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I see Senator Kennedy has changed his position on offshore drilling.
 -- Former Sen. Howell Heflin (D-AL), after seeing a National Enquirer photo of Sen. Edward Kennedy (D-MA) on top of a woman in a boat.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2008, 10:51:40 AM by Dan King »

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I heard the craziest thing this weekend...
« Reply #56 on: June 25, 2008, 12:10:30 PM »
Given how the state of the U.S. Attorney's office prosecution efforts of Dems has proceded under the Bush Admin., I hardly think they'd not go after Obama like Rovian pit bulls, if their were a scintilla of evidence to charge him.  Although smear is always an option for those guys.  Unfortunately, I will concede however that this all seems like Chicago politics and power, as it has always been.

As for the Mozilo, Countrywide mess, a pox on all of them, dems and reps. 
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I heard the craziest thing this weekend... New
« Reply #57 on: June 25, 2008, 12:24:25 PM »
If you believe all Democrats are liberal and all Republicans conservative, then I guess you can call Sen. Howell Heflin a liberal. It makes no sense in the traditional meaning of words, but I've never been much of a stickler for tradition either.

I'd also love to hear your definition of Democratic operative that somehow manages to include Bob Bennett.

Keating gave more money to McCain than any other senator. He also participated in strategy meetings called by Keating. The McCains also went on vacations with the Keatings, with Keating picking up the tab. McCain did meet with bank regulators on behalf of Keating twice. The Senate Ethics Committee would have been negligent if they hadn't at least investigated McCain.

Cheers,
Dan King
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The appearance of it was wrong. It's a wrong appearance when a group of senators appear in a meeting with a group of regulators, because it conveys the impression of undue and improper influence. And it was the wrong thing to do.
 --John McCain

« Last Edit: June 25, 2008, 12:39:45 PM by Dan King »

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